مسجد اقصیٰ کا زیرزمین وہ حصہ جوحضرت سلیمان علیہ سّلام کے حکم پرتعمیر کیاگیا

[Citizen X]

Your negating Mairaj Sharif and negating the holiness of Al Aqsa is your own opinion....... Either you can keep that opinion all your life or you can strive to find the answers in holy Quran and Ahadeeth ..... It’s your own choice .... As you will be answerable for your own deeds .....

I see this as a cheap tap out from an argument. There was a time, and not very long along. I believed everything you believed but just scratching the surface, I found out that everything is not as it seems or has been told to us.

From then on. I keep my mind open if you have a logical argument that proves your point of view, please present it and if it appeals to my logic I will change my stance.

And BTW you bring in "As you will be answerable for your own deeds" as somehow believing in Aqsa and Jerusalem is a key pillar of faith in Islam? Why would say something like this?

And lets say for arguments sake, say I am totally wrong ( I could be ) and don't believe in the holiness of these things? Do you think that should be a grave sin, so much so I will be question on the day on why I did not believe in these places holiness and possibly land in hell?

 

[Eigoroll]

After thoroughly watching this clip, I will give an advice to you in your own word "In fact Islam is against blind faith and worship and asks you again and again to use your reasoning. Don't just assume what ever you've been told or read to be final and the end all of everything"

Even a layman like me can rip his argument apart let alone a scholar. I gave you the answer of every point you raised yet you came up with the video of someone else to convince me. Here is the sample for you:

You said there was no blessings in that area. Even this moulvi you posted is admitting that there are authentic hadiths showing that our Prophet (PBUH) revered that place for it history of hosting the score of prophets and Allah's signs on that land.

This is just one example. As I said I can turn this video into shreds.
Remember, don't blindly believe what you have been told. It's about time you start practicing what you preach.

 

[Citizen X]

You said there was no blessings in that area. Even this moulvi you posted is admitting that there are authentic hadiths showing that our Prophet (PBUH) revered that place for it history of hosting the score of prophets and Allah's signs on that land.

Having respect for a place because it was a place of many Prophets, is different from being holy or having any real religious significance.
P.S : What Allah's "signs"?

Even a layman like me can rip his argument apart let alone a scholar.

Go right ahead, I'm always open to logical arguments.

Remember, don't blindly believe what you have been told. It's about time you start practicing what you preach.

I grew up believing everything you believe and all the fantastical folklore stories about magical journeys and winged horses that come along with it because that is what I was told and that is what I read. When first presented with the idea that things are not as they seem obviously like everyone, I dismissed it. But when confronted with it again here and there again. I decided to look into it, and lets say after a long journey of research, reading and listening over a period of time. This started to make more sense than the folklore I grew up believing.

 

[Eigoroll]

How do you know the hadeeth we are reading is actually the prophet's sayings. Because Allah only took responsibility of the Holy quran words. Humans even changes Bible and gospel which is Allah's book so how you will trust on man made books which is ahadeeth
Only those Hadeeth will be accepted who must be in accordance of quran, not even 1 line addition nor any subtraction.

Having respect for a place because it was a place of many Prophets, is different from being holy or having any real religious significance.
P.S : What Allah's "signs"?


Go right ahead, I'm always open to logical arguments.


I grew up believing everything you believe and all the fantastical folklore stories about magical journeys and winged horses that come along with it because that is what I was told and that is what I read. When first presented with the idea that things are not as they seem obviously like everyone, I dismissed it. But when confronted with it again here and there again. I decided to look into it, and lets say after a long journey of research, reading and listening over a period of time. This started to make more sense than the folklore I grew up believing.

"I grew up believing everything you believe and all the fantastical folklore stories about magical journeys and winged horses that come along with it because that is what I was told and that is what I read. When first presented with the idea that things are not as they seem obviously like everyone, I dismissed it. But when confronted with it again here and there again. I decided to look into it, and lets say after a long journey of research, reading and listening over a period of time. This started to make more sense than the folklore I grew up believing."

The Makkans didn't believe that either.

Well the the Quran is full of folklore stories. Including the story of a night journey which verse I shared with you. Yout bone of contention is that these things are not humanly possible so it can't happen.

 

[Eigoroll]

Having respect for a place because it was a place of many Prophets, is different from being holy or having any real religious significance.
P.S : What Allah's "signs"?

The birth of Essa (A.S). The different prophetic miracles in and around that area.

 

[Eigoroll]

Go right ahead, I'm always open to logical arguments.

