Quranists: Why only humans were sent with a message and not angels?

M

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Wake up Pak said:
For your information, Allah only revealed the Quran, not fabricated Ahadith or Sunnah.
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Dear wake up pak sb, it is true that Allah only revealed the quran for purpose based proper guidance of mankind but the quran cannot be acted upon without making purpose based proper sense of its text in its own proper context. This is where others can help us and they do help us otherwise we will still be as we were when we were born into this world.

In my posts on other threads I have made it absolutely clear that each and every human being needs 100% help and support of others to come into this world and to survive. Babies do not educate and train themselves as soon as they are born others bring them into this world and help them gain education, training and skills. All we need to judge is whether that education and training as well as the skills we gain lead us in the right direction which helps us live our lives better and better or they lead us in the wrong direction whereby we end up harmed, ruined and destroyed by hands of each other. So any individual piece of information needs to be judged to see whether it should be accepted or rejected in light real world realities. The idea about wholesale rejection of human produced and collected information which they have passed down our generations is not acceptable at all. Even the quran we have has come to us through other people in this world.

The second criterion for accepting and rejecting human produced information is the quran. Anything that goes against the quran is not acceptable at all no matter what but the condition is that the quranic text itself must be first understood purposefully properly in light of real world realities. If the quranic text itself is not understood purposefully properly in light of real world realities in the first place then how can anyone reject any other information about anything according to the quran?

This is why we cannot reject even normal human historical account let alone totally reject reports about the prophet and messenger of God till we understand all these things purposefully properly in light of real world realities as well as in light of the quran and then in light of each other purposefully properly.

Hopefully my explanation makes sense.

Regards and all the best.
 
Wake up Pak

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Mughal1 said:
Dear wake up pak sb, it is true that Allah only revealed the quran for purpose based proper guidance of mankind but the quran cannot be acted upon without making purpose based proper sense of its text in its own proper context. This is where others can help us and they do help us otherwise we will still be as we were when we were born into this world.

In my posts on other threads I have made it absolutely clear that each and every human being needs 100% help and support of others to come into this world and to survive. Babies do not educate and train themselves as soon as they are born others bring them into this world and help them gain education, training and skills. All we need to judge is whether that education and training as well as the skills we gain lead us in the right direction which helps us live our lives better and better or they lead us in the wrong direction whereby we end up harmed, ruined and destroyed by hands of each other. So any individual piece of information needs to be judged to see whether it should be accepted or rejected in light real world realities. The idea about wholesale rejection of human produced and collected information which they have passed down our generations is not acceptable at all. Even the quran we have has come to us through other people in this world.

The second criterion for accepting and rejecting human produced information is the quran. Anything that goes against the quran is not acceptable at all no matter what but the condition is that the quranic text itself must be first understood purposefully properly in light of real world realities. If the quranic text itself is not understood purposefully properly in light of real world realities in the first place then how can anyone reject any other information about anything according to the quran?

This is why we cannot reject even normal human historical account let alone totally reject reports about the prophet and messenger of God till we understand all these things purposefully properly in light of real world realities as well as in light of the quran and then in light of each other purposefully properly.

Hopefully my explanation makes sense.

Regards and all the best.
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Dear Mughal1,
If you agree that Allah only revealed the Quran, then why do we need man-made books that do not have credibility or authenticity, and were written some 200+ years after the demise of the Prophet Mohammad?
 
M

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
observer-x said:
Agreed. Idea is not only reading for rewards either right either.
Humans need a practical application of the book which is the life of Prophet SAW. People till the end of world need to follow footsteps of Prophet SAW to establish deen in the individual lives and the world at large. Sunnah does exactly that.

Its very easy for Quranists to say there are no 5 times prayers mentioned in Quran so I would not pray 5 times. Or Qibla is not defined as specifically Kaaba so we can turn anywhere and its Qibla. Not following sunnah is the start of misguidance that can lead you to eventually leaving Islam.
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Dear observer x sb, the quran does not talk about religion islam in sense of pooja paat rather it talks about a way of life, rule of law and governing system for mankind as islam. Ibaadah does not mean pooja paat, salaah does not mean namaaz, sowm does not mean roza, zakaah does not mean 2.5% annual charity by the rich for the poor and hajj does not mean visiting a little stone house in makkah once in life time for wealthy people etc etc in the purpose based porpe rcontext of the quranic text.

