What if China was not Pakistan ally ?

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Who gave you the right to decide how the Quran should be discussed, are you a prophet?

Dear vitamin c, I am not saying you or for that matter other people have no right to interpret the quran. The argument is not about interpreting the quran but about how to interpret the quran as correctly as it is humanly possible.

My claim is, there is a proper way to interpret the quran which works and all other ways do not. This is why so long as one interprets the quran the proper way then it is ok, be that interpretation by me or you or for that matter by anyone else.

Any interpretation by anyone that is not based upon a properly working method is not acceptable be it mine or yours or of anyone else. If proper rules do not exist or they are not followed properly then whatever anyone thinks or says or does matters not. Only if there are proper rules and they are followed properly we can build on them. This is why first we must learn to bring about proper rules for proper understanding of the message of God and then use those rules properly to interpret the message of God properly. This will help us do the job properly, otherwise chaos and confusion will keep leading us to anarchy and disorder and lawlessness so we will remain therein like prisoners.

regards and all the best.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
And who gave you the right to decide that for yourself?

Dear vitamin c, everyone's very own life experience right from the very start. Please let us go back in time and see our growth after our births. To begin with as we started growing with time we learned each and everything through our direct experiences with things on basis of trial and error. We did not know anything at all to begin with. We had no idea what our eyes were or what our ears were and so on and so forth. Gradually by seeing; hearing; smelling; tasting and touch or feeling things, we learned what is what and how it works. We tried not to use our thoughts and actions which did not work for us for solving our problems and we adopted whatever worked for us to get where we wanted to be. If anyone including you can deny this, please say so.

This is why I say we humans are born scientists ie with abilities to find out things for ourselves by interacting with real world realities or if you like things in the world we live in. This is exactly what each and every scientist does in his laboratory at a micro or by now rather at nano level. However problem is we are not capable of learning each and everything or directly as we have our limits. This is why when we cannot learn something directly we try to learn it indirectly by coming up with ideas and then trying those idea out to see if they work and solve our facing problems or not. We use indirect learning by learning from those who have already gone through certain life experiences themselves. This is why we have built schools, colleges and universities for sharing our life experiences with each other. This helps us learn things quickly instead of waiting for direct experiences with each and everything by ourselves. The purpose of learning things is always to explain to ourselves as to why we exist or how we came to exist or when we came to exist and how we can continue living the best possible way etc etc.

So no matter at what stage of our lives we are, our already learned methods are fully established beyond any questioning because on these basis we live our lives and none can deny them so they become our accepted standards. Basically we all use these scientific methods all the time anywhere and everywhere to solve problems that face us. Existence of God question is likewise a problem for humanity to solve and it can only be solved by using the scientific method. This is why I say, God made us scientists and he gave us as evidences in form of his creation to experiment with and the explanation for living our lives purposefully and happily so that we appreciate greatness and goodness of God.

By not living our lives by way of life advised by God for us to live by, we are only harming each other and as a result the whole human population is suffering terribly painfully. I have given you link to go through so that it saves me repeating these things. I have already explained all these points you are raising here and more. From all these explanations of mine you cannot fail to see that we human beings are rational creatures. This is why, if we have any revelation from God then it ought to be explained rationally and must not be taken for granted at face value. This is why miracles and magic need to be kept away from the quranic interpretations that serves no essential purpose but instead become a huge stumbling block or hindrance. Religion and secularism have nothing to do with the quran. People who claim to be scientists or philosophers or mullaans are like new born babies in front of the information the quran contains. However to reach that stage of understanding of the quran one has to reach a very high level of thinking ability.

The quran claims to be a rational book, so anyone who interprets it irrationally is contradicting the quran right from the start. Not only the quran but the very nature of oneself because I just proved beyond any reasonable doubt that we human beings are rational beings. God gave a book for rational beings to understand it properly and do as it says for the purpose stated in the book and look at what rational beings have done to the book of God. They have messed it up with their unreasonable or nonsensical explanations. Why they did that? It is because along the line they go off the track of rationality and turn irrational and stop learning things the rational way as they did right from their very start. So it is human beings who are to blame not God for their going off the track. This means God's creation is rational, his book is rational and we human beings are rational, rationality is the way to go rather than foolishness and stupidity.

Even today if people will start using rationalism, they will clearly see the quran is not a nonsense book but a book of clear guidance from God for humanity towards a great life in this very world. The quran is not given for life in hereafter but this very life in this world. Hereafter will be a reward for having struggled to establish a great human community in the kingdom of God in this world. This is why if we will not struggle according to vision God has for us, then we will only suffer in this life by hands of each other due to our own wrongdoings or crimes against each other. We humans are given the ability to chose to live as God guides us and be rewarded in this life as well as in hereafter or to go our own ways and face the consequences. This is why the quran is not a holy book of any religion but a book that shows us the right way of life to a blissful, dignified, secure but purpose based existence.

The question humanity needs to ponder upon is, why God created things and why he sent his revelations for mankind? It is because God is a living being and he has power of choice. So he decided to express himself and this is how he decided to express himself ie he created things and sent his revelations for human beings. This is why these two are called acts of God. Since he decided to express himself, he needed to create something which could appreciate him as a great being so he ended up creating human beings with ability to think, choose and do things. Since he wanted to be appreciated truly so he created human beings unbiased and that is why we are caused to be born knowing absolutely nothing at all to find out each and everything in this regard all by ourselves. This is why this world is set up in such a way so that it could serve the purpose for which God has created it and it is serving that purpose perfectly.