Having respect for a place because it was a place of many Prophets, is different from being holy or having any real religious significance.
P.S : What Allah's "signs"?


Go right ahead, I'm always open to logical arguments.


I grew up believing everything you believe and all the fantastical folklore stories about magical journeys and winged horses that come along with it because that is what I was told and that is what I read. When first presented with the idea that things are not as they seem obviously like everyone, I dismissed it. But when confronted with it again here and there again. I decided to look into it, and lets say after a long journey of research, reading and listening over a period of time. This started to make more sense than the folklore I grew up believing.

You don't know what I believe and what my understanding of things are. Don't bother to project your experiences on me. I stick with reasoning and don't follow any molvi rather he is sitting in England or Pakistan. It seems like your long journey is at waste end with the conclusions you have come up with.

 

[Citizen X]

Well the the Quran is full of folklore stories. Including the story of a night journey which verse I shared with you. You bone of contention are that these things are not humanly possible so it can't happen. So why don't you straight up say that you don't believe in Quran and we would know where you stand.

Now you are just making up stuff and putting words into my mouth. I never said the night journey never happened, it just didn't happen as later on people start describing it as happening or the place from where it happened. The Quran mentions it in passing very briefly, all the other stories of winged horses and meeting prophets along the way are taken from hadith i.e unreliable at best if not outright false.

The birth of Essa (A.S). The different prophetic miracles in and around that area. Secondly, you said you did lot of research. If you had only done a comparative study of Quran you would have known that whenvere Allah talked about Jerusalem He mentioned it as a "land of blessings" and you wouldn't be saying "there is no blessings near that area".

There is no mention of Jerusalem in the Quran.

Even a layman like me can rip his argument apart

As I said I can turn this video into shreds

Still waiting for this aforementioned ripping apart into shreds ...............................?

"You don't know what I believe and what my understanding of things are."

But I can make a pretty good guess, since you are all in for now named masjid al Aqsa, winged horses and mentions of authentic hadith. Majority of your beliefs and religious practices come from these "authentic hadith" rather than the Quran.

 

[Eigoroll]

Having respect for a place because it was a place of many Prophets, is different from being holy or having any real religious significance.
P.S : What Allah's "signs"?


Go right ahead, I'm always open to logical arguments.


I grew up believing everything you believe and all the fantastical folklore stories about magical journeys and winged horses that come along with it because that is what I was told and that is what I read. When first presented with the idea that things are not as they seem obviously like everyone, I dismissed it. But when confronted with it again here and there again. I decided to look into it, and lets say after a long journey of research, reading and listening over a period of time. This started to make more sense than the folklore I grew up believing.

1-

Now you are just making up stuff and putting words into my mouth. I never said the night journey never happened, it just didn't happen as later on people start describing it as happening or the place from where it happened. The Quran mentions it in passing very briefly, all the other stories of winged horses and meeting prophets along the way are taken from hadith i.e unreliable at best if not outright false.



There is no mention of Jerusalem in the Quran.




Still waiting for this aforementioned ripping apart into shreds ...............................?

"You don't know what I believe and what my understanding of things are."

But I can make a pretty good guess, since you are all in for now named masjid al Aqsa, winged horses and mentions of authentic hadith. Majority of your beliefs and religious practices come from these "authentic hadith" rather than the Quran.

I am busy person so need time to answer to that:

1- He stopped talking about Jerusalem at 2:15 mark and went on talking about Abdul Malik without even providing bases for his reasoning that why Jerusalem is not important.

2- "I think the Hadith about Prophet talking about traveling to three mosques is fabricated...I am not sure about that but that what I would lean towards" He is not sure if the Hadith is fabricated but he would tend to believe that it is, without telling us that why that is the case.

3- "Jerusalem was not important except that Prophet (P.B.U.H) showed love towards it because of it being the place of Prophets of Judaic traditions" First, how does he know that prophet showed affection for that place? Is it in Quran? May be those Hadiths are also Fabricated? Well why would Prophet specifically mention that place if it has no significance. Prophet showed love for this place, Allah called it a holy land in verse 5:21 but, hey this place is not significant.

4- For every Muslim scholar before this Molvi it was a significant place, but this one guy says that it is not significant without providing any solid reasoning so he must be true. Very logical.

 

[Eigoroll]

There is no mention of Jerusalem in the Quran.

