3 dead in knife attack in French church; woman beheaded

[Khair Andesh]

3. Do Words hold no value compared to the physical harming? (How did you feel abt being called a gutter cleaner based on ur religion? Does that qualify as freedom of speech)?
No they do not, its the same things as dogs barking but nobody pays attention to them. Part of being an adult is accepting constructive criticism and ignoring baseless insults. You see people behaving like animals with me on this forum when all I am doing is sharing my opinion, I never get emotional with them I just ignore them.

یہی بات فرانسیسی صدر کو بھی بتا دینی تھی، انہوں نے خواہ مخواہ ترکی میں اپنے سفیر کو زحمت دی۔
ترکی کے صدر کے بیان کی وجہ سے فرانس کا سفیر بلانے کا عمل جہاں مسلمان حکمرانوں کے منہ پر طمانچہ ہے، وہیں، فرانس کے اپنے چہرے پر بھی زور دار تھپڑ ہے۔

ترکی کے صدر نے کوئی کارٹون نہیں بنایا، کوئی فلم یا خاکہ نہیں بنایا،بلکہ اسی فری سپیچ کا سہارا لیتے ہوئے ایک بیان دیا، جس کو بنیاد بنا کر فرانسیسی حکومت نے مسلمانوں کے خلاف اعلان جنگ کیا ہے۔ پھر کیا وجہ ہے کہ فرانس نے ترکی سے سفیر کو واپس بلوا لیا؟۔ ایک طرف مسلمانوں سے یہ مطالبہ کہ وہ اپنی عزیز ترین ہستیوں کے خلاف بد ترین توہین برداشت کریں، اور اپنا یہ حال ہے کہ اپنے صدر کے خلاف صرف ایک بیان برداشت نہیں ہوا۔فرانس کا یہ اقدام اس کے جھوٹے اور باطل ہونے کی واضح دلیل ہے، اور اس کی منافقت کی انتہا ہے۔
اسی طرح یہ فرانسیسی اقدام، نام نہاد مسلم حکمرانوں کے منہ پر بھی طمانچہ ہے۔ ایک طرف فرانس کا یہ حال ہے کہ باوجود ظالم اور غلطی پرہونے کے اپنے صدر کے خلاف ایک جملہ برداشت نہیں، اور سفیر واپس بلوا لیا، اور دوسری طرف مسلمان حکومتوں کا یہ حال ہے کہ وہ اب بھی خالی بیان بازیوں ، تقریروں، اور سفیر کی طلبی جیسی فضول حرکتوں سے کام چلانے کی کوشش کر رہے ہیں۔ہونا تو یہ چاہئے تھا کہ فرانسیسی حکومت کی طرف سے اعلان جنگ کا بھرپور جواب دیا جاتا، لیکن اگر جنگ کی ہمت نہیں ،تو کم از کم سفارتی تعلقات ہی توڑ لئے جاتے۔
حقیقت یہ ہے کہ انہی بے غیرت حکمرانوں کی وجہ سے آج حالات اس نہج پر پہنچے ہیں، ورنہ کفار کے دلوں میں اسلام اور شعائر اسلام سے بغض ہمیشہ سے بھرا ہوا ہے۔​

 

[Waqar_H]

Usually when you study the West and their laws especially France, there is a common theme of: Idea vs human life

In west we give importance to human life over ideas and in Middle East people give more importance to ideas such as religion etc and less importance to human life, that's why you have death penalties for apostasy and blasphemy. But in West the punishment for holocaust denial is usually a fine - hardly a life threatening situation as compared to blasphemy in middle east

1. Is the country, where you ve sought asylum allowing free speech on every topic?
I never sought assylum, I came to study, got my degree and started a business and living comfortably.

As for freedom of speech, the idea is to protect human lives rather than ideas. Especially lives of most vulnerable in society. Freedom of speech is first part of social change, strikes and ehtjaj come after.

What is allowed:
Criticizing ideas, personalities whether they are political or religious, especially if they are connected to power. Which means you are allowed to criticize Muhammad and Islam.

What is not allowed:
Promoting violence against a group of people. You can criticize Islam but you cannot call for hate against a group of people for example Muslims or Jews. Holocaust denial is used by Neo-Nazis to spread hate against Jews. This environment against Jews existed in Europe for more than 100 years before WW2 and it led to the Holocaust.

2. What exactly is the line b/w free speech and verbal aggression?
The line is where you overtly call for violence against a group of people. For example if Macron gives speech and attacks all Muslims, that Speech can be scrutinized, he can only attack an idea (for example Islam), he cannot attack living breathing human beings (Muslims).

