Allah guides who he wills! I think I have never thanked you directly for starting me on this journey. So thank you.
I remember when I was a traditional Muslim i.e typical hadithist as well infact maybe more than a typical hadithist, since unlike most who defend hadith I had actually read quite a lot of it and we would spar exactly like this! lol
No doubt, Allah guides who he wills, an individual just has to make a little effort to use the God-given intellect to think rationally and ponder upon the Quranic verses, instead of following something blindly.
It is not easy to come out of traditional hadith-based Islam and I am glad I could put forth my point of view in clarity.
No doubt, Allah guides who he wills, an individual just has to make a little effort to use the God-given intellect to think rationally and ponder upon the Quranic verses, instead of following something blindly.
It is not easy to come out of traditional hadith-based Islam and I am glad I could put forth my point of view in clarity.
That is why I also keep at it, maybe some day a ball will start rolling in someone's head and bring him out of this. Even if only one person, I would consider it worth all this trouble.
I can't believe I have to go over this again. Comparing the Quran, a divine revelation, something that was completely revealed in the lifetime of the Prophet, who then transmitted it to 100s if not 1000s of people and personally verified that is was transmitted correctly
Really? what is your source of information to all this? who told you that Muhammad (SAW) verified the Quran in his lifetime?
Then, why Muhammad (SAW) did not compile it in the shape of a book in his own lifetime? Why we should follow a book which was compiled by someone else than the Prophet (SAW), years after him?
If Quran was meant to be compiled in the form of a book, Allah (SWT) would have said so in the Quran. Since Quran is complete, therefore if it is not in the Quran, it is not acceptable. We should only read the original text of Quran as it was written on those leaves, parchments and shoulder blades of camels etc.
to some thing that was written centuries later in far off lands by persians majority based on khabr-e-wahid with the flawed methodology of he heard from x who heard from y so on and so forth going back generations and centuries of from which 100s if not 1000s have already been officially declared totally fabricated, unreliable or unverifiable by the champions of hadith themselves, the muhadithseen and this process goes on till today where everyday a new hadith is declared fabricated, weak or unverifiable.
Not talking right now about the major and so called most authentic after the Quran Bhukari in it self does not meet the standard of Sahih/Authentic as set by the hadith champions themselves, same story with Musnad of Ahmad.
So like I said trying to compare the Quran with hadith is not even in the same galaxy.
Really? what is your source of information to all this? who told you that Muhammad (SAW) verified the Quran in his lifetime?
Then, why Muhammad (SAW) did not compile it in the shape of a book in his own lifetime? Why we should follow a book which was compiled by someone else than the Prophet (SAW), years after him?
If Quran was meant to be compiled in the form of a book, Allah (SWT) would have said so in the Quran. Since Quran is complete, therefore if it is not in the Quran, it is not acceptable. We should only read the original text of Quran as it was written on those leaves, parchments and shoulder blades of camels etc.
Seriously you are brining forth such childish arguments that I am finding it really hard not to just ignore them like the ramblings of some 5 year old moronic kid.
This whole story of how the Quran was complied is all taken from your hadith and goes against what the Quran says about it self.
Exactly, then why believe in something when most of fake only some isn't. Would you believe and follow the Quran even if the smallest surah in it was fake? Like I said earlier you wouldn't buy a used car with the same premise you believe in hadith. Then how do you blindly handover your eternal sole to such flaky text?
Oh the same flaky hadith tells you this. Thabit says in Abu Dawood (I think) Wallahi if Abu Bakr had ordered me to move a mountain it would have been easier for me than to collect the Quran. So he goes on to collect the Quran.
So we are to believe that the primary sacred text of the Muslims, who rule an empire now is scattered all over the place, written on tit bits on palm leaves, dried skins, plant stalks, donkey bones and memories of men! Wow what a story.
The greatest Prophet of all time is revealed the ultimate message from God and the Muslims have such high regard for it that it is just casually written on what ever was handy at the time and then stowed away like old news paper clippings
Subhan Allah!