Yes, you are right. There is no name mentioned of the city

 

[Eigoroll]

Now you are just making up stuff and putting words into my mouth. I never said the night journey never happened, it just didn't happen as later on people start describing it as happening or the place from where it happened. The Quran mentions it in passing very briefly, all the other stories of winged horses and meeting prophets along the way are taken from hadith i.e unreliable at best if not outright false.

Firs of all, you said you don't believe in folklores. I pointed out that Quran is full of Folklores, and non-muslims don't believe them. Secondly, yes, there are fabricated Hadiths. Does it mean we discard the ones which have solid chains and considered suthentic. I do know there are many fabricated tales attached to night Journey, but this was not an original issue. The point was that if Jerusalem has any significance or not. The Al-Aqsa part is mentioned in Quran. You said it is not the Aqsa of today. I showed you that it is.

 

[Eigoroll]

But I can make a pretty good guess, since you are all in for now named masjid al Aqsa, winged horses and mentions of authentic hadith. Majority of your beliefs and religious practices come from these "authentic hadith" rather than the Quran.

I didn't say anything about a wing horse. And if that Hadith is strong, I would have no problem in believing that there was a winged horse because I have no doubts of the fact that Allah can create and do whatever he wants. The only Question is, is that Hadith trustworthy.
So much of our faith comes from the Hadith, including how to perform a prayer. So I don't know what are you trying to get at by targeting Hadiths?

 

[Citizen X]

He stopped talking about Jerusalem at 2:15 mark and went on talking about Abdul Malik without even providing bases for his reasoning that why Jerusalem is not important.

That was a secondary discussion as how Abdul Malik worked towards a muslim identity rather than regional or racial.

"I think the Hadith about Prophet talking about traveling to three mosques is fabricated...I am not sure about that but that what I would lean towards" He is not sure if the Hadith is fabricated but he would tend to believe that it is, without telling us that why that is the case.

All Hadith by their very nature are unreliable, if something good comes from it take it but don't base your religion and deen on them. But for this hadith the very wording of this hadith is non sensical. Talith ul Haramain. Which literally translates to 3rd of the 2 ??? If you speak any Arabic you will see how this doesn't make any sense 'ain in Arabic grammar is added to signify two. Bab door, Babain 2 doors, Abwab, many doors. So to say thalith ul haramain does not make any sense what so ever. Its like saying I like that third person from that couple.

May be those Hadiths are also Fabricated?

Maybe, like I said hadith by their very nature are unreliable.

Well why would Prophet specifically mention that place if it has no significance.

The prophet mentioned a lot of places and Prophets have been sent to every nation of this Earth so every place should be holy then. It is important only to us because the last few prophets came or were born there, still doesn't make it holy or so significant that we go to war over it.

Allah called it a holy land in verse 5:21 but, hey this place is not significant.

It was declared holy land for Bani Israel by Allah s.w.t and they were given that land for as long as they believed in the message of Allah and when they stopped, that contract ended with Bani Israel and that land was taken away from them.

I will concede that Jerusalem is a historical Islamic site at best. But not holy by any means

Also Saudi in its extreme wahabism and expansionism destroyed many important historical Islamic sites in and around Mecca and Medina and no one even squeaked about it.

 

[Citizen X]

Firs of all, you said you don't believe in folklores. I pointed out that Quran is full of Folklores, and non-muslims don't believe them. Secondly, yes, there are fabricated Hadiths. Does it mean we discard the ones which have solid chains and considered suthentic. I do know there are many fabricated tales attached to night Journey, but this was not an original issue. The point was that if Jerusalem has any significance or not. The Al-Aqsa part is mentioned in Quran. You said it is not the Aqsa of today. I showed you that it is.

I didn't say anything about a wing horse. And if that Hadith is strong, I would have no problem in believing that there was a winged horse because I have no doubts of the fact that Allah can create and do whatever he wants. The only Question is, is that Hadith trustworthy.
So much of our faith comes from the Hadith, including how to perform a prayer. So I don't know what are you trying to get at by targeting Hadiths?

Like I guessed very accurately. Hadith, hadith, hadith and then some hadith and almost no Quran. Like I predicted accurately majority of your belief system and religious practices are based on hadith, rather than the Quran.

Let me put it in a nut shell, there is no deen or commandment in the hadith. Hadith are to put it loosely a biographical record of the Prophet s.a.w life in snippets through out his life as seen through the eyes of 100s of people. Hadith was collected centuries after the prophet s.a.w passed away and their is no way possible to have an accurate record or rely on human memory going back centuries. So you cannot rely on hadith for any religious edicts. The only one disputable book we can rely on, is the Holy Quran which is the word of God himself as relayed to us through the Holy Prophet Muhammad s,a,w.

