Rising Cause Of Atheism In Pakistan

[Citizen X]

Non sensical Hadith?

Most definitely.

The words of the Prophet ?

No real way to be sure they are the words of the prophet. Here we can't agree in this day and age, of cameras videos and well documented records what Mohd Jinnah said and wanted less than 100 years ago, but one is to believe in a bedu culture centuries later generation after generation people were able to recall word for word what was said by the Prophet.

Ever heard of a childrens game called Chinese Whispers!

 

[knowledge88]

Not the divine revelation, the currency example was for Hadith.

Ok

 

[Eigoroll]

Most definitely.

No real way to be sure they are the words of the prophet. Here we can't agree in this day and age, of cameras videos and well documented records what Mohd Jinnah said and wanted less than 100 years ago, but one is to believe in a bedu culture centuries later generation after generation people were able to recall word for word what was said by the Prophet.

Ever heard of a childrens game called Chinese Whispers!

Actually we can verify what Jinnah actually said through different recorded sources. The difference is either of personal biases or interpretation. That Beduan culture was famous for its ability of oral transmission of literary work even before Islam. That's why the scholars who collected this Hadeeth knew the cultural tradition of word for word trasmittion of the message so they made a good use of it. They established an extremely strict criteria to establish that work.

 

[Citizen X]

I want you to prove me that 99 % of Ahadeeth in prominent Ahadeeth books are not valid.

I was alluding to how man hadith were rejected by the compliers of hadith themselves. Sahih Bhukari collected 600,000 hadith. But rejected all except 7563, with only 2600 hadith that don't repeat and everyday more and more muhaddithseen and scholars find, fabricated and dhaif hadith among those few sahih that he did transmit.

Abu dawood collected 500,000 hadith but included only 4800 in his book and also everyday even from that fabricated and dhaif hadith are being found.

And this is pretty much the case with every compilation of hadith out there.

So you do the math, how many % pass the test of Sahih and then even then many are found to be erroneously labeled as such and this number is increasing daily.

BUT the biggest problem is not even whether xyz hadith is authentic or not. The biggest problem is what people consider hadith to be i.e a source of deen. When there is absolutely no deen in it. Hadith is nothing but a historical record and biographical account of the Prophet's life as seen and told by 1000s of people, which can be right or can be wrong since it is neither ahlam or wahi. Its just the word of man and hence be always up for debate and criticism.

 

[Eigoroll]

Most definitely.

And how do you know that it isn't the case with Koran. Because that is what the critics of Islam claims about Koran.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296519571436744704

 

[Citizen X]

They established an extremely strict criteria to establish that work.

And that is why even the Sahih has so many fabricated and dhaif hadith in it and the number keeps growing daily. Can't blame the compliers because they were using the best methods and tools available to them at the time, but clearly that was not enough nor fool proof.

 

[Citizen X]

And how do you know that it isn't the case with Koran. Because that is what the critics of Islam claims about Koran.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296519571436744704

Thats a totally different lengthy subject and one which will sidetrack this discussion, if you wish you can start another thread about it.

 

[Eigoroll]

I was alluding to how man hadith were rejected by the compliers of hadith themselves. Sahih Bhukari collected 600,000 hadith. But rejected all except 7563, with only 2600 hadith that don't repeat and everyday more and more muhaddithseen and scholars find, fabricated and dhaif hadith among those few sahih that he did transmit.

Abu dawood collected 500,000 hadith but included only 4800 in his book and also everyday even from that fabricated and dhaif hadith are being found.

And this is pretty much the case with every compilation of hadith out there.

So you do the math, how many % pass the test of Sahih and then even then many are found to be erroneously labeled as such and this number is increasing daily.

BUT the biggest problem is not even whether xyz hadith is authentic or not. The biggest problem is what people consider hadith to be i.e a source of deen. When there is absolutely no deen in it. Hadith is nothing but a historical record and biographical account of the Prophet's life as seen and told by 1000s of people, which can be right or can be wrong since it is neither ahlam or wahi. Its just the word of man and hence be always up for debate and criticism.

This only goes to show that how much hard work they did to check the authenticity. Also negates your idea of using currency if many of it is fake. People would not mind to find one real diamond to have among hundred fake ones.

 

[Citizen X]

This only goes to show that how much hard work they did to check the authenticity. Also negates your idea of using currency if many of it is fake. People would not mind to find one real diamond to have among hundred fake ones.

And that is why even the Sahih has so many fabricated and dhaif hadith in it and the number keeps growing daily. Can't blame the compliers because they were using the best methods and tools available to them at the time, but clearly that was not enough nor fool proof.

