Good-Bye Pakistan: I have decided to leave

[atensari]

بہت اچھا فیصلہ ہے. بہت جلد پاکستانیوں پر پابندی لگنے والی ہے اور کوئی بھی ملک اس قسم کہ مناظر جو کہ پچھلے دو دن دیکھنے کو ملیں ہیں کہ بعد انہیں ویزا نہیں دے گا. جس نے نکلنا ہے جلد ہجرت کر جائے

چلے جائیں، کس نے روکا ہے. سابق وزیر اعظم یوسف رضا گیلانی​

 

[Salman Mughal]

Big Brother! West is much more savage than us!

Have you ever been to west?

 

[JohnSnow]

First of all, my introduction. I have been on Siasat.pk website since 2011. I am a 38-year old Muslim Pakistani currently working and living in Lahore.I did my BS in Electrical Engineering from a famous public-sector University, and my MS and PhD in Electrical Engineering from a top US University and was funded through TA-ship and RA-ship. My economic background is middle-class. My religious background is that I am a moderate (neither liberal nor fundamentalist) Muslim who firmly believes in the last prophet-hood of Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) and who tries his best to discharge his religious obligations.

I came back to Pakistan partly because of my family-reasons and partly because of my desire to work for my country. Over the past many years, I have been witnessing increasing intolerance in Pakistan. I saw Taliban taking over few parts of the country which Pakistani State took back after many years of intense fighting. During all those years when Pakistani State was fighting with Taliban I was never extremely worried or dejected b/c I knew that Taliban's support-base was limited, both in number and geography. I never became despondent because of rampant corruption b/c I knew that a new party (PTI) was struggling against it and was drawing positive response from public. However, a new phenomenon has arisen ever since Mumtaz Qadri was hanged on account of assassinating ex-Governor, Salman Taseer and this is what has bothered me the most. It is TLP (Tehreek Labbaik Pakistan).

Last year, TLP successfully blocked various parts of the country and made State of Pakistan surrender by forcing two of its ministers to resign. When the then govt asked military to take action against protesters, military refused. This year, they achieved bigger success and Pakistan suffered bigger capitulation. They not only made country stand-still for three days but also gave 'Fatwas' of killing Supreme Court Judges, declared COAS as Qadiani, incited army's ranks-n-files to stage rebellion against its own Chief, and declared Prime Minister of the country as Jew. And guess, after all this, they not only got away with it but also forced Govt to sign another agreement of capitulation. On the other hand we see that many people have been booked in Pakistan under sedition charges. Latest example was of Altaf Hussain of MQM.

I just couldn't understand why the country was blocked in the first place. Highest Court in our country has given a decision (by setting free a christian woman of Blasphemy charges) and we want to set-up our own court and hang that woman. You can disagree with any judgement of any court but you can't disobey the judgement. Blasphemy is not what you think. Blasphemy is what Court decides. This is no argument that when two courts declared her as Blasphemous, then how could the third court declared her non-blasphemous. Supreme Court's decision is not one out of three decisions. It is the only decision that matters. There are numerous examples from the past history of Pakistan when lower courts declared a person guilty and SC freed him/her. There are many examples where lower courts freed a person and SC found him/her guilty. In all these cases, it was the SC decision that mattered, and got implemented.

Another point to worry here is that TLP was supported by all religious parties and all sects of Muslims. Yesterday, I offered Juma prayer in a Deobandi Masjid. The Khateeb was shedding light on Namoos-e-Rasool. At one point, he said that his Bazurgaan (older scholars) have stated that Namoos-e-Risaalat should be protected even if whole Muslim Ummah gets destroyed. He gave no reference of Quraan or Hadith to support this very statement (That way he was justifying the destruction of properties of Pakistanis). This made me shudder. No Muslim can have any doubt on Namoos-e-Risaalat. It is part of his faith. What our scholars should have talked about in Juma was, "what is punishment for those who refuse to accept highest court's decision on any matter including Namoos-e-Risaalat matter?" Isn't it tantamount to sedition (Baghawat)? what is punishment of sedition in Islam? But, alas! no Muslim scholar chose this topic. Everyone wants easy path to Jannah!