 

[Eigoroll]

But for this hadith the very wording of this hadith is non sensical

This shows me all I want to know about your research work. Did you read the Hadith yourself? Because the Hadith doesn’t use the word “Haramain” I can post the Hadith for you here but since you claim that you did a long journey then you should know what that Hadith said.
I am gonna stop here since I was under the impression that you really have done your homework and we are only talking about interpretation. But that is not the case. Find that Hadith and read it in Arabic. The Hadith is both in Muslim and Bukhari. don’t let this Molvi fool you. As you said don’t take the words as it is. Do your own research.

 

[Citizen X]

This shows me all I want to know about your research work. Did you read the Hadith yourself? Because the Hadith doesn’t use the word “Haramain” I can post the Hadith for you here but since you claim that you did a long journey then you should know what that Hadith said.

I agree you were right here. I should have doubled checked with the arabic text. Mufti was talking in general I thought he was quoting the hadith. No harm is admitting ones mistake when one is clearly wrong. I'm not a mufti or hafiz that I should know every Ayah and Hadith by memory.

BUT like I said hadith really doesn't matter.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question I asked another poster earlier.

For arguments sake, say I am totally wrong ( I could be ) and don't believe in the holiness of these things and they really? Do you think that should be a grave sin, so much so I will be questioned on the day on why I did not believe in these places holiness and possibly land in hell?

 

[Eigoroll]

I agree you were right here. I should have doubled checked with the arabic text. Mufti was talking in general I thought he was quoting the hadith. No harm is admitting ones mistake when one is clearly wrong. I'm not a mufti or hafiz that I should know every Ayah and Hadith by memory.

BUT like I said hadith really doesn't matter.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question I asked another poster earlier.

For arguments sake, say I am totally wrong ( I could be ) and don't believe in the holiness of these things and they really? Do you think that should be a grave sin, so much so I will be questioned on the day on why I did not believe in these places holiness and possibly land in hell?

Absolutely not my dear brother. I don’t think it is a grave sin. I believe it’s a matter of our understanding. All my debate with you was not to prove that you are a sinner. As I said, it is just the way we look at things. But the condition is that we must shed our preconceive notions to see things through.

 

[Citizen X]

Absolutely not my dear brother. I don’t think it is a grave sin.

That is also something I was trying to get at, something which is not part of our deen or iman and inconsequential when seen in context of the big picture then why are we so emotional and reactionary about willing to go over war and shed massive blood to protect it?

 

[Eigoroll]

That is also something I was trying to get at, something which is not part of our deen or iman and inconsequential when seen in context of the big picture then why are we so emotional and reactionary about willing to go over

That is also something I was trying to get at, something which is not part of our deen or iman and inconsequential when seen in context of the big picture then why are we so emotional and reactionary about willing to go over war and shed massive blood to protect it?

Are you talking about the Palestine conflict? If so then it is a separate issue which was not the point of this discussion. Let’s leave it for some other time.

 

[Citizen X]

Are you talking about the Palestine conflict? If so then it is a separate issue which was not the point of this discussion. Let’s leave it for some other time.

Not the conflict, but the physical mosque and land of Jerusalem.

 

[Sonya Khan]

I see this as a cheap tap out from an argument. There was a time, and not very long along. I believed everything you believed but just scratching the surface, I found out that everything is not as it seems or has been told to us.

From then on. I keep my mind open if you have a logical argument that proves your point of view, please present it and if it appeals to my logic I will change my stance.

And BTW you bring in "As you will be answerable for your own deeds" as somehow believing in Aqsa and Jerusalem is a key pillar of faith in Islam? Why would say something like this?

And lets say for arguments sake, say I am totally wrong ( I could be ) and don't believe in the holiness of these things? Do you think that should be a grave sin, so much so I will be question on the day on why I did not believe in these places holiness and possibly land in hell?

I put forth the start of para 15 in my original argument as an evidence ..... I put forth Hadeeth with reference..... For me Holy Quran and Hadeeth SAW is enough ..... For me it’s enough that I did my part in providing you the holy words that i believe in ...... I am not here to convince you to believe them ..... It’s your own decision as afterall you will be responsible for your own deeds just as I am for mine ......
I don’t see it as getting out of arguments...... I see it as a futile practice .....
And I am no one to judge someone as a sinner ...... This will be done by Allah SWT alone on judgement day ...... Its your deeds and your connection with Allah SWT .....