The Quran itself gives it self a name, the Quran i.e something complete. The Quran again and again refers to itself as a book many times. Zalik al kitab la raiba fi ha. This is a book in which there is no doubt. Does this sound like a hodge podge collection of text strew across all over the place?
Surah Abasa 11 to 14
No! Indeed these verses are a reminder. So who ever wills may remember them. Written on honoured Pages. By the hands of noble and virtuous scribes.
Hmmm. Very different from your hadith says now isn't it? Once again your hadith in total contradiction with the Quran.
So will you now accept what the Quran says, because for months you have been lamenting that the Quran is your hadithist primary source and if any hadith contradicts it, you shall disregard it.
So now this is a test for you.
Will you now follow your own rules and believe what the Quran says over the story told by hadith?
Most probably not, because you people just like to say your religion is from the Quran but it isn't. You will try to find some angle, do some more verbal gymnastics, jump through more mental hoops to justify the fantastical tale told in the hadith as true.
Because god forbid you cannot disrespect and blaspheme against the hadith now can you! The Quran, eh, not so much.
Seriously you are brining forth such childish arguments that I am finding it really hard not to just ignore them like the ramblings of some 5 year old moronic kid.
Will you now follow your own rules and believe what the Quran says over the story told by hadith?
Most probably not, because you people just like to say your religion is from the Quran but it isn't. You will try to find some angle, do some more verbal gymnastics, jump through more mental hoops to justify the fantastical tale told in the hadith as true.
Because god forbid you cannot disrespect and blaspheme against the hadith now can you! The Quran, eh, not so much.
Abdel Haleem, Dr Mustafa Kamal, Dr T.B Irving, The Ruwwad Center have all translated it as pages, and many others as scrolls or book. Plus I speak decent Arabic too and I would have translated it as pages too. It's not a difficult or word not in common useage.
Sorry if I take their translation ( and mine ) over yours and hence collapsing your latest argument.
you people just like to say your religion is from the Quran but it isn't. You will try to find some angle, do some more verbal gymnastics, jump through more mental hoops to justify the fantastical tale told in the hadith as true.
Because god forbid you cannot disrespect and blaspheme against the hadith now can you! The Quran, eh, not so much.
And that's exactly what you've done. Thrown aside all common sense, logical arguments and the Quran itself to protect your fantastical story in the hadith.
Does it make any sense that the Quran which was revealed to Prophet Mohammad was not compiled during his lifetime?
Quran existed during the lifetime of the
Prophet whereas the hadith literature
came and was compiled a 200
plus years after the death of the
Prophet and even the hadith literature
will tell you this.
The Quran was compiled and approved by
God, His Messenger, and, the direct
companions of the Prophet whereas the
hadith literature was never approved by
God never witnessed by His Messenger and
never indeed witnessed by his
companions. The prophet's companions did not live for 200 plus years after his death.
75:16 Move not your tongue with it, [O Muhammad], to hasten with recitation of the Qur'an 75:17 Indeed, upon Us is its collection [in your heart] and [to make possible] its recitation
75:18 So when We have recited it [through Gabriel], then follow its recitation 75:19 Then upon Us is its clarification [to you]
So, all of them do not have a unified translation of the word.
کتاب is the word specifically used in Quran for the book. صُحُف is the word used with "Revelations" in Quran.
Now, when Quran talks about Ibrahim (A.S) & Musa (A.S) as in 87:19, remember, the paper was not invented by then. It was invented just 2,000 years ago.
Sorry, but you seem quite obsessed with the idea of just winning an argument, rather than finding the truth, accepting the truth and following it. I know, for this reason, you will take whatever just supports your argument, may it be even be a distortion.
Who are you to fix it? Now giving you a warning here. You cannot obtrude something related to my belief like this. I knew you will stoop to the level of personal slanders, this just depicts your level of knowledge, understanding and mental condition.
And that's exactly what you've done. Thrown aside all common sense, logical arguments and the Quran itself to protect your fantastical story in the hadith.
What is so illogical to ask about the reference of your claim that "Muhammad (SAW) checked and approved the scriptures of Quran in his lifetime and was really the Quran was revealed on pages of paper?" Since you only declare Quran as your sole source, therefore, I expect a reference from Quran ascertaining your proposition.