God gave mankind his books because he wanted to explain to them why he has created them and what they will need to do to fulfil that purpose for which God has created them as well as all the rest of the things. So now it is entirely up to mankind as a human population to respond to God and be rewarded with a great life in this word as well as in hereafter or ignore him and do as they please in this world and face the consequences. This is why the quran advises for mankind the kind of life God has chosen for them but it is people who are to struggle to bring about that kind of life for themselves in this world. The sooner the mankind will do that the sooner will end their own painful suffering by hands of each other or the more people will delay things the more they will suffer painfully by hands of each other by practicing their God given ability of choice. Because this struggle God has put humanity through is a very hard work for humanity this is why God will reward humanity with double reward ie one in this life and one in hereafter. This is the difference between the quranic way of life and the religious or secular ways of life ie both are aimless and purposeless.

In the quranic context worship of God is not ritualism or acts of pooja but actual beautiful works advised by the quran for humanity to bring about a beautiful human world for themselves in the kingdom of God. This is why proper understanding of the quranic text is absolutely necessary because otherwise humanity can never bring about the kind of human world the quran advises. This is why the quran is full of words like jannat and jahanam. It is because God is telling us if we will do things his way we will end up having a great life in this world but if we will do what we like then our lives will be hell by our own making.

God never says to people in the quran, fear me. Instead he tells people I am advising you what you should be doing and what you should not be doing and why. It is because if you will do things I say then you will end up having a great life but if you will not then your lives will be made hell by each other. This is why I asked you to interpret the quranic surahs and particularly taoos and tasmiya verses and why the very first surah in the quran is surah al faatihah. It is because God wants us to leave our all nonsensical ideas aside before we start reading the quran which we have been planted by our families or societies etc etc.

Think about it, what have our human societies told us about God? They told us God is very bad being ie he is cruel or tyrant or oppressor and what not. This is why taooz or aoozubillah is recited before reading the quran so that we do not entertain such ideas about God and read the quran ie God wants us to leave our such ideas about God aside. Then we read tasmiyah ie bismillah. It is supposed to bring to our attention that God is so meciful etc etc and not a tyrant etc etc. This is why all those who portray God in bad light are either ignorant and stupid or stubborn due to their haughtiness and arrogance. If people who say such terrible things about God with their mouths then they are shaitaans ie mischievous people therefor sayings of such people should not be given any importance. Now look at the world of human beings. Look at songs people write and sing thinking they are praising God but in actual fact they are throwing abuses at being of God where as in the quran God repeatedly says, all my names or attributes are beautiful ie God does not do anything bad or against his set out purpose for humanity.

Taooz also explains, when God sent his first revelation through a man called aadam most people did not believe in God properly at the time rather they like us today had developed very wrong ideas about being of God. Aadam was sent as a first messenger by God to unite humanity at the time to bring about a proper human community in the kingdom of God. This was the very first paradise that aadam brought about according to the plan he was given by God.

Tasmiyah also explains the kind of society God wanted people to bring about ie which shows how wise and great as well as good God is as a being. If we look at the meanings of words RAHMAAN and RAHEEM. They are from very same root which is about a womb or womb like thing. In a womb all is provided by God for needs of a baby in his mother's body. Likewise God has provided all things people will ever need to fulfil the purpose for which God has created them.

So you can see I am explaining the very same quranic text as you have been reading and so have been billions of others. These are reasons I do not agree with others because they have not really grasped the actual message in the quran ie due to lack of knowledge. This includes arabs and not only arabs but those educated arabs who have multiple phds under their belts from top universities in the world. They are doctors and scientists and philosophers or engineers and lawyers as well as politicians and economists and what not. You yourself are an educated person never mind others. This is why I can't recommend any translation or interpretation of the quran to you because namesake muslims have not bothered to decode the message in the quran as it ought to be decoded.

In surah fatiha, the quran declares glory of God by stating God is rabb ie sustainer of the worlds. In other words God is saying I am worthy of great praises because I created sustained all things ie he is claiming greatness by way of creation and sustenance. This is how he is introducing himself to humanity. It is the best possible introduction by God himself, provided one has wisdom to understand these things. Just three verses and things look great. This is why if humans cannot even understand the quran, how can they write a book like it? Now even you will say, How simple all this is yet how silly I was that I did not get it.

Anyway the reason as to why surah fatiha is first is because it is the key to the proper understanding of the rest of the quran. In a map when it is printed in a book form, the key is given in the first page or the front page so that people could first get the hand of key of map so that then they could understand how to use the rest of the map properly. This is why, proper understanding of the very first surah of the quran is of such vital importance.

Now you tell me, can this be wrong arrangement of the quranic text? Could anyone arrange the words like we have them arranged in the quranic text? I don't think so because I have been thinking things through thoroughly. These like are the reasons that I do not take people seriously when they talk against the quran. To understand the quranic text properly we must use the very same method that we used after birth ie trial and error method. Using that method we must try to get to know the proper context of the quranic text. We will not be able to do that till we learn about real world realities and arabic language. Not only that we also need know the mechanism involved in origin of words and their meanings. All this has been already explained in my posts. Particularly in the thread for which I gave you the link. Here I am simply repeating things, which I do not wish to do as I have more important protects to complete. So it is up to you to go through my posts or not to bother.

So if you decide to read the quran then use trial and error method ie interpret the quran one way and if that interpretation does not fit the quranic context then use other meanings of words and keep doing that till things start making sense to you and they will. As you get better at doing this things will become easier for you. Don't depend upon translations and interpretations of the quran by others but they can be helpful here and there. Going through THIS LINK is vitally important for people if they wish to understand the quran properly.

regards and all the best.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
This is why I say we humans are born scientists ie with abilities to find out things for ourselves by interacting with real world realities or if you like things in the world we live in. This is exactly what each and every scientist does in his laboratory at a micro or by now rather at nano level.