I tell you an incident that is much more pertinent to the case-at-hand (i.e. The SC's decision in favor of Asia Bibi) than what our scholars have been saying over the past three days. The incident is about a legal case between Hazrat Ali and a Jew. Hazrat Ali filed a lawsuit against a Jew that his (Ali's) armor was missing and was currently in possession of that particular Jew. Qazi (CJ of that time) asked the Jew if Armor belonged to Hazrat Ali. Jew denied it. Qazi asked Hazrat Ali to bring two witnesses in support of his claim. He brought Hazrat Hassan (his son) and his freed-slave as witnesses. Qazi said that I accept the witness of your freed-slave but not that of your son, so bring second witness. Hazrat Ali said that he didn't have any other witness. Qazi gave verdict in favor of Jew.

Did Sahaaba and Tabaeen take out processions against Qazi that how did he dare give decision against Ameer-ul-Momineen and in favor of a Jew? Did Qazi think that Ali was (Naoozobillah) telling a lie and Jew was speaking a truth? No. No one criticized Qazi. Neither did Hazrat Ali. Qazi gave verdict based on principles and not based on the fact that plaintiff was Ameer-ul-Momineen/Damaad-e-Rasool and defendant was a Jew.

Lastly, I narrate an authentic Hadith about the decisions made by Qazi. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said. "If the judge rules and strives his utmost to work it out and gets it right, he will have two rewards, and if he rules and strives his utmost to work it out and gets it wrong, he will have one reward".(Sahih Al-Bukhari: 7352, Sahih Al-Muslim: 1716).

The present arrangement made by our govt will not last long. Those who have read the detailed verdict of SC can tell you the fate of review petition. SC's original decision will be upheld, TLP will not accept it again, and we will witness the repeat of the last three-days but at bigger scale. You see that TLP didn't agree to write this point in the last-night agreement that all parties will accept the decision of review petition.

Keeping in view all the above, I have started looking out for Post-Doc and other jobs in my field abroad and hope to get some good offer soon. Pakistan has become a den of extremists. Everyone fears them be it Army, Police, Judges, Politicians etc.

I understand and respect your decision to leave but for someone who is 38 years old and lived in Pakistan all his life, you are quite a drama-queen. TTP is at weakest levels in their history. Even SWAT has been handed over to civilians administration. Pakistan is more peaceful today than it's ever been since the 80's.

So I don't really agree to that bullshit scenario that you are trying to paint, like sky is about to collapse on earth and heaven will get ruined and shit.

Sorry to say this but it more like you ranting and paranoid about stuff. So good luck and hope you find somewhere else.

BTW, I have been to many countries and I say if you are not a fit for Pakistan, you will be unfit everywhere else too. Still, Good Luck!

 

[Steyn]

You were the guy who tried to show me miracles of Islam by showing me a verse regarding embryology and then you said how can some one have known that 1400 years ago.

Turned out that verse was word to word copy of Greek embryology which was written 1200 years before Muhammad and it was completely wrong.

There is so much about Islam i am learning day by day from far more smarter men than me. I showed you what Greeks thought and how different Holy Quran is. Watch this if you're really open to truth and explain how it was copied from Greeks.

Hamza Tzortzis goes into detail about how the Holy Quran is extremely different from what Greeks and older civilizations believed. It is impossible to even think Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) could've copied it and how the hell did he knew to copy that which is accurate to modern science and reject what is wrong.

This is not even the only miracle, there is so much in Holy Quran i am discovering that Holy Quran explained that we're knowing about now. Such subtle details that weren't known to men at the time and we're only finding out now and Holy Quran mentions them with 100% accuracy.

Like i have said before, there are verses in Holy Quran which have to be taken literally and there is no room for interpretation (usually concerning law or divine orders) and they are straight forward, even the arabic can't be taken in other meanings. Then there are verses which are open to interpretation and by Allah, the arabic there is so beautiful and mesmerizing, it makes you drop your jaw to the ground. And this is the miracle, the ignorant arabs at the time understood it, then the next generation and the next generation.