By stating all this you are proving that you are one of the blind followers of your ancestors and their mullahs. I suggest that you read my case against mullah interpretation of the quran and hadis. Then I want you to provided me with your own justifications for these things which can tackle my criticism about these things.

regards and all the best
 
M

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Wake up Pak said:
Dear Mughal1,
If you agree that Allah only revealed the Quran, then why do we need man-made books that do not have credibility or authenticity, and were written some 200+ years after the demise of the Prophet Mohammad?
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Dear wake up sb, I have explained this already so kindly read my post again. Even today for day to day things we still get reports as news from various sources to stay in touch with realities of our own time be they full of falsehood and useless information because not all reports are false and useless.

I know that humans make mistakes and even some deliberately but not each and everything we come to know through them is false and wrong. All we need is a criterion or standard or yardstick to judge things for ourselves whether we should accept them or reject them.

Human are prone to making mistakes because that is the way God has designed us to serve his purpose. This is why he has given us his two main yardsticks as well to go by ie real world realities and the quran for this era. This is why even when he tells us to be like minded with his prophet and messenger he tells us only and only regarding things about his assigned mission and not that even any prophet and messenger of his should be followed blindly all in all. Why not? Because in normal life even prophets and messengers of God also make mistakes like rest of us when they grow up after their birth. All because they too are just normal people but they have a God assigned mission to accomplish. For that they need help, support and backing of rest of people as well otherwise their mission cannot be accomplished. This is what I call sunnah of prophets and messengers of God. Not pooja paat and dressing up like them because these things change with time and place.

Their mission is to bring about and maintain a purpose based proper human community in kingdom of God according to his provided purpose based proper guidance for mankind with help and full support of each other through their complementing each other purposefully properly.

Regards and all the best.
 
Wake up Pak

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
Agreed. Idea is not only reading for rewards either right either.
Humans need a practical application of the book which is the life of Prophet SAW. People till the end of world need to follow footsteps of Prophet SAW to establish deen in the individual lives and the world at large. Sunnah does exactly that.

Its very easy for Quranists to say there are no 5 times prayers mentioned in Quran so I would not pray 5 times. Or Qibla is not defined as specifically Kaaba so we can turn anywhere and its Qibla. Not following sunnah is the start of misguidance that can lead you to eventually leaving Islam.
Click to expand...
The Quran is a book of guidance, and you are not guided by following the Prophet. Remember, the Prophet Mohammad is not in this world to be followed.
Does the Quran require you to pray 5 times a day? The Kaaba in Mecca you face and worship isn't a form of a Shirk?
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Mughal1 said:
Dear observer x sb, the quran does not talk about religion islam in sense of pooja paat rather it talks about a way of life, rule of law and governing system for mankind as islam. Ibaadah does not mean pooja paat, salaah does not mean namaaz, sowm does not mean roza, zakaah does not mean 2.5% annual charity by the rich for the poor and hajj does not mean visiting a little stone house in makkah once in life time for wealthy people etc etc in the purpose based porpe rcontext of the quranic text.
Click to expand...
How do you know? Did you get direct ILHAM from Allah for all those are not what we think they are?
Mughal1 said:
By stating all this you are proving that you are one of the blind followers of your ancestors and their mullahs. I suggest that you read my case against mullah interpretation of the quran and hadis. Then I want you to provided me with your own justifications for these things which can tackle my criticism about these things.
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What other mechanism do you have to follow Islam other than from pious predecessors?
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Wake up Pak said:
The Quran is a book of guidance, and you are not guided by following the Prophet.
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That is why your sect is considered misguided, you cherry pick Islam according to your desires and deny the legacy of Prophet SAW which is the beacon for us to follow until Day of Judgement.
Wake up Pak said:
Remember, the Prophet Mohammad is not in this world to be followed.
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His legacy is which you keep denying.
Wake up Pak said:
Does the Quran require you to pray 5 times a day? The Kaaba in Mecca you face and worship isn't a form of a Shirk?
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This is getting worse. How do you pray? Or do you even know how to pray?
 
Wake up Pak

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
That is why your sect is considered misguided, you cherry pick Islam according to your desires and deny the legacy of Prophet SAW which is the beacon for us to follow until Day of Judgemen
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How does following the Quran become a sect? In reality, you are following the sect blindly.

observer-x said:
His legacy is which you keep denying.
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What legacy? Elaborate on it.

observer-x said:
This is getting worse. How do you pray? Or do you even know how to pray?
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Since you pray 5 times a day facing a cubicle concrete structure named Kaaba, can you give me the details from the Quran on how to pray? I understand that you cannot prove it from the Quran, so let's refer to the ahadith. Can you provide the details from the ahadith?
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Wake up Pak said:
How does following the Quran become a sect? In reality, you are following the sect blindly.