Truth is not based on our individual experiences/realities, but rather on the collective reality that we agree on. That is why for a hypothesis to be a theory it has to be peer reviewed. So its not based on individual experience as individuals can make mistakes or fall for illusions.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
This is why when we cannot learn something directly we try to learn it indirectly by coming up with ideas and then trying those idea out to see if they work and solve our facing problems or not.

That way of thinking is actually classified as a logical fallacy known as "begging the question fallacy"

What you are suggesting is already identified as a flawed way of thinking over 2000 years ago by Aristotle and has been accepted as so by every expert of logic and reason.

In order to reach the truth, we cannot start with an idea or a conclusion. We have to start with the evidence and see what conclusion that evidence leads us to. So far no evidence leads to God or any other supernatural event or entity for that matter.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
That way of thinking is actually classified as a logical fallacy known as "begging the question fallacy"

What you are suggesting is already identified as a flawed way of thinking over 2000 years ago by Aristotle and has been accepted as so by every expert of logic and reason.

In order to reach the truth, we cannot start with an idea or a conclusion. We have to start with the evidence and see what conclusion that evidence leads us to. So far no evidence leads to God or any other supernatural event or entity for that matter.

Dear vitamin c, are you telling me trial and error method of learning is false? Is there any other way of learning things for us human beings? Kindly explain it for me.

As for evidences for God, there are two ie the creation and the revelation and the rest is our own explanation of these. They point us in the direction of a creator provided we understand them properly. So where does fallacy come into it? As for the quran you did not study it properly so how can you claim it does not prove to be what it claims to be?

Moreover you have not responded at all to various points I made, particularly my explanation of what evidence is or can be ie an object or an explanation of the object. Logical fallacies need to be looked at in a proper context. You cannot claim this and that or the other is a fallacy just because you do not understand the explanation given for an object in a particular context.

We have already discussed why the universe is not ever existing and that it cannot be ever existing because it changed and is changing with time. So anything that changes with time cannot be ever existing. If something changes with time then it cannot come into existence all by itself. The changing nature of something tells us someone intelligent is acting upon it. It is because that which changes its nature cannot do so all by itself. Such clear evidences tell us it is God whose will the universe is following. So where is fallacy in this explanation? Here we are not assuming God's existence first and then explaining things in that context but we are clearly looking at the way the universe is and what it is doing and because of that we are reaching the conclusion that there has to be a creator. Once we are there already then we look at the quran and by understanding the quran properly we reach the conclusion that it is word of God so where is fallacy in that? I think you have problem with your understanding of fallacies as well in regard to their usage.

If there are any fallacies in looking at this issue the way I am then you should have been able to point out things for me with your own explanations. You are busy with one liners. Not paying much needed attention to what is being explained and the way it is explained.

I am doing things the way you said they should be done yet you are coming up with nonsense excuses. I don't claim that I saw God making this universe or that I saw God giving his books to his messengers. I am simply saying, the way things look to me after some study of things this is how they make sense to me and that they seem much more sensible to me than any other explanations by other people. This is why I suggested to you that believing in God of the gaps is advantages for us human beings if we wish to have a great life in this world as a proper human community in the kingdom of God. So we have nothing to lose by believing in God properly and we have a lot to gain. However disregarding God and thinking we can have a great life is only a wishful thinking and most dangerous. Just like believing in God is for all the wrong reasons.

So if people want the best possible world they have no choice but to accept God and his guidance by making proper sense of things. I told you already why people are running away from God and his book ie because they have lost their ground to rulers, money lenders, mullaans and their touts. It is high time they started regaining their lost ground by giving up religion and secularism and turning to deen of islam ie a way of life that if understood properly and adopted faithfully by humanity then it will lead them to unity, peace, progress and prosperity as a proper human community in the kingdom of God.

regards and all the best
 
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Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
there are two ie the creation and the revelation and the rest is our own explanation of these.

1. Creation is just an assumption, there are many other theories of origins of universe, just because universe exists is not an evidence for creation. Creation is by far the weakest of the theories we have on origins of universe.


2. Revelation is just a claim not evidence. No one witnessed Gabriel revealing Quran to Muhammad and there are no witness of Muhammad’s prophethood other than Khadijah and Warqa Bin Naufil both of whom were his personal relatives and Christians.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I think you have problem with your understanding of fallacies as well in regard to their usage.

You said that you have an idea that God exists and you want to test it to see if that is truth.

I replied you are committing a logical fallacy called begging the question.

Now you are saying there is a problem with my understanding of fallacies.

Let’s first see how much you understand logical fallacies because your entire text wall is full of fallacious arguments like arguments from ignorance and circular reasoning. No educated person would waste their time beyond one paragraph so that’s what I will do I’ll show you how bad your arguments are from just the first sentence.

Before we go anywhere else let’s just cut the crap and see your understanding of valid arguments and logical fallacies.

1. Do you agree that begging the question is a logical fallacy?

2. If so, why do you think it is considered a logical fallacy?

3. And finally do you think starting with a conclusion (that god exists) and trying to test it is considered fallacy of begging the question?
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
1. Creation is just an assumption, there are many other theories of origins of universe, just because universe exists is not an evidence for creation. Creation is by far the weakest of the theories we have on origins of universe.


2. Revelation is just a claim not evidence. No one witnessed Gabriel revealing Quran to Muhammad and there are no witness of Muhammad’s prophethood other than Khadijah and Warqa Bin Naufil both of whom were his personal relatives and Christians.