There are verses about black holes, the ignorant arabs understood it and now we know they so accurately explain black holes with so much detail that is impossible. There is about the sea, about the human body, about the universe, about the embryology, about blackholes, about stars. Do you really believe a man of 1400 century could've copied it and copied the accurate information and rejected the falsehood at the time? That is a miracle by itself if we were to believe that.

What's even miraculous is not a single word meaning can interpret it wrongly, every meaning is correct. SubhanAllah

 

[Steyn]

I understand and respect your decision to leave but for someone who is 38 years old and lived in Pakistan all his life, you are quite a drama-queen. TTP is at weakest levels in their history. Even SWAT has been handed over to civilians administration. Pakistan is more peaceful today than it's ever been since the 80's.

So I don't really agree to that bullshit scenario that you are trying to paint, like sky is about to collapse on earth and heaven will get ruined and shit.

Sorry to say this but it more like you ranting and paranoid about stuff. So good luck and hope you find somewhere else.

BTW, I have been to many countries and I say if you are not a fit for Pakistan, you will be unfit everywhere else too. Still, Good Luck!

I agree with you. This small TLP demonstration lasting for just two or three days is nothing. I have seen Pakistan burning and i am just 30 years old. I am so thankful all those bad days are over, i live in KPK and i am not exaggerating that i couldn't go out without thinking i am gonna die in a bomb blast, two times i have been saved from a bomb blast with just a 5 minutes time difference (and i didn't even spend my time outside that much).

In every country, stuff like this happens. It's life, shit happens.

 

[Humi]

میں بھی ہمیشہ بڑے شہروں میں ہی رہا ہوں جیسا کے کراچی ٹورنٹو پر جب اس چھوٹے علاقے میں رہا تو زندگی کا صحیح لطف لیا اب برے شہروں میں اڈجسٹ کرتے ہوے دقت ہے جس جگہ آپ رہتی ہیں وہ بھی بہت رش کا علاقہ ہے بات وہی ہے کے بندہ عادی ہو جاتا ہے

I got used to seeing quite busy crowds in downtown Toronto while going to university so Square One doesnt seem crowded in comparison but I am sure its crowded enough for a lot of people...

Yes, I have been told that small towns have their own charm but unfortunately I can't relate as I have never really lived in one.

 

[Hussain1967]

I understand and respect your decision to leave but for someone who is 38 years old and lived in Pakistan all his life, you are quite a drama-queen. TTP is at weakest levels in their history. Even SWAT has been handed over to civilians administration. Pakistan is more peaceful today than it's ever been since the 80's.

So I don't really agree to that bullshit scenario that you are trying to paint, like sky is about to collapse on earth and heaven will get ruined and shit.

Sorry to say this but it more like you ranting and paranoid about stuff. So good luck and hope you find somewhere else.

BTW, I have been to many countries and I say if you are not a fit for Pakistan, you will be unfit everywhere else too. Still, Good Luck!

No comments from my side, Mr. JohnSnow!

 

[Vitamin_C]

Please done share me videos of Hamza, he is a fraud and a liar.

There is so much about Islam i am learning day by day from far more smarter men than me. I showed you what Greeks thought and how different Holy Quran is. Watch this if you're really open to truth and explain how it was copied from Greeks.

Hamza Tzortzis goes into detail about how the Holy Quran is extremely different from what Greeks and older civilizations believed. It is impossible to even think Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) could've copied it and how the hell did he knew to copy that which is accurate to modern science and reject what is wrong.

This is not even the only miracle, there is so much in Holy Quran i am discovering that Holy Quran explained that we're knowing about now. Such subtle details that weren't known to men at the time and we're only finding out now and Holy Quran mentions them with 100% accuracy.

Like i have said before, there are verses in Holy Quran which have to be taken literally and there is no room for interpretation (usually concerning law or divine orders) and they are straight forward, even the arabic can't be taken in other meanings. Then there are verses which are open to interpretation and by Allah, the arabic there is so beautiful and mesmerizing, it makes you drop your jaw to the ground. And this is the miracle, the ignorant arabs at the time understood it, then the next generation and the next generation.