However, you are not the single case I have come across in my life. Many like you, with different propositions and half cooked knowledge turn to inciting a fight when the hollowness of their arguments start thumping in their own ears. So, your agitation is understandable.
Now, you just don't want to accept one thing that the piece of information that "Muhammad (SAW) checked and verified the scriptures of Quran" came to you from sources other than Quran, and most probably through the accounts of the hadithist.
So, all of them do not have a unified translation of the word.
کتاب is the word specifically used in Quran for the book. صُحُف is the word used with "Revelations" in Quran.
Now, when Quran talks about Ibrahim (A.S) & Musa (A.S) as in 87:19, remember, the paper was not invented by then. It was invented just 2,000 years ago.
Now coming to the etymology of the word.
Do you know the word صحافت ?
or صحافی
A lifetime spent in swatting flies does not make you an entomologist. I speak Urdu, but still I am not an authority on the language.
Sorry, but you seem quite obsessed with the idea of just winning an argument, rather than finding the truth, accepting the truth and following it. I know, for this reason, you will take whatever just supports your argument, may it be even be a distortion.
Who are you to fix it? Now giving you a warning here. You cannot obtrude something related to my belief like this. I knew you will stoop to the level of personal slanders, this just depicts your level of knowledge, understanding and mental condition.
What is so illogical to ask about the reference of your claim that "Muhammad (SAW) checked and approved the scriptures of Quran in his lifetime and was really the Quran was revealed on pages of paper?" Since you only declare Quran as your sole source, therefore, I expect a reference from Quran ascertaining your proposition.
However, you are not the single case I have come across in my life. Many like you, with different propositions and half cooked knowledge turn to inciting a fight when the hollowness of their arguments start thumping in their own ears. So, your agitation is understandable.
Now, you just don't want to accept one thing that the piece of information that "Muhammad (SAW) checked and verified the scriptures of Quran" came to you from sources other than Quran, and most probably through the accounts of the hadithist.
Well if you don't want to accept the translations to protect your hadith which go against the Quran, up to you. You want to keep carrying on the stupidity of trying to compare divine revelations with man made stories written by defeated Persians centuries later i.e insult the Quran to protect your beloved hadith also up to you.
Because la iqaraha fid deen.
P.S : What's with the colourful and large sized fonts? Trust me this adds no weight or credence to your arguments. So please, at least when in discussion with me, refrain from this so it doesn't end up looking like the menu from Chuckie cheese pizza so what you say can be taken seriously.
Does it make any sense that the Quran which was revealed to Prophet Mohammad was not compiled during his lifetime?
Quran existed during the lifetime of the
Prophet whereas the hadith literature
came and was compiled a 200
plus years after the death of the
Prophet and even the hadith literature
will tell you this.
The Quran was compiled and approved by
God, His Messenger, and, the direct
companions of the Prophet whereas the
hadith literature was never approved by
God never witnessed by His Messenger and
never indeed witnessed by his
companions. The prophet's companions did not live for 200 plus years after his death.
75:16 Move not your tongue with it, [O Muhammad], to hasten with recitation of the Qur'an 75:17 Indeed, upon Us is its collection [in your heart] and [to make possible] its recitation
75:18 So when We have recited it [through Gabriel], then follow its recitation 75:19 Then upon Us is its clarification [to you]
A hadithist will never accept anything that can go against or blasphemes his hadith. Because nothing is more sacred to him than his hadith ( even though, he has hardly read much of it ). He will throw way 500 verses of the Quran if they go against one of his hadith. But yet still claims he follows the Quran.
Well if you don't want to accept the translations to protect your hadith which go against the Quran, up to you. You want to keep carrying on the stupidity of trying to compare divine revelations with man made stories written by defeated Persians centuries later i.e insult the Quran to protect your beloved hadith also up to you.
Looks like you are out of any logical rebuttal or a solid evidence.
صُحُف is a word not meaning a paper, but a piece of information, either a journal or something else. It is successfully established in the light of the wordings of Quran.
Therefore, your argument that Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) approved the copy of Quran in his own lifetime is not based on Quranic information. The obvious source to this information are the books of Hadithists.