You said that you have an idea that God exists and you want to test it to see if that is truth.

I replied you are committing a logical fallacy called begging the question.

Now you are saying there is a problem with my understanding of fallacies.

Let’s first see how much you understand logical fallacies because your entire text wall is full of fallacious arguments like arguments from ignorance and circular reasoning. No educated person would waste their time beyond one paragraph so that’s what I will do I’ll show you how bad your arguments are from just the first sentence.

Before we go anywhere else let’s just cut the crap and see your understanding of valid arguments and logical fallacies.

1. Do you agree that begging the question is a logical fallacy?

2. If so, why do you think it is considered a logical fallacy?

3. And finally do you think starting with a conclusion (that god exists) and trying to test it is considered fallacy of begging the question?

Dear vitamin c, we are not discussing who said what but why we said what we said. I did not say God exist therefore God exists. I said my conclusion is God exists because of a, b, c and d etc. Just like you, I too never seen God walking along a road. However as I started walking along the road of discovery after being born in this world, I came across things which forced me by reason to conclude God does exist. Using my understanding of things I am trying to explain for you why you too should accept what I am saying after you verify it for yourself. Thereafter I am explaining for you what are the huge advantages for humanity in accepting my conclusion the way I am explaining things.

However you are saying that creation of which we are a part actually does not exist, its just one of the many theories. It shows how much of your life you have spent in learning things which at the end of the day lead humanity nowhere at all. I remember talking to you about these things in another thread where I explained things for you in detail by saying if things benefit us human beings then we must accept such explanations rather than going in the direction which ruins us. This is why, you need to realise that it matters not at all if I am wrong because I am not causing any damage to humanity by my way of thinking or reasoning things.

Not only that but if people will grasp my understanding of things then the human world will surely go from strength to strength and within a generation our world will become a living paradise for human beings. However on the other hand, in following your nonsense we humans are doomed right from the start because that way we will be as we are or worse off always because we will remain organised and regulated utterly wrong way as a human population because we have no proper basis to build our proper human society upon. My explanations about God are not in isolation but in context of what good it does or can do for humanity looking at our past holistically.

Only utterly foolish or mentally sick people are going along that road they have been following generation after generation who want to exploit and manipulate things by forcing God out of their way by hook or by crook. God advises in the quran a complementary human community in his kingdom where as all other ways of life people came up or come up with lead to rivalry and animosity based organisation and regulation of human population and that is why any such way of life is most dangerous for human population because it right from the start sets us human beings against each other ie it makes each and every person go against all the others. Living by this way of life which only and only leads to our self destruction by hands of each other and expecting all will be ok at the end of the day is nothing short of deliberate haraami pan.

For this very purpose haraami mullaans have invented and promoted religion and haraami rulers and money lenders have invented money based exploitative system to enslave weaker people than themselves by trapping them into slavery and keeping them in that situation and leaving them the only choice of that kind of life in slavery or death after a very long and very painful suffering. Any such way of life puts humanity between a rock and a hard place ie agge tibah pichhe khayee.

This is why I say, you are following nonsense of religious and secular scholars who derive their strength from nonsense of each other by talking nonsense against each other all the time to keep ignorant and foolish people confused about what is good in God and humanity in order to deliberately keep people ignorant and uneducated or poor to keep them enslaved. Look at how the world of food production and distribution market works. This is why people are always protesting anywhere and everywhere in the world because their needs which can be met very easily are deliberately not met.

This is how secular democracy proves a smoke screen because it is based upon wrong way of life that leads people into hell of their own making. Which is then wrongly attributed to God and his book by the foolish people like yourself who do not know the very first verse of the book as to what it really means in the proper quranic context. It is because the end purpose of any government by the people is not to serve the people but to exploit them. This is where lack of knowledge about God and his scripture leads to. Otherwise why will religious people do haraami things to each other in the very name of God or why will secular democratic people will do haraami things to each other in the very name of secular democracy? The bigger the haraami the bigger his exploitation or corruption against the people weaker than himself.

On the other hand it is God who tells people to cooperate fully with each other for all that is good for humanity as well as he tells mankind don't support each other in things that cause problems for mankind. Not only that but he also tells people to stop each other from doing wrongs to each other or committing crimes against each other. But exactly opposite is done by all the haraamies in the human world, even in the very name of God and humanity. So wake up people and be or become halaalies and truly work for better human world rather than being part of haraamies. This is why you also need to think things through thoroughly.

Look at what the end results of your beliefs and practices will be to see what is really important to spend your life on. This is why we cannot talk abut God and humanity in isolation from each other. It is very dangerous. Do you know the exploitations by cigarette companies and weapon industries etc etc. Wars are always on between people because that is the way of life haraamies from among us have invented and have chosen to adopt or have imposed upon each other by force ie some of us humans have deliberately chosen such ways of life by rejecting the way of life God has advised for us. We have rejected way of life advised by God for all the wrong reasons and that is what keeps battles between religion and secularism going and the only people behind such things are religious and secularists. It suits them to do things that way.

You also use very same secularists arguments against religious people and religious peoples' arguments against secularists. This is why your basis for talking about anything at all is false due to the end results it leads to. This is why you and people like you will be much better off correcting their mindset, attitude and behaviour according to the quran. Leaving the quran out of the equation can only and only lead people to life of hell by their own making. You too should avoid running after baseless theories because you have a lot to lose which is not in front of your mind yet. Think of time when it will confront you like it has confronted many before you. The fact is you will regret it very much when all of sudden things take the wrong turn for you. So while there is still time change your way of thinking and doing things whereby you try to mislead others.