There are verses about black holes, the ignorant arabs understood it and now we know they so accurately explain black holes with so much detail that is impossible. There is about the sea, about the human body, about the universe, about the embryology, about blackholes, about stars. Do you really believe a man of 1400 century could've copied it and copied the accurate information and rejected the falsehood at the time? That is a miracle by itself if we were to believe that.

What's even miraculous is not a single word meaning can interpret it wrongly, every meaning is correct. SubhanAllah

 

[Vitamin_C]

Every single question you asked here I have answered to you in great detail in the other thread. We have been through this before.

Refer to the previous thread where we were having a discussion on this topic. You neither challenged nor denied my answers, probably because you just ignored them.

Unlss you uave something to add to what I have alreay said to the above things, please do not waste my time by repeating things that I have already answered.

I do not want to waste my time repeating myself to an ignorant person as I already spent many hours replying to you before and you just ignored it and now asking same queations again without commenting on what I answered. This is ridiculous.

Greeks never called embryo a leech which is more accurate to current science's knowledge. Greeks never called embryo a hanging thing. Their order was completely different and wrong. You failed to show how Islam was wrong about embryology and threw red herrings.

Also your argument is the most dumb i have ever seen. Just because some knowledge that is true is included in Holy Quran doesn't mean it was copied. Even if we were to believe you, how come Prophet Muhammad(SAWW) copied the truth from greek and discounted all bullshit? The greeks believed that earth was flat LMAO. But Holy Quran gets it right.

You also run away from the Holy Quran's challenge and still are. That is the challenge of Holy Quran not mine.

You are also doing the things every atheist is guilty of. When he can't explain something and gets stuck, he runs away and find something else.

The Holy Quran says that the unbelievers are blind, unable to hear and their hearts are sealed. By Allah, arguing with you every second reminds me of that verse.

If a kid who doesn't know anything and his mind free of all bias were to shown these miracles, he would accept it. But you have bias and you follow Satan so you run and throw red herrings or do stupid shit.

 

[There is only 1]

yeah yeah stop bullshitting

Do you consider consuming alcohol legitimate?
Do you consider drooping babies (abortion) normal?
If yes, then I am sorry for "Bullshit". Carry on!

 

[Steyn]

Please done share me videos of Hamza, he is a fraud and a liar.

I don't know what you're talking about.

It doesn't invalidate his serious arguments in favor of the Holy quran. Even i at the time showed you how different Quranic depiction of embryology was from Galenic and Aristotles but you completely ignore that.

Explain the word Alaqa. You ran away then and you're running away now. That's not all, if you watch the video, hamza explains further verses regarding embryos. I don't have time to type that.

There is also no explanation for how the Prophet Muhammed (Saww) could've copied the truth, or fixed the views of Greeks included in Holy Quran and discounted the lies. Accusing Quran copied from greeks puts you in a deeper hole because you then have to explain why the knowledge of Greeks was discounted of they were taken as authorities on medicine.

You have also evaded the Holy Quran challenge. For 1400 years nobody has been to even explain how the Holy Quran manages to be the way it is now, the choice of words is unprecedented in the way they're used and the meaning they impart. I was reading some other scholars examination of the numerology in Holy Quran and it's miraculous itself. Very different than the flawed and pointless numerology biblical scholar try.

No body has even come close to copying the Holy Quran. I don't know linguistics and it's not my area but the people who are unanimously both Muslim and non Muslim linguistics agree on the unexplainable miraculous nature of Holy Quran and fail to produce anything like it. Not even a chapter or verse

In my time watching these debates with atheists, not a single one even has a counter argument to the miracales of holy quran, not to the holy quran challenge. The best i have seen is this accusation of greeks knowledge but it's an absurd argument. The holy quran corrects greeks and is different and accurate to today's knowledge. I have shown you briefly, hamza goes into details.

What's miraculous even more is holy Quran isn't a book of science or a historical book or astrology book but it gets it right when even the scientists were wrong until a few years back. SubhanAllah.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I have already answered all the questions you are asking. You are not here for a serious debate you are just here to preach. You do not care about the ither sides perspective you are just here to regurgitate what Hamza and other people who profit from religion are saying.