So, you are busted here in wide open. Though, you tried much of your verbal gymnastics to derail the argument, but it proved in vain.
You can refer to my earliest posts in this regard in the previous thread where we started all this.... I categorically said that I have nothing to do with what you believe for yourself. However, if you start to criticize others, then its a different ball game.
P.S : What's with the colourful and large sized fonts? Trust me this adds no weight or credence to your arguments. So please, at least when in discussion with me, refrain from this so it doesn't end up looking like the menu from Chuckie cheese pizza so what you say can be taken seriously.
I told you earlier that I do not take any dictates from anyone. I write the way I like and that is enough for a justification. So, you are barking up to the wrong tree here.
It's very simple logic! How can a Messenger of God leave this world and yet there's no message (The Quran) left behind? How come the entire compilation process is happening after his death, it does not make sense.
It's very simple logic! How can a Messenger of God leave this world and yet there's no message (The Quran) left behind? How come the entire compilation process is happening after his death, it does not make sense.
? ............ Stop trying to inject logic into blind faith. Because the hadithist have no issue going against the Quran or insulting the Prophet that the one mission he was given by God, that is to deliver the message, he failed to do that.
Looks like you are out of any logical rebuttal or a solid evidence.
صُحُف is a word not meaning a paper, but a piece of information, either a journal or something else. It is successfully established in the light of the wordings of Quran.
Therefore, your argument that Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) approved the copy of Quran in his own lifetime is not based on Quranic information. The obvious source to this information are the books of Hadithists.
So, you are busted here in wide open. Though, you tried much of your verbal gymnastics to derail the argument, but it proved in vain.
Even for arguments sake we take your translation that it means revelation. In all your quoted examples it is the most poor fitting or does not fit at all
53:36
Or has he not been informed of what was in the scriptures of Moses
— Saheeh International
Has he not been told what was written in the Scriptures of Moses
— Abdul Haleem
Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses-
— English Translation (Yusuf Ali)
Or has he not been informed of what is in the Scriptures of Moses,
— Ruwwad Center
Or has he not been notified about what was on Moses' scrolls
— Dr. T. B. Irving
Vs
Or has he not been informed of what was in the revelations of Moses
— Sohail Shujah
Has he not been told what was written in the revelations of Moses
— Sohail Shujah
Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the revelations of Moses-
— Sohail Shujah
Or has he not been informed of what is in the revelations of Moses,
— Sohail Shujah
Or has he not been notified about what was on Moses' revelations
— Sohail Shujah
74:52
Rather, every person among them desires that he would be given scriptures spread about.
— Saheeh International
Each one of them demands that a scripture be sent down to him and unrolled before his very eyes-
— Abdul Haleem
Forsooth, each one of them wants to be given scrolls (of revelation) spread out!
— English Translation (Yusuf Ali)
In fact, each one of them desires that open [divine] letters be sent to each of them.
— Ruwwad Center
Yet every last man among them wants to be handed scriptures all spread out!
— Dr. T. B. Irving
VS
Rather, every person among them desires that he would be given revelation spread about.
— Sohail Shujah
Each one of them demands that a revelation be sent down to him and unrolled before his very eyes-
— Sohail Shujah
Forsooth, each one of them wants to be given revelation spread out!
— Sohail Shujah
In fact, each one of them desires that revelation be sent to each of them.
— Sohail Shujah
Yet every last man among them wants to be handed revelation all spread out!
— Sohail Shujah
81:10
And when the pages1 are spread [i.e., made public]
— Saheeh International
when the records of deeds are spread open,
— Abdul Haleem
When the scrolls are laid open;
— English Translation (Yusuf Ali)
and when records of deeds are spread open,
— Ruwwad Center
when scriptures are unrolled,
— Dr. T. B. Irving
VS
And when the revelations are spread [i.e., made public]
— Sohail Shujah
when the revelations are spread open,
— Sohail Shujah
When the revelations are laid open;
— Sohail Shujah
and when revelation of deeds are spread open,
— Sohail Shujah
when revelation are unrolled,
— Sohail Shujah
87:18-19
Indeed, this is in the former scriptures,
— Saheeh International
All this is in the earlier scriptures,
— Abdul Haleem
And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation),-
— English Translation (Yusuf Ali)
Indeed, this was in the earlier Scriptures,
— Ruwwad Center
This has been [written] on the earliest scrolls,
— Dr. T. B. Irving
The scriptures of Abraham and Moses.