It is for this reason just for sake of argument I said, having God of the gaps is better than not having any at all. This does not mean taht God really does not exist but I am creating one any way. This also does not mean that I am stopping you or for that matter anyone else from proving there is no God at all but that till you can actually do that stay within the bounds or you and people like you are the real cause of continuous exploitation and corruption in the human population. Not only that but also by wasting time in your nonsense you are not letting yourself or other people think about real issues which seriously matter for betterment of human population. This is why to me all people be they religious or secular are haraamies because they take away attention of humanity from what really matters in life for them. This is why I try to explain things for you and others in various ways to try to help people like you understand things the way they should be understood or life is nothing other than putting each other through hell for our own petty personal gains and that cannot be a good purpose for anyone to live one's life for.

This is what you do not realise and that is why you need to understand the quran properly to help you become a proper human being otherwise your claims that you are moral or humanitarian etc etc are all nonsense because your actions speak louder than your words. Moreover without the revelation of God you can never prove any moral base for your thought and actions no matter what you do. If as you say, you want to do what you can for humanity then I can tell you there is nothing better than learning the quran properly and challenging all the haraamies in the human world in the hope that they turn proper human beings ie they turn halaalies. So you can see there are no fallacies in my explanations because they are straightforward based upon well known and observable facts.

This world is real or not is no argument because we are going through hell by putting each other through hell and that is what really matters. So this world is as real for us as it can be for all practical purposes. This is why deductive reasoning is not a fallacy. It is because we deduce things from the effects or results of the causes we cannot know about otherwise. The reason the quran needs to be studied properly first is, because if it explains things for us clearly then we do not need to waste our time in other things that do not matter for us. It is because for the time being we have only very limited use of our God given resources so we must target them appropriately or properly.

The quran tells us how to create the best possible human world so that is all we need to know in our lives to begin with to set up our human population properly on proper footing. This is why one should not dismiss the quran on basis of nonsense spewed by haraami people who claim to be mullaans, philosophers, scientists, politicians and economists etc etc. It is because those people have not bothered to study the quran properly as it ought to be studied and clear explanations of the quranic text by me show and thereby proves how wrong they are about the revelation and the creation of God. These people want to keep troubles alive between mankind wittingly or unwittingly and more likely due to their terrible ignorance. Just like people assume only mullaans know things about the quran the best so people assume only scientists know things about the creation the best. The fact is none of them know much because there is no real basis to measure their understanding of things against if they let go of the revelation of God, which is the quran for our time.

From all this explanation do not get the idea that I am against people going for explorations or discoveries. All I am saying is, we should take God as foundation for all of our works and see for ourselves where we are going to end up in making real progress and at a greatest possible speed. It is because once we succeed in indoctrinating or brainwashing mankind with right ideas as driving force then who in the right mind is going to sit idle or not work as hard as one can according to one's God given abilities or do anything stupid deliberately to anyone when there will not be any need for doing so? If all get all their necessary needs fulfilled with dignity in the name of God through system God has given us then who is going to be stupid enough to go and steal anything from anyone or murder anyone for anything? It is because in such a human society all will be working hard for sake of God for trying to get in the good books of God and each other or humanity as a whole.

We all need addiction or indoctrination or brainwashing to keep boredom away from ourselves or we cannot live our lives at all. We should look at our childhood how we used to get toys and how we only played with toys just for a while till we became fed up with them and looked for new toys. Likewise people change partners because they get fed up with each other. We blame anyone and everyone or anything and everything for all that goes wrong in our lives but never think even once what really has gone wrong or what we have been doing wrong or the wrong way. This is why till we get our foundation right we can never get anything else right and that is why proper understanding of the quran is absolutely necessary for all human beings anywhere and everywhere so that once we have our foundation right then we can get all the rest of things right.

Otherwise we will keep getting addicted or indoctrinated or brainwashed with all the wrong ideas or things after getting bored at some stage of our lives which will keep destroying us by hands of each other. This is why if we will become addicted or indoctrinated or brainwashed with real message in the quran then we will no doubt become a great people because that is what the real purpose of the quran is ie to make human being what they should be ie a great people in the kingdom of God. This is why we should not take anyone or anything as our own because when that person or thing will let us down we will regret it a lot and we will be very upset. This is what leads many to depression or suicide. Had people accepted God and the fact that all that exists belongs to God and that we are only manager of his given things then such terribly painful suffering could not be our end.

Moreover then we will not be trying to dominate each other by undermining each other for our petty personal gains and therefore we will not need to be in war with each other. Instead we will be working as hard as we can for sake of God to make lives of each other the best we can according to our God given abilities. This way we will not take people as our parents and our children or our bothers and sisters etc etc. Instead we will take all these as gifts from God for us to manage properly and benefit from that good management. This way we will not treat each other as our properties or our slaves. This is the way that can built a brotherhood of humanity or a proper human community in the kingdom of God where in all carry out their God given tasks for ensuring well being of all human beings as a God assigned mission.

Today all haraamies are telling us, we are honest or we are humanitarian or we are hard working people etc etc but in actual fact they are worst haraamies because at the end of the day they are only working for themselves and there is nothing driving them to work hard for others because they see no need or incentive to impress anyone else. This is why mullaans are top haraamies who have put in minds of people religion which indoctrinates or brainwashes people in a very destructive way. Look at the kind of questions people ask mullaans all the time ie about religious rituals which have nothing at all to do with life, livelihood and how it should be managed properly. The very same is true about secularists or scientists and philosophers or economists etc ie all people are busy in nonsense talk instead of real human world which need to be managed properly. This clearly shows how they have destroyed human minds. This is why our fight should be against all such elements in the human world.

regards and all the best.
 