I was niave enough to waste hours before reply to your questions but it seems like you didnt even bother reading it. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Im not going to waste any time replying to you.

I don't know what you're talking about.

It doesn't invalidate his serious arguments in favor of the Holy quran. Even i at the time showed you how different Quranic depiction of embryology was from Galenic and Aristotles but you completely ignore that.

Explain the word Alaqa. You ran away then and you're running away now. That's not all, if you watch the video, hamza explains further verses regarding embryos. I don't have time to type that.

There is also no explanation for how the Prophet Muhammed (Saww) could've copied the truth, or fixed the views of Greeks included in Holy Quran and discounted the lies. Accusing Quran copied from greeks puts you in a deeper hole because you then have to explain why the knowledge of Greeks was discounted of they were taken as authorities on medicine.

You have also evaded the Holy Quran challenge. For 1400 years nobody has been to even explain how the Holy Quran manages to be the way it is now, the choice of words is unprecedented in the way they're used and the meaning they impart. I was reading some other scholars examination of the numerology in Holy Quran and it's miraculous itself. Very different than the flawed and pointless numerology biblical scholar try.

No body has even come close to copying the Holy Quran. I don't know linguistics and it's not my area but the people who are unanimously both Muslim and non Muslim linguistics agree on the unexplainable miraculous nature of Holy Quran and fail to produce anything like it. Not even a chapter or verse

In my time watching these debates with atheists, not a single one even has a counter argument to the miracales of holy quran, not to the holy quran challenge. The best i have seen is this accusation of greeks knowledge but it's an absurd argument. The holy quran corrects greeks and is different and accurate to today's knowledge. I have shown you briefly, hamza goes into details.

What's miraculous even more is holy Quran isn't a book of science or a historical book or astrology book but it gets it right when even the scientists were wrong until a few years back. SubhanAllah.

 

[Steyn]

I have already answered all the questions you are asking. You are not here for a serious debate you are just here to preach. You do not care about the ither sides perspective you are just here to regurgitate what Hamza and other people who profit from religion are saying.

I was niave enough to waste hours before reply to your questions but it seems like you didnt even bother reading it. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Im not going to waste any time replying to you.

The fact is you thought i was some gullible ignorant Muslim of Pakistan who didn't know his religion, you even said so yourself. When i responded and showed you evidence to the contrary you jumped from one person to another in history. Then when it came to embryology, you made some accusations which are unfounded and even on a very shallow reading of Holy Quran holds no ground.

I assume you've run out of excuses, i don't blame you this is a common theme with this religion of atheism. Grasping at straws and without fail not a single one can ever tackle the Holy Quran. They attack bible, jews bla nla and generalise Holy Quran then call themselves logical.

As the Holy Quran says when the disbelievers are thrown into the Hellfire, they will say woe to us and woe to the people who we followed, they should be punished double and they will regret their actions.

Not a single one will say they've been wronged. Or the message hasn't reached them.

Maybe you don't like me or hamza or anyone else but you owe it to your own self to look at this from an unbiased eyes, the eyes of a newly born unconditioned child and then come to a conclusion. You're only following what others have told you and call that truth

 

[Vitamin_C]

I have no interest in listening to your sermons and preaching and you have no interest in a debate or knowing the truth. If you want to believe in fairies, angels, ginis and flying horses with human faces then you are welcome. But spare me from this nonsense.

Hamza came to my university few years ago, I know all his positions, there is nothing new in it, the same old arguments that the Christians failed with, he is refurbishing it for his use. Whatever you are saying has been debunked hundreds of years ago, I am bored of listening same bullshit arguments over and over again, just do a simple google search and read the other side of the argument as well rather than looking for specific information that supports your superstitious beliefs.

The truth all around you and you do not need me for it, it will come to you when you are ready for it. Deep inside you have some unease about the superstitious non-sense that you believe in.

You are not looking for the truth you are looking for some reason to help you with the pesky cognitive dissonance that is bothering you deep inside.