3. Do Words hold no value compared to the physical harming? (How did you feel abt being called a gutter cleaner based on ur religion? Does that qualify as freedom of speech)?
No they do not, its the same things as dogs barking but nobody pays attention to them. Part of being an adult is accepting constructive criticism and ignoring baseless insults. You see people behaving like animals with me on this forum when all I am doing is sharing my opinion, I never get emotional with them I just ignore them.

Similarly in Pakistan you see people insulting other religions everywhere, you see signs saying Ahmedi Kuttay not allowed, calling Christians as Choora, and abusing Hindu Gods.

Those people can just ignore and keep living or just laugh at the fools for their ignorance like Richard Dawkins done.

Only a person without any conscience will think that the words & pics have no meaning and affect. If that really is the case, then why we have defamation laws in all countries around the world?

 

[Vitamin_C]

In which country is drawing a picture of some one coming under defamation law? Especially when he is already dead? Where is your reasoning faculties and your conscience?

That's what religious indoctrination does to you, it brainwashes you to think something is wrong and robs you of your reasoning abilities. That's exactly why West does not make laws based on religion because there is no logic behind them

If it was just 100-200 of you crying about cartoons then they would just put you guys in a mental hospital but the problem is there's millions of people who believe in non-sense that could put in the category of mental illness. Flying horses, moons splitting in half, killing people over drawing cartoons. Seriously?

You have already ruined your country over a man who came 1,400 years ago enjoyed every pleasure of life, had 10 women and dozens of sex slaves and now you want to ruin other countries as well.

Only a person without any conscience will think that the words & pics have no meaning and affect. If that really is the case, then why we have defamation laws in all countries around the world?

 

[Waqar_H]

In which country is drawing a picture of some one coming under defamation law? Especially when he is already dead? Where is your reasoning faculties and your conscience?

That's what religious indoctrination does to you, it brainwashes you to think something is wrong and robs you of your reasoning abilities. That's exactly why West does not make laws based on religion because there is no logic behind them

If it was just 100-200 of you crying about cartoons then they would just put you guys in a mental hospital but the problem is there's millions of people who believe in non-sense that could put in the category of mental illness. Flying horses, moons splitting in half, killing people over drawing cartoons. Seriously?

You have already ruined your country over a man who came 1,400 years ago enjoyed every pleasure of life, had 10 women and dozens of sex slaves and now you want to ruin other countries as well.

I am not fixated on this one incident and personally i dont agree with these kind of acts of violence to protest against the hurting of one’s sentiments (Religious or otherwise). The point is that people should be equally answerable for causing emotional hurt to others (just like they are for physically hurting someone). You may be atheist or Hindu yourself but it doesn’t mean that your disregard of religion should be super imposed on everyone. What is the reason why certain topics like Holocaust are totally taboo but not others? (By your own logic its also a past event with no direct implications on lives of current Jewish population)

Also the issue here is Macron using this opportunity to pass sweeping judgments about a whole religious community. What precedence is that setting for ordinary French ppl?

Any reasonable person can see double standards applied here. France has a long history of violence against minorities like jews and Huguenots. They also ve been a brutal colonial force in North africa and even today they are active in creating anarchy in places like Libya, Syria etc.

 

[Waqar_H]

You have already ruined your country over a man who came 1,400 years ago enjoyed every pleasure of life, had 10 women and dozens of sex slaves and now you want to ruin other countries as well.

Is this really how low you are willing to fall just to make a simple statement?

How do you know about all these events 1400 years ago and what relevance has this got here?

You have a choice not to believe in something Or someone but you have no god given right to malign someone. If you had any bit of self respect and dignity, you would ve known that. Waste of time engaging in conversation with an individual like yourself. You deserve the treatment you recieve here!

 

[Vitamin_C]

From your own books. Read Sahi Bukhari and Ibn Kathir Sirat Rasool Allah.

All stories are written in there documented by Muslims themselves how Muhammad's wife Hafsa who is daughter of Umer got offended by Muhammad when he asked her to leave the house to fetch something then started doing things to her maid on her own bed. When this became a scandal, he revealed a verse which said you are allowed to have sex with your slaves. All these things are in Sahi Hadith and Quran Surah At-Tahrim [66:1-5].

You are all being fooled. Look at Yasir Qadhi failing miserably to defend Muhammad. First he said it is not haram, What is haram or not is decided by Muhammad himself, and then he is not doing something wrong, if he is not doing something wrong then why did he tell Hafsa not to tell anyone? This is what religion does to people. It robs them of their reasoning faculties.

How do you know about all these events 1400 years ago and what relevance has this got here?

 

[Vitamin_C]

I never said there is no implication to lives of current Jews.

The hate against Jews didn't just happen during WW2 and it wasn't just limited to German.