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Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
That way of thinking is actually classified as a logical fallacy known as "begging the question fallacy"

What you are suggesting is already identified as a flawed way of thinking over 2000 years ago by Aristotle and has been accepted as so by every expert of logic and reason.

In order to reach the truth, we cannot start with an idea or a conclusion. We have to start with the evidence and see what conclusion that evidence leads us to. So far no evidence leads to God or any other supernatural event or entity for that matter.

Dear vitamin c, our real problem is, how to sort out our messed up human world? If posing questions first and then looking for ways to find their answers is a fallacy then how are you going to look for solutions of problems? If a person is ill, we will have to pose a question first as to what is wrong with the person and then find out what is wrong with the person using different ideas and ways and then we will try to find some remedy for the person the very same way.

Likewise we are born in this world knowing nothing about it. We are forced to pose questions and look for their answers, how is this approach or method wrong?

Moreover in each and every case if questions are not raised then we cannot look for their answers. Questions are only raised by us because we want to understand things in some way if at all possible. So in my view raising questions first and then looking for their answer is not wrong. All that could be wrong is the ways we look for answers and even then only and only if the ways tried do not work. If they work then that is the solution or the answers to our questions.

Similarly, there is nothing wrong with considering possibility of a creator and looking for different ways to prove or disprove this idea. If the idea works it is fine and if it does not then we are back to square one. The way I propose works and that is why it solves our this problem. Moreover it can be tested by anyone who is sensible enough to test this method.

If we do not have a question to begin with then we do not need to look for any answer, do we? In case of existence of God, we have two things to consider ie the creation and the revelation and they can be tested against each other to see that they complement each other. This is how they prove to be from the very same source. The discrepancies we see between them are due to misunderstandings of people about them. Mainly because mullaans and scientists have no understanding of the quran in light of real world realities.

This problem is also related to the books which are falsely attributed to God because God did not send them to people and the books say so as well yet people continue attributing them to God. Since all other books people come across are like that so they also take the quran the very same way which is totally different from those books because it is the only book on the face of the earth that claims to be revealed by God and its textual style goes with its claim unlike all the other books attributed to God.

regards and all the best.
 
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Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
If a person is ill, we will have to pose a question first as to what is wrong with the person and then find out what is wrong with the person using different ideas and ways and then we will try to find some remedy for the person the very same way.

Yes exactly, you will study the symptoms first to see what the cause could be.

You do not beg the question by guessing he has a tumor in his leg without even looking at the patient first.

This is why I say we should study the evidence of where this universe comes. And not diagnose it to be God without even looking at the evidence first and seeing where it leads.

This is why its called "Begging the Question." You are starting with a conclusion first that its God, or its a Tumor when there is no evidence to suggest that is the case in the first place.

There has to be a reason to diagnose the patient for tumor or the universe cause as God. You do not first start with that conclusion and then try to test it, thats not how it works.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Yes exactly, you will study the symptoms first to see what the cause could be.

You do not beg the question by guessing he has a tumor in his leg without even looking at the patient first.

This is why I say we should study the evidence of where this universe comes. And not diagnose it to be God without even looking at the evidence first and seeing where it leads.

This is why its called "Begging the Question." You are starting with a conclusion first that its God, or its a Tumor when there is no evidence to suggest that is the case in the first place.

There has to be a reason to diagnose the patient for tumor or the universe cause as God. You do not first start with that conclusion and then try to test it, thats not how it works.

Dear vitamin c, as I explained already my own existence and the existence of the rest of the universe and things in it give me the reason to start looking for an explanation for the origin of the universe or the source or ultimate cause which might have brought it about. This is why the existence of things is the evidence which I try to explain not other way round. I don't suppose existence of God first and then try to justify that. So come out of this illusion.

Once I start on this journey of discovery I start with what is called process of elimination by collecting evidences and explanation which tell me what is possible and what is not possible. After going through all these exercises I end up concluding that it is highly likely that there is an intelligent being behind all this because no other explanation seems satisfactory. My this conclusion then tells me if there is really an intelligent being behind all this then he must have a reason or purpose to do all this which he has done therefore I start looking for any information from any such being just in case it is there. To my surprise there are so many people in the world that tell me God has sent this and that and the other.

This is when I get involved with various scriptures I could get my hands on. After reading all of the major ones I find that almost all of them are not God sent because their authors are human beings. This is why I am left only with the quran because just on face value it proves it could be a God sent book. Whether my this conclusion about the quran is actually true or not. That needed to be decided by going through it thoroughly. This is where we humans become stuck. It is because our knowledge of things is not such that we could understand the quran properly. So any conclusion about the quran by any of us cannot be right tell we learn things which could help us decode this book.

This is where you hide behind fallacy because instead of learning things to decode the book properly to decide the issue, you simply take the stand that God does not write books. This is what you told me in an other thread. This is where you seem to be putting the cart before the horse. Now the end result of taking that stance is that you have concluded without properly examining the alleged book of God given as evidence or testimony or witness statement of God that God does not exist. In your way of thinking if God exists he cannot reveal any message but in my way of thinking he can. You need to explain why he cannot and I need to explain why he can.

My stance is that if God can create things then why can he not reveal a message to explain why he has done all this what he has done? Here you seem to be going in the wrong direction not me. It is because I am saying we should examine the alleged revelation of God then decide this issue which we can never decide on basis of the existence of things alone. It is because just evidence on its own does not speak as I already explained it in detail for you. We can observe the creation as much as we like and for as long as we like but at the end of the day we cannot draw a conclusion that God does not exist and this is the nature of the things.