AND

BUT the biggest problem is not even whether xyz hadith is authentic or not. The biggest problem is what people consider hadith to be i.e a source of deen. When there is absolutely no deen in it. Hadith is nothing but a historical record and biographical account of the Prophet's life as seen and told by 1000s of people, which can be right or can be wrong since it is neither ahlam or wahi. Its just the word of man and hence be always up for debate and criticism.

 

[Citizen X]

This only goes to show that how much hard work they did to check the authenticity. Also negates your idea of using currency if many of it is fake. People would not mind to find one real diamond to have among hundred fake ones.

An honest question have you actually read Sahih Bhukari cover to cover all it's volumes?

 

[Eigoroll]

AND

Hadith is a part of the source of Deen. Our prophet's life is the ultimate exegisis of Quran. We can't even pray 5 times without that.

 

[Eigoroll]

An honest question have you actually read Sahih Bhukari cover to cover all it's volumes?

If I give you the answer how would it change the discussion?

"and the number keeps growing daily"

Where did you get this information from?

 

[Citizen X]

Hadith is a part of the source of Deen.

If it was the Prophet would have made sure to preserve it in his lifetime, rather he stopped people from writing down the hadith.

Our prophet's life is the ultimate exegisis of Quran.

This is basically going against the Quran when it clearly says its a complete book, easy to understand and everything you need to know is in it.

We can't even pray 5 times without that.

Find and quote me the hadith where detailed instructions are given how to pray 5 times a day.

 

[Citizen X]

If I give you the answer how would it change the discussion?

It would make a lot of difference, one would be that you have actually read the very thing you are defending so vehemently or if you haven't then you are just another blind follower defending something you know very little about.

Among many other things.

"and the number keeps growing daily"

Where did you get this information from?

So you are saying no scholar has ever said a hadith in Sahih Bhukari is fabricated or dhaif hadith.

 

[knowledge88]

This only goes to show that how much hard work they did to check the authenticity. Also negates your idea of using currency if many of it is fake. People would not mind to find one real diamond to have among hundred fake ones.

Your apology of currency with Hadees is still poor.
If one followed a Hadees and at the judgement day he is informed that he followed a false hadees and committed a serious sin. Suppose someone killed a Muslim man who had committed blasphemy, thinking he is following a hadees. But he is told that Quran never asked you to kill a blasphemer and Prophet Muhammad never asked you to do so. So you followed a flase hadees. Since you killed an innocent man hell fire is waiting for you. According to above scenario hadees is not like fake currency where if you find gold you are lucky but if you don't then it doesn't matter, keep looking. But the hadeees will be akin to a box of medicine, some medicines in the box could give you Shifa but there are some which have strong poison. if the fake one taken it will kill you instantly and there are many fake medicines in the box. Would you take such a medicine to get Shifa from that box ?

 

[Eigoroll]

If it was the Prophet would have made sure to preserve it in his lifetime, rather he stopped people from writing down the hadith.

How do you know that he stopped people. It's not in the Quran

This is basically going against the Quran when it clearly says its a complete book, easy to understand and everything you need to know is in it.

You are right Quran is a complete book. So Allah could have send an angel with a book and distribute among people. Then Why should Allah needed a human being to deliver a message? To show that this human (the prophet) would become a living example of this complete message. So no one can complain at the day of judgement that it was humanely impossible to live by the divine code. Also read this Ayah and think : قُل لَّوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا تَلَوْتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلاَ أَدْرَاكُم بِهِ فَقَدْ لَبِثْتُ فِيكُمْ عُمُرًا مِّن قَبْلِهِ أَفَلاَ تَعْقِلُونَ

Find and quote me the hadith where detailed instructions are given how to pray 5 times a day.

It is not one Hadith but a compilation of different Ahadeeth and the acts of Sahaba. It's valid enough that even Shia and Sunni are agreed upon the number of prayers and the prayers' core rituals.

It would make a lot of difference, one would be that you have actually read the very thing you are defending so vehemently or if you haven't then you are just another blind follower defending something you know very little about.

I haven't read the Bukhari fully. I understand the concept of Hadith and I am defending that concept, not blindly but with reasoning.

So you are saying no scholar has ever said a hadith in Sahih Bhukari is fabricated or dhaif hadith.

They have and yet it only shows the continues scrutiny of Hadith from the Hadith followers. If some Hadith is doubtful you can leave it but ahadeeth are also a great source of outlining our Prophet's life and thoughts, and a path to follow.