I am not sure how much you have studied the holocaust or European history but most of the Jews were not killed by Hitler or by Germans. They were killed by ordinary French, Dutch, Romanians, Poles and Ukrainians etc.

Hatred for Jews wasn't just a Hitler thing, majority of people in Europe were extremist in that time like majority of Pakistanis are today. You could be a Jew and the people who torture and kill you could be your own grocer or your own hair dresser. This was the environment in Europe which existed for over 50 years before Holocaust happened. Jews were blamed for every problem in Europe.

Europeans do not want to go back to that history because history repeats itself and the people who promote holocaust denialism are usually Neo-Nazis, the types that promoted hate against Jews and created the environment for Holocaust to happen.

(By your own logic its also a past event with no direct implications on lives of current Jewish population)

 

[Vitamin_C]

Every country has a violent past, what business did Arabs have to go to Spain or the Turks to go to Austria? It doesn't mean we cant improve our society today and move in a more positive direction just because our history was dark.

Any reasonable person can see double standards applied here. France has a long history of violence against minorities like jews and Huguenots. They also ve been a brutal colonial force in North africa and even today they are active in creating anarchy in places like Libya, Syria etc.

 

[ASQR1]

In which country is drawing a picture of some one coming under defamation law? Especially when he is already dead? Where is your reasoning faculties and your conscience?

That's what religious indoctrination does to you, it brainwashes you to think something is wrong and robs you of your reasoning abilities. That's exactly why West does not make laws based on religion because there is no logic behind them

If it was just 100-200 of you crying about cartoons then they would just put you guys in a mental hospital but the problem is there's millions of people who believe in non-sense that could put in the category of mental illness. Flying horses, moons splitting in half, killing people over drawing cartoons. Seriously?

You have already ruined your country over a man who came 1,400 years ago enjoyed every pleasure of life, had 10 women and dozens of sex slaves and now you want to ruin other countries as well.

Talking down about the beliefs of Muslims in Is your concocted rationale is your way of insult Islam, what is it to you what we believe in.

Your deduction are false and derogatory to Islam. TELL ME WHEN A MUSLIM COUNTRY EVER INSULTED ANY OF THE BELIEFS OF WEST, WE RESPECT ALL BELIEFS, SO YOU AND ALL OTHERS WHO DISRESPECT BELIEFS OF MUSLIM MUST STOP AND LEARN SOME MANNERS AND SOME RESPECT FOR OTHERS.

Never has ever any Muslim country disrespected any western beliefs. You are talking like a ignorant person as you donot know what great writers of west say about Islam. Go read And at the same time learn to respect others beliefs no matter what your cacamany thinking thinks.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Talking down about the beliefs of Muslims in Is your concocted rationale is your way of insult Islam, what is it to you what we believe in.

You can believe in whatever you want but dont behead people and force your beliefs on others. Would it not be a concern of yours if someone's belief leads them to chop your head off?

Your deduction are false and derogatory to Islam. TELL ME WHEN A MUSLIM COUNTRY EVER INSULTED ANY OF THE BELIEFS OF WEST, WE RESPECT ALL BELIEFS, SO YOU AND ALL OTHERS WHO DISRESPECT BELIEFS OF MUSLIM MUST STOP AND LEARN SOME MANNERS AND SOME RESPECT FOR OTHERS.

So tell me in which countries do people make wall chalkings that call Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani a Kutta? In which country do shops put signs that say Qadiani Kuttay not allowed. In which country do you call Christians Choora? In which countries do you insult Hindus and there Gods? In which country does Army put job posting for gutter and sewerage cleaning and say only non-Muslims can apply?

You are all a hypocrite bunch, you are not going to fool us, you are not going to fool Allah, your countries are in the situation they are because of your hypocrisy and if there is a God he can see all this and you will be punished for this.

You go to Western countries, marry their women, get their citizenship and government benefits and then you behead their teachers. Who are you trying to fool?

 

[Waqar_H]

You are here just to spew your hatred and vile agenda. Hence conviniently overlooking the facts about the “current” anarchy and misery caused by these same western countries (that u are championing). Again look at France’s role in Libya, Syria and so on...There is a reason why 6 mio North African muslims are migrants in France, its because until not too long ago France was sucking the life blood out of their countries.

Not much point Wasting time in throwing your obvious hypocrisies in your face. You are probably already aware of them.

Its probably just your pitiful sad life that despite hating us (and everything abt us), you are still spending a good chunk of your time here, seeking attention and affirmation. Probably no one even notices your existence where you are, hence you keep on coming back to a Pakistani forum. Get a life!

As for marrying Western women, there is nothing wrong with it. You would also ve done that if you were capable of it.