The fact is you thought i was some gullible ignorant Muslim of Pakistan who didn't know his religion, you even said so yourself. When i responded and showed you evidence to the contrary you jumped from one person to another in history. Then when it came to embryology, you made some accusations which are unfounded and even on a very shallow reading of Holy Quran holds no ground.

I assume you've run out of excuses, i don't blame you this is a common theme with this religion of atheism. Grasping at straws and without fail not a single one can ever tackle the Holy Quran. They attack bible, jews bla nla and generalise Holy Quran then call themselves logical.

As the Holy Quran says when the disbelievers are thrown into the Hellfire, they will say woe to us and woe to the people who we followed, they should be punished double and they will regret their actions.

Not a single one will say they've been wronged. Or the message hasn't reached them.

Maybe you don't like me or hamza or anyone else but you owe it to your own self to look at this from an unbiased eyes, the eyes of a newly born unconditioned child and then come to a conclusion. You're only following what others have told you and call that truth

 

[Steyn]

I have no interest in listening to your sermons and preaching and you have no interest in a debate or knowing the truth. If you want to believe in fairies, angels, ginis and flying horses with human faces then you are welcome. But spare me from this nonsense.

Hamza came to my university few years ago, I know all his positions, there is nothing new in it, the same old arguments that the Christians failed with, he is refurbishing it for his use. Whatever you are saying has been debunked hundreds of years ago, I am bored of listening same bullshit arguments over and over again, just do a simple google search and read the other side of the argument as well rather than looking for specific information that supports your superstitious beliefs.

The truth all around you and you do not need me for it, it will come to you when you are ready for it. Deep inside you have some unease about the superstitious non-sense that you believe in.

You are not looking for the truth you are looking for some reason to help you with the pesky cognitive dissonance that is bothering you deep inside.

Pfff.. Atheists can't explain how the universe came into being and they're the ones preaching truth. The day an atheist proves how something came from nothing and stop relying on chance is the day i will start taking them seriously.

I am not a donkey that can blindly believe that some unknown gases came from nothing created this universe and it was all a chance.

Atheists are more faith based than Muslims. They believe that something came from nothing hahaha, that is so dumb.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Atheism is simply a rejection any theistic belief. It has no claim on where the universe comes from. While some atheists may believe that the universe come from nothing and some may believe that it did not come from nothing, these two statements have nothing to do with Atheism.

I suggest you do a little more research on the other side because it seems you do not even understand basic definitions and are confusing things. The origin of the Universe is a physics and cosmology question not a question regarding Atheism. Atheism only talks about rejection of Theistic claims.

Pfff.. Atheists can't explain how the universe came into being and they're the ones preaching truth. The day an atheist proves how something came from nothing and stop relying on chance is the day i will start taking them seriously.

I am not a donkey that can blindly believe that some unknown gases came from nothing created this universe and it was all a chance.

Atheists are more faith based than Muslims. They believe that something came from nothing hahaha, that is so dumb.

 

[Steyn]

Atheism is simply a rejection any theistic belief. It has no claim on where the universe comes from. While some atheists may believe that the universe come from nothing and some may believe that it did not come from nothing, these two statements have nothing to do with Atheism.

I suggest you do a little more research on the other side because it seems you do not even understand basic definitions and are confusing things. The origin of the Universe is a physics and cosmology question not a question regarding Atheism. Atheism only talks about rejection of Theistic claims.

You still didn't answer my question.

You keep saying Muslims are deluded and you know some truth that we don't. Well, what is the truth? How did the universe came into being? Googling this brings up Big Bang. Where did the gases for big bang came from? Isn't it more delusional to just reject God based on i don't know why you or a special snowflake of atheist is rejecting it based on but you say it's not because you know how this universe came into being.

If you want to live a life worshiping your desires then do that. I just don't understand how you can criticise Muslims when you can't answer a question that they can?. Also i don't understand why the hell can't someone defeat the Holy Quran's challenge and shut us up for good. It's a 1400 year old book, how hard is it to copy and bring a chapter like it has? The Holy Quran such an old book already mentions the universe was created from smoke and big bang is now telling us this.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Your problem is that you have a critical lack of understanding about the topics you are talking about. There were no gasses at the point of big bang. There was an infinitely dense and infinitely hot point and it contained al the matter in it.