— Saheeh International
the scriptures of Abraham and Moses.
— Abdul Haleem
The Books of Abraham and Moses.
— English Translation (Yusuf Ali)
the Scriptures of Abraham and Moses.
— Ruwwad Center
the scriptures of Abraham and Moses.
— Dr. T. B. Irving
VS
Indeed, this is in the former revelations,
— Sohail Shujah
All this is in the earlier revelations,
— Sohail Shujah
And this is in the revelations,-
— Sohail Shujah
Indeed, this was in the earlier revelations,
— Sohail Shujah
This has been [written] on the earliest scrolls,
— Sohail Shujah
The revelations of Abraham and Moses.
— Sohail Shujah
the revelations of Abraham and Moses.
— Sohail Shujah
The revelations of Abraham and Moses.
— Sohail Shujah
the revelations of Abraham and Moses.
— Sohail Shujah
the revelations of Abraham and Moses.
— Sohail Shujah
I'll go one further than you.
98:2
A Messenger from Allah, reciting purified scriptures
— Saheeh International
a messenger from God, reading out pages [blessed with] purity,
— Abdul Haleem
An messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:
— English Translation (Yusuf Ali)
a messenger from Allah, reciting pure pages
— Ruwwad Center
[through] a messenger from Allah (God) reciting purified pages
— Dr. T. B. Irving
VS
A Messenger from Allah, reciting purified revelations
— Sohail Shujah
a messenger from God, reading out revelations [blessed with] purity,
— Sohail Shujah
An messenger from Allah, rehearsing revelations kept pure and holy:
— Sohail Shujah
a messenger from Allah, reciting pure revelations
— Sohail Shujah
[through] a messenger from Allah (God) reciting purified revelations
— Sohail Shujah
In fact it is a lot of things, but one thing it is not is revelation. Revelation is wahi وحي in Arabic just in case you didn't know, which apparently you don't.
Now I've given you examples of well established multiple translations of the Quran. Comparisons of pages/book/scripture/scroll vs your "revelation" and that revelation does not fit or is the poorest fit and examples from a well known Arabic lexicon
I know you are still not going believe any of this factual information because like I've been saying we cannot blaspheme against the hadith now can we.
So we are just going to throw away the Quran and all of this factual information because it does not fit our hadith and will go on to find some angle or silly loophole to do so.
You can refer to my earliest posts in this regard in the previous thread where we started all this.... I categorically said that I have nothing to do with what you believe for yourself. However, if you start to criticize others, then its a different ball game.
As a revelation that is self-explaining, fully detailed, complete, and with lessons easy-to-learn the Quran should be, according to the Quran itself, the only authority of Islam.
As the Quran itself claims, the Quran explains itself:
11:1 Alif-Lãm-Ra. ˹This is˺a Book whose verses are well perfected and then fully explained. ˹It is˺ from the One ˹Who is˺ All-Wise, All-Aware.
75:19 Then it is surely upon Us to make it clear ˹to you˺.
What is fascinating about the Quran is of a particular topic or account is contained in several related verses that are usually not in one place but scattered throughout the Book. Often one verse is associated with another in such a way that one supplement, explains, clarifies, or throws more light on another. Thus, according to the Quran’s own assertion, the Quran is not only the best hadith (ahsana alhadeethi 39:23) but it is also the best interpreter of itself (ahsana tafseeran 25:33) as it goes on its way clarifying its own messages.
17:41 And We have detailed things in this Quran in various ways so that they may receive admonition, yet it has only added to their aversion.