This is why waiting for any such conclusion is a waste of our time which we do not have and as I already explained in detail, it is not without a heavy cost in form of human painful suffering. The more we delay sorting out our human population properly the more things get difficult for us human beings. This is why if there is a God then that God has to be God of this creation and such a God cannot be expected to have nothing to do with his own creation. This is why connection between existence of God and his creation and revelation cannot be ruled out rather it is or it becomes a necessity and that it can be confirmed by examining the alleged revelation of God. So proper examination or scrutiny of the quran is vitally important and necessary because it is up to God to give us human beings his evidences the way he chooses and up to us human beings to find proper ways to examine them properly and accept or reject them as such. All this we have discussed already in other threads and posts.

If we look at the time since humanity has come about mankind have not been able to eliminate possibility of existence of God and they never will be able to do that because of the nature of things. As I said this already this issue hangs on the proper explanation of the alleged God given book. The better we humans are able to understand it the better the book will be for us as I see things because I am not disappointed by the book so far. This is why I am telling each and every person to get educated or prepare oneself to study this book properly and then see how this magical book takes over your minds with its beautiful explanations of things. I showed you this magic in explaining taooz, tasmiya and why surah one is the one with which the quran starts ie the very first surah.

You criticise the quran on basis of second and third hand information but I suggest you try it by your self by preparing for proper study of the quran. After all we need to prepare ourselves for whatever we wish to do with our lives and what can be more important for us than knowing where have we come from and why? If we will come to know the purpose for which our creator has created us and we will do what he has created us for then surely this will ease our lives a lot all by itself because we will come to know what we should expect for our future with reasonable certainty. Making a journey in the dark or into the dark or the unknown is not the same as knowing where we have come from and what for and where we are going to end up and why.

The quran does us no harm instead it tells us the right way to live in this world to have a great life in the kingdom of God. This is why the more we will pay our attention to its message of goodness the more we will find blessing of God for ourselves. The more we will run away from it the more damnation will confront us and the longer we will have this mindset, attitude and behaviour towards the quran the more painful suffering will be our lot and due to all our own wrongdoings against God and humanity. Remember God can reach us always anywhere and everywhere but we cannot reach God unless we follow the way God has told us.

The quran is a most powerful book on the face of the earth because it contains most powerful information and explanations but only wise can see that not ignorant fools. So if anyone wants to decide issue of existence of God for oneself one has no choice but to become wise enough to see what the quran really contains in its pages. It is fully scientific right from its very first surah to its very last surah. This is why I explained for you that one has to take both creation and revelation together or one can never decide this issue with certainty beyond any reasonable doubt. So if anyone is not doing so then one has to explain with a very strong reason why not?

So why try to decide an issue the way it cannot be decided ever? Because to decide an issue one needs both the needed evidence as well as its proper explanation. In case of existence of God issue, just creation on its own is not enough to decide this issue rather we must let God speak about it as well if it is he who has brought about both of these things ie the creation and the revelation. By cutting out alleged explanation given by God about his alleged creation we cannot really do justice to this issue. This is why this is how far we humans can go in discussing existence or nonexistence of God issue and there is no fallacy in this way of reasoning.

This is why the rest of discussion has to be about the quran itself for those who are interested and that has to be about proper way of understanding the quranic text. For this purpose people should learn rules according to which the quran should be learned or examined or scrutinised or analysed. For example, one of the rules for proper understanding of the quran is to understand it in light of real world realities. The quran should not be interpreted in a way that it seemingly ends up in conflict within itself or with real world established realities.

Here I am not saying that if there are contradictions in the quranic text then we should get rid of them by way of our own interpretations but that if it is clearly possible to interpret the quranic text without any contradictions within itself and with respect to real world realities then why should anyone deliberately introduce contradictions in it through its interpretations due to one's own lack of proper knowledge of things? It is because if a text really contradicts itself or real world realities then we cannot remove such contradictions by way of our interpretations. Should we try to do that then in trying to do so we will end up introducing more and more contradictions in its interpretations. It is because to cover up one lie you need to lie more and more. Once people have learned rules of interpretation of the quran then they should start understanding words used in the quran as to their possible meanings and the mechanism whereby words came about and got their meanings.

We can use these ideas in discussing some short surahs of the quran to see what they really contain in them eg surah 108 alkausar. For example, why surah alkausar is called by this name? Or what is actually expressed by this name? Till people actually study words and surahs of the quran the way they ought to be studied they can never understand the real message of the quran and because people criticise the quran without actually knowing anything much about it, it becomes a self created stumbling block for them which keeps them in darkness by blocking the light of knowledge from their minds.

regards and all the best.
 
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Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dear vitamin c, as I explained already my own existence and the existence of the rest of the universe and things in it give me the reason to start looking for an explanation for the origin of the universe or the source or ultimate cause which might have brought it about. This is why the existence of things is the evidence which I try to explain not other way round. I don't suppose existence of God first and then try to justify that. So come out of this illusion.

Until here we both agree on this.

Once I start on this journey of discovery I start with what is called process of elimination by collecting evidences and explanation which tell me what is possible and what is not possible.

This is the part I dont understand what you are doing and what you mean by process of elimination.

If a patient comes to a doctor will he do process of elemination? Thats impossible because there are millions of virsuses, illnesses and diseases. He will first have to diagnose to patient to see exactly what it is before testing him for that illness for which the symptoms match.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Once I start on this journey of discovery I start with what is called process of elimination by collecting evidences and explanation which tell me what is possible and what is not possible.