 

[Eigoroll]

Your apology of currency with Hadees is still poor.
If one followed a Hadees and at the judgement day he is informed that he followed a false hadees and committed a serious sin. Suppose someone killed a Muslim man who had committed blasphemy, thinking he is following a hadees. But he is told that Quran never asked you to kill a blasphemer and Prophet Muhammad never asked you to do so. So you followed a flase hadees. Since you killed an innocent man hell fire is waiting for you. According to above scenario hadees is not like fake currency where if you find gold you are lucky but if you don't then it doesn't matter, keep looking. But the hadeees will be akin to a box of medicine, some medicines in the box could give you Shifa but there are some which have strong poison. if the fake one taken it will kill you instantly and there are many fake medicines in the box. Would you take such a medicine to get Shifa from that box ?

Allah knows your intentions behind your actions. Blasphemy law or any communal actions' example is ill-suited in this manner. It's a matter of Islamic Jurisprudence which requires serious deliberation.

 

[knowledge88]

Allah knows your intentions behind your actions. Blasphemy law or any communal actions' example is ill-suited in this manner. It's a matter of Islamic Jurisprudence which requires serious deliberation.

What ?
Allah knows intention ?
He warned you under what circumstances you can kill someone. You killed someone accused of blasphemy whom Allah never asked you to kill. Now you expect Allah will forgive you because in killing someone Allah forbade your intentions were good?
Because you followed a hadees which contradicted Quran.
Quran warned you about the sanctity of human blood. Killing one person is like killing whole humanity. Here someone followed a hadees and killed a man who had committed blasphemy and you are saying Allah will not mind ignorance of Quran and killing a man following a false hadees , because Allah knows your intentions were good.
I
This is the problem with people who try to bring logic in a religious discussion. First they try with logic like currency etc then they say we will continue to do things which are against Quran but are in hadees like killing a blasphemer because Allah knows intention. If killing someone not allowed in Quran but allowed in hadees , it means for you hadees supersedes Quran. Don't you think ?

 

[Eigoroll]

What ?
Allah knows intention ?
He warned you under what circumstances you can kill someone. You killed someone accused of blasphemy whom Allah never asked you to kill. Now you expect Allah will forgive you because in killing someone Allah forbade your intentions were good?
Because you followed a hadees which contradicted Quran.
Quran warned you about the sanctity of human blood. Killing one person is like killing whole humanity. Here someone followed a hadees and killed a man who had committed blasphemy and you are saying Allah will not mind ignorance of Quran and killing a man following a false hadees , because Allah knows your intentions were good.
I
This is the problem with people who try to bring logic in a religious discussion. First they try with logic like currency etc then they say we will continue to do things which are against Quran but are in hadees like killing a blasphemer because Allah knows intention. If killing someone not allowed in Quran but allowed in hadees , it means for you hadees supersedes Quran. Don't you think ?

Man, do you have some reading and comprehension issues? Didn't I say that act of Punishment is a State affair and need a formal deliberation from state authorized Jurists and scholars. Individuals can't take any law in their own hand or kill a person under any allegations.

Don't Hadith deniers reject Hadith under some logic. Why do they use logic in religion then? Scholars (real ones) who accept Hadith or a ruling also do so under a logic or a rational. In Islamic Jurisprudence every court decision comes with a reasoning including the cases of blasphemy or any penalty attached to it.

 

[Citizen X]

It is not one Hadith but a compilation of different

Fine quote me all the hadith.

So Allah could have send an angel with a book and distribute among people.

This is not how he does things as is evident from the many messengers sent with revelation before Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.

Also read this Ayah and think : قُل لَّوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا تَلَوْتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلاَ أَدْرَاكُم بِهِ فَقَدْ لَبِثْتُ فِيكُمْ عُمُرًا مِّن قَبْلِهِ أَفَلاَ تَعْقِلُونَ

1st next time you quote an ayat, please provide reference unless you think I'm a hafiz e Quran or something which I am not unfortunately. Surah Yunus Ayat 16 is in no way asking you to follow hadith. How you came to that conclusion is bewildering.

And don't be like the Shia by qouting out of context ayats to prove false concepts like imammat and walaiyat from the Quran.

If some Hadith is doubtful you can leave it

Why? Didn't you just spend half a day trying to prove they are all holy, true and need to be followed, then how can we leave any out? Would you leave any ayat of the Quran out?

ahadeeth are also a great source of outlining our Prophet's life and thoughts, and a path to follow.

There I fixed it for you.

You are right Quran is a complete book.

Yet you defy it outright by saying you need the hadith to fully understand your deen.

I haven't read the Bukhari fully.

Then it's not even worth wasting time with you on this subject, because if you would have read it you would find such ridiculous, non sensical outright blasphemous hadith in it, that you would really challenge your views on how sahih the sahih is.

if you haven't then you are just another blind follower defending something you know very little about. ( Just because some man with a big bushy beard told you that you are supposed to )