Big bang does not claim we came from nothing, it says we came from a single infinitely dense point.

Atheists only reject God because there is no evidence for God. For big bang you can see red shift in every galaxy showing that everything is moving away from each other, you can detect and measure the cosmic background radiation from big bang, and you can even see the big bang happening if you have a powerful telescope that can see 13 billion light years away. You can use various dating techniques to varify this independently.

Surely if God existed, every piece of evidence would point towards him? How come there is not a single piece of evidence in the entire universe for this? Dont you think its a delusion to believe in something supernatural which you have no evidence for?

I hope that you google and understand what scientific evidence means because so far you have demonstrated that you dont

You still didn't answer my question.

You keep saying Muslims are deluded and you know some truth that we don't. Well, what is the truth? How did the universe came into being? Googling this brings up Big Bang. Where did the gases for big bang came from? Isn't it more delusional to just reject God based on i don't know why you or a special snowflake of atheist is rejecting it based on but you say it's not because you know how this universe came into being.

If you want to live a life worshiping your desires then do that. I just don't understand how you can criticise Muslims when you can't answer a question that they can?. Also i don't understand why the hell can't someone defeat the Holy Quran's challenge and shut us up for good. It's a 1400 year old book, how hard is it to copy and bring a chapter like it has? The Holy Quran such an old book already mentions the universe was created from smoke and big bang is now telling us this.

 

[Steyn]

Your problem is that you have a critical lack of understanding about the topics you are talking about. There were no gasses at the point of big bang. There was an infinitely dense and infinitely hot point and it contained al the matter in it.

Big bang does not claim we came from nothing, it says we came from a single infinitely dense point.

Atheists only reject God because there is no evidence for God. For big bang you can see red shift in every galaxy showing that everything is moving away from each other, you can detect and measure the cosmic background radiation from big bang, and you can even see the big bang happening if you have a powerful telescope that can see 13 billion light years away. You can use various dating techniques to varify this independently.

Surely if God existed, every piece of evidence would point towards him? How come there is not a single piece of evidence in the entire universe for this? Dont you think its a delusion to believe in something supernatural which you have no evidence for?

I hope that you google and understand what scientific evidence means because so far you have demonstrated that you dont

Gases, primary nebula, beginning hot matter whatever you want to call it, there's no explanation for where it came from.

And Holy Quran is the undeniable proof. I don't know what evidence do you want more than what the Holy Quran already has. It even mentions the ever expanding universe, are you gonna tell me it was copied from greeks or aristotle or idk where.

I mean there are people in this world who believe completely that the earth is flat so evidence doesn't really count for much if you want to believe or not believe in something.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Quran says universe is an Expanse/vastness (noun) meaning it is big and this is nothing new, same thing in almost every other religion and humans have known this for atleast 10,000 years. After the expanding universe discovery some dishonest mullahs changed the translation from expanse (noun) to expanding (verb). Find me one Tafsir or translation that was written before 19th century that says Universe is expanding?

Quran is a book. A book is not evidence. There has to be physical evidence that can be measured, observed, and verified by third party. I gave you example of evidence for big bang, where is evidence for God?

People can believe in whatever they want, Gods, Fairies, Ginis, Flat Earth. But if there is no evidence to support those claims there is no reason for any intelligent person to believe in it.

Just because no one knows where the universe comes from does not mean that you can pull something out of your arse and assert it without any evidence. We cannot make a judgement on any claim or assertion if we do not have evidence to believe it. This is called an argument from ignorance. Its the same argument Greeks used to say lightening is caused by Zeus throwing bolts from the sky.

Gases, primary nebula, beginning hot matter whatever you want to call it, there's no explanation for where it came from.

And Holy Quran is the undeniable proof. I don't know what evidence do you want more than what the Holy Quran already has. It even mentions the ever expanding universe, are you gonna tell me it was copied from greeks or aristotle or idk where.

I mean there are people in this world who believe completely that the earth is flat so evidence doesn't really count for much if you want to believe or not believe in something.