Also there are diseases that we havent even identified yet. For process of elimination to work you have to be omnicient which is not possible unless you are a God and know about every single possibility that could exist.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Until here we both agree on this.

Dear vitamin c, that is well and good.

This is the part I dont understand what you are doing and what you mean by process of elimination.

I have already used elimination method when I was explaining to you about how I eliminated scriptures eg I said the scriptures that people claim are from God are not from God because they tell us they are written by people themselves about God. As God sent scripture only the quran stands the test. However all scriptures are great because as human works they give us a lot of useful information about the past which helps us understand our human past to some degree.

If a patient comes to a doctor will he do process of elemination? Thats impossible because there are millions of virsuses, illnesses and diseases. He will first have to diagnose to patient to see exactly what it is before testing him for that illness for which the symptoms match.

When a patient comes to a doctor, the doctor talks to the patient and asks him or her what is wrong with the person ie what brings the person to the doctor for the attention of the doctor. This is the start of the elimination process to isolate the problem the patient has. As investigation starts patient's problem is isolated more and more as much as humanly possible. There after if need be further tests are suggested or carried out by relevant team or teams till the problem is if possible identified.

In medicine all the viruses do not need to be known. All a relevant medical team needs to know is, what a normal human body is and what is not. Any foreign element therefore can be identified as an intruder which should not be there but it is there etc etc. Once something is found in body which should not be there but is there then medical staff try to check it out what it might be against the already known data. If it is something new then it is identified and catalogued for future references. It is something like computer viruses if you know what I mean.

Elimination method is used widely eg in chemical or genetic or mechanical or electronics engineering. Lawyers also use it for solving legal cases and police investigation of cases are also solved using this idea. Elimination process is used in three ways a)top down b)bottom up and c)half split or splitting in the middle. The idea is to solve a facing problem whichever way it can be solved. So whatever idea works is fine and whatever idea does not work is left alone due to being open ended or unworkable.

Also there are diseases that we havent even identified yet. For process of elimination to work you have to be omnicient which is not possible unless you are a God and know about every single possibility that could exist.

No, you do not need to be omniscient to use elimination method rather if you were omniscient that will be helpful in getting straight to the point instead beating around the bush for a long while ie carrying out this test and that test.

The main thing is knowing about, how the quran can prove it is word of God. Here also we can use elimination method by collecting things about the quran that cannot be from human beings no matter what eg particularly attention to detail to such great extent.

This is why I started discussing the quran and to start with I explained taooz just a bit. I can open it up a bit more and we will see how it looks at what humans have in their minds which God does not approve ie wrong ideas about God and things people learn from their birth till they come to the revelation of God. In the very first verse it shows the quran is word of someone who has wider things in his sight which we human beings do not have till we are made aware or them. Such ideas could not have come from other than God.

I mean look at the human population, we are about 8 billion people on this earth today but all people have wrong ideas about God save those who think at a very high level. Have you heard hindu bajhans or christian hymns or muslim hamado naats etc etc. How could such people produce a book like the quran which exposes their wrong ideas about God and things scientifically? Surah one is key to the rest of the quran and it is placed right at the start of the quran. Such points cannot be dismissed by saying this is coincident or that is coincident etc etc. There are numberless such points in the quran which make it impossible for human being to produce such a book mainly because people differ with each other over anything and everything. In fact the quran is there and people are tearing it apart by their so many different interpretations, so you imagine why people could not write the quran even if they decided to do so.

Surah 108 alkausar is named that because it is attribute of revelation of God. The reason it is named that way is because revelation of God opens doors to human unity, peace, progress and prosperity in this very world or in the kingdom of God. What is perception about this surah of people who claim to be muslims? What is their understanding about taaooz and tasmiya? Their minds are full of all kinds of nonsense and that is what they see in the quran. Not only that look at what is perception of nonmuslims about it. Did they do any better than muslims in the last more than 1400 years? No. It very clearly shows people could not and cannot produce a book like the quran.

All because they have no idea how to understand the quranic text properly because they have not learned the needed knowledge for proper understanding of the quran. They just follow anything anyone says for generations and keep fighting over it with each other like blind in the darkness. The quran is for people who are to act upon it like managers of businesses who know how to run businesses already. This is why it uses human language but at such a higher level which only wise can understand. This is why till people really become wise we will have to wait for the quran to be understood properly.

If we look at surah 97 alqadr. We have exactly the same problem ie people talk about a 24 night dutring which the quran is revealed. This is not what this surah is talking about. It is talking about the time when God started sending his revelations for mankind through his messengers. God started sending his revelations during period of darkness of ignorance in order to bring people to light of knowledge. You see when you have a teacher to learn from then you can learn things in minutes and hours and days which takes people many years and generations to learn by way of direct life experiences. So revelations from God can help people learn things fast. Because mullaans are ignorant they take things the way they understand them like little kids who have many false imagination about the real world. This is why I see baby minded people all over the world not just muslims but nonmuslims as well. Little people with little or very limited imaginations and so there God has to be the same as they themselves are. This is why different people have different Gods.

I see same problems with understanding of mullaans as regard surah 111 ie allahb. It is not at all about chacha of the messenger of God but about people with such mindsets, attitudes and behaviours as are harmful and destructive for humanity ie same people who are called shayaateen. It tells how harmful and destructive leaders take their people to the verge of destruction and how harmful and destructive people take their leaders to the verge of destruction due to being rejecters of guidance of God be it by their word of mouth or their actions.

Regards and all the best.
 
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