Follow what has been revealed to you from your Sustainer: there is no god but He, and turn away from those who set up associates. 6:106
And this is a blessed Scripture that We have sent down, so follow it and be aware, that you may receive mercy. 6:155
Follow what has been sent down to you all from your Sustainer, and follow no masters other than Him. Little do you remember!7:3
When Our clear messages are recited to them, those who wish not to meet Us say, “Bring a Quran other than this, or change it!” Say, “It is not for me to change it on my own, I only follow what is revealed to me.” 10:15
Even for arguments sake we take your translation that it means revelation. In all your quoted examples it is the most poor fitting or does not fit at all
Did I ever say that it MEANS "Revelations"?
I said it is USED WITH revelations.
Yes, the closest word would be "Scriptures", and do you know what "Scripture" MEANS?
AND of course, the scriptures mentioned in Quran, as in cases of Ibrahim (AS), MUSA (AS) and the Quran itself are all revelations from Allah (SWT). Any doubts about it?
Again, refer to my post # 51 on this thread:
صُحُف is a word not meaning a paper, but a piece of information, either a journal or something else.
But, while being overridden by your furor, you just could not concentrate on what actually was written by me. You were just running under your own presumptions.
That is a typical problem with self proclaimed righteous ones, who think that everything from them is just right.
53:36
Or has he not been informed of what was in the scriptures of Moses
— Saheeh International
Has he not been told what was written in the Scriptures of Moses
— Abdul Haleem
Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses-
— English Translation (Yusuf Ali)
Or has he not been informed of what is in the Scriptures of Moses,
— Ruwwad Center
Or has he not been notified about what was on Moses' scrolls
— Dr. T. B. Irving
A page/leaf/sheet of a 'scripture' can be written on a parchment, a bone or can even be INSCRIBED in a stone. Isn't?
So, taking the word "scripture" definitely does not mean that the Quran was written in the form of a paper based book and neither does Quran refers anywhere to the form of medium on which it was copied firsthand.
In fact it is a lot of things, but one thing it is not is revelation. Revelation is wahi وحي in Arabic just in case you didn't know, which apparently you don't.
Now I've given you examples of well established multiple translations of the Quran. Comparisons of pages/book/scripture/scroll vs your "revelation" and that revelation does not fit or is the poorest fit and examples from a well known Arabic lexicon
I know you are still not going believe any of this factual information because like I've been saying we cannot blaspheme against the hadith now can we.
Tell us the source of your claims that:
1- Quran was compiled and verified by Muhammad (SAW) in his lifetime
2- Quran copied firsthand on the SHEETS OF PAPER, as it exists in the modern day.
So we are just going to throw away the Quran and all of this factual information because it does not fit our hadith and will go on to find some angle or silly loophole to do so.
Presumptions, presumptions and presumptions. Just trying to offend me in order to make this discussion end here so that you can save your face.
Come on, let me reinstate the questions once again:
1- From where did you get the knowledge that Quran was compiled by Muhammad (SAW) in his lifetime and verified the copy?
2- What makes you think that Quran was not copied firsthand on leaves, parchments, stone tablets and/or bones of camels etc?
It's very simple logic! How can a Messenger of God leave this world and yet there's no message (The Quran) left behind? How come the entire compilation process is happening after his death, it does not make sense.
You know what is even simpler than that is the fact that NO SUCH COPY EXISTS which is said to have been compiled by Muhammad (SAW) in his lifetime.
Though, the Prophet (SAW's) letters to different kings exist, with his "seal" on them. But no copy of Quran bears his seal as a gesture of his approval.
Now rather than trying to construe everything with your half-witted head, try to search about it and explain things on the rationales supported with evidence. Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.
The oldest manuscript of Quran that exists today is the one lying in Birmingham. It has been carbon dated and it is found that even that manuscript was written after 5 years of Prophet (SAW's) death. However, even that copy of Quran is not free of errors. The other oldest copy is the Sanaa manuscript, on which the Germans are doing a research from under the project Corpus Coranicum. It also dates after Muhammad (SAW) passed away.
I usually try to ignore your arguments as they are devoid of any knowledge but are obtrusively imbibed with the churnings of your own presumptions. So, next time, if you want me to engage in a fruitful discussion with you, then first try to infill your arguments with the critical mass of knowledge to make sense.