What legacy? Elaborate on it.


Since you pray 5 times a day facing a cubicle concrete structure named Kaaba, can you give me the details from the Quran on how to pray? I understand that you cannot prove it from the Quran, so let's refer to the ahadith. Can you provide the details from the ahadith?
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So you don't pray like muslims, got it. How do YOU pray?
 
Wake up Pak

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
So you don't pray like muslims, got it. How do YOU pray?
Click to expand...
Since you pray 5 times a day facing a cubicle concrete structure named Kaaba, can you give me the details from the Quran on how to pray? I understand that you cannot prove it from the Quran, so let's refer to the ahadith. Can you provide the details from the ahadith?
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Wake up Pak said:
Since you pray 5 times a day facing a cubicle concrete structure named Kaaba, can you give me the details from the Quran on how to pray? I understand that you cannot prove it from the Quran, so let's refer to the ahadith. Can you provide the details from the ahadith?
Click to expand...
How do YOU pray? Tell me from your sources how to pray if Quran doesn't tell you how to pray.
 
M

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
observer-x said:
How do you know? Did you get direct ILHAM from Allah for all those are not what we think they are?
Click to expand...

Dear observer x sb, kindly start getting purpose based proper education, training and skills so that you could see for yourself why your line of reasoning does not make sense due to its logical inconsistencies. It is because you do not accept real world realities which I stated in my posts on other threads so you are confused about things.

You see if you put quran on top of real world realities instead of real world realities when they are supposed to be top most then you cannot make purpose based proper sense of the quran at all just as you cannot make purpose based proper sense of real world realities without getting help from the quran where the quran has to be on the top of real world realities because both the creation and the revelation of God are 100% dependent upon each other for their purpose based proper understanding by mankind.

Imagine if you were born in a christian or hindu etc household then you will have done the same ie you will have followed your ancestors blindly. This is why external yardstick is absolutely necessary for judging between scriptures and their alleged followers to reach the truth in this regard. Whatever logically consistently prove true cannot be accepted in one thing but rejected for another things when the very same logic applies to them both.

Did people whom you claim to follow do this? Some did others did not do so hence the difference of opinions between them. So we cannot follow people who differ about things between themselves instead we will have to judge things for ourselves to see what could be right and why and what could be wrong and why.

observer-x said:
What other mechanism do you have to follow Islam other than from pious predecessors?
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I have explained this already and that is why I suggested you read through my posts, so hopefully you will go through my posts wherein I have raised many vitally important questions and provided answers for them regarding quran and islam.

regards and all the best.
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Mughal1 said:
Dear observer x sb, kindly start getting purpose based proper education, training and skills
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You're making judgements without knowing what I've studied and from where and how much.

Mughal1 said:
You see if you put quran on top of real world realities instead of real world realities when they are supposed to be top most then you cannot make purpose based proper sense of the quran at all just as you cannot make purpose based proper sense of real world realities without getting help from the quran where the quran has to be on the top of real world realities because both the creation and the revelation of God are 100% dependent upon each other for their purpose based proper understanding by mankind.

Imagine if you were born in a christian or hindu etc household then you will have done the same ie you will have followed your ancestors blindly.
Click to expand...
Again, you're making assumptions. You don't know how many religions I've researched, practiced and followed before finally choosing Islam.
 
Wake up Pak

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
You'll go into your grave and I'll into mine.
What I do or not do should not change your relations with Allah in worship.
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It shows your mental level of understanding of the Quran. Neither you can translate a simple verse, nor you can give the details of Namaz from your beloved fabricated ahadith.
You should be ashamed of yourself!!!
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Wake up Pak said:
It shows your mental level of understanding of the Quran. Neither you can translate a simple verse, nor you can give the details of Namaz from your beloved fabricated ahadith.
You should be ashamed of yourself!!!
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We have books and books of translations of Quran that our pious predecessors wrote for our disposal. And books and books of hadith books and their exegesis for us to learn from. All of those is what I represent, read it as if I wrote it.

What do you have?
 
Wake up Pak

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
We have books and books of translations of Quran that our pious predecessors wrote for our disposal. And books and books of hadith books and their exegesis for us to learn from. All of those is what I represent, read it as if I wrote it.

What do you have?
Click to expand...
It shows your mental level of understanding of the Quran. Neither you can translate a simple verse, nor you can give the details of Namaz from your beloved fabricated ahadith.
You should be ashamed of yourself!!!
 
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