ROFL. A typical example of the one who gets blinded in fury to just win an argument. You are getting so predictable.
Refer to my post #48, the exact words I used are:
Did I ever say that it MEANS "Revelations"?
I said it is USED WITH revelations.
Yes, the closest word would be "Scriptures", and do you know what "Scripture" MEANS?
AND of course, the scriptures mentioned in Quran, as in cases of Ibrahim (AS), MUSA (AS) and the Quran itself are all revelations from Allah (SWT). Any doubts about it?
Again, refer to my post # 51 on this thread:
But, while being overridden by your furor, you just could not concentrate on what actually was written by me. You were just running under your own presumptions.
That is a typical problem with self proclaimed righteous ones, who think that everything from them is just right.
Alright, then let us take the word "scripture" as being the closest one.
ERRR... but again I have to refer you to my post.... I said
Your point was that Quran was not written on leafs, parchments and/or on the bones of shoulder blades of camels.
A page/leaf/sheet of a 'scripture' can be written on a parchment, a bone or can even be INSCRIBED in a stone. Isn't?
So, taking the word "scripture" definitely does not mean that the Quran was written in the form of a paper based book and neither does Quran refers anywhere to the form of medium on which it was copied firsthand.
Read above again. I don't like to repeat things unnecessarily.
?
Grossly off the point. You had to establish that Quran was not copied firsthand on to the mediums of parchments, bones, leaves and/or stones.
In fact, you are just beating around the bush.
Tell us the source of your claims that:
1- Quran was compiled and verified by Muhammad (SAW) in his lifetime
2- Quran copied firsthand on the SHEETS OF PAPER, as it exists in the modern day.
Presumptions, presumptions and presumptions. Just trying to offend me in order to make this discussion end here so that you can save your face.
Come on, let me reinstate the questions once again:
1- From where did you get the knowledge that Quran was compiled by Muhammad (SAW) in his lifetime and verified the copy?
2- What makes you think that Quran was not copied firsthand on leaves, parchments, stone tablets and/or bones of camels etc?
LOL, you sound annoyed! Happens when you get just can't make any headway. Like predicted such a huge lot of verbal gymnastics trying prove your hadith. Camels bones and leaves can be part of scripture but can never been the complete scripture. Your whole claim was صُحُف does not mean paper
As proved it actually does, so instead of recanting your false statement, as usual you jump to some other obtuse angle. Moving goal posts along the entire discussion every time you can't wiggle out the corner you constantly paint yourself in.
The Quran clarifies the point that it is in the form of a book written on pages. You can argue until you are blue in the face, bring another 100 book of hadith, but this fact does not change.
And you are asking all the wrong questions. You are the one claiming that Quran was written on leaves and donkey bones, so you have to prove that. I don't have to disprove that. The burden of proof is you not me.
All ancient manuscripts found of the Quran none on leaves or bone, specially close to the Prophets time. And talking of ancient manuscripts.
I'm so glad you brought up the Birmingham manuscript, that was going to be my next refutation to your expected jumping up and down and around. First of all you need to know how carbon dating works it cannot pinpoint an exact year, it can give you a range. But these are well within the range of his life or very shortly after. So the Quran almost as it is today and written on pages was around in that time period. That is now proven.
And all these claims you put forward are made by Saudi Mullahs because it does not fit into their narrative from the hadith. So it can't be from the Prophets time, it must be a palimpsest not from his time etc etc. Not only is it written on paper, its in the same sequence as the modern day Quran with chapter separators. This put the hadithists into a tail spin!
It is highly stupid and downright insulting (nauzubillah) to the Prophet and the creator himself who promises to protect the Quran, to think that the Messenger of Allah left this earth with out leaving behind THE Message. The one job he was given to do he failed and so much for divine protection!
And that some dude had to look high and low collecting leaves and bones. ?
In the end I'm going to believe what the Quran says about itself rather than flaky Persian stories of he heard from x who heard from y who heard from z who heard a who heard from b who heard from c. so on and so forth.
Like I said I wouldn't buy a used washing machine on that basis let alone put my beliefs, faith and mostly all my akhira on stake.
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