Quranist/ Parwezi glossary of religious terms.

Citizen X

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
I get it you know the definition will include rituals and its a checkmate for you and your ideology
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No the definition does not include rituals that was my whole point, if it's not then surely you can prove it from the Quran. Rather its your ideology that has these foriegn rituals tied down as Ibadat.

observer-x said:
But using اطاعت to mean عبادات, it is disingenuous.
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No the only disingenuous thing here is you forcefully trying to steer me towards your rituals do exist and are part of worship. But I think you're forgetting something that I only believe in the Quran, so using your external sources trying to prove your rituals is not going to work.

So maybe try another angle.
observer-x said:
Wait.. let me ask you this, is there a word توحيد in Quran?
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No the word does not exist. But neither does the word ديناصور but that doesn't mean I believe they didn't exist.

And similarly I am very familiar with the concept and absolute belive in that concept, because if you read the Quran that is the concept that is driven home the most.

And now let me prempt you before you ask how come you believe in tawheed when it doesn't appear in the Quran and yet don't believe in XYZ because that also doesn't appear in the Quran. Because the explantion of the word tawheed goes in line with the teachings of the Quran and XYZ don't
 
Citizen X

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
Too many assumptions bro. I won't go into more details on this.
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Where was the assumption? So maybe you should go into details.

I just clarified my point about having an unbaised and open mind when reading the Quran in order to properly understand it. Tell me I am wrong that when you read salat, you don't think it means your 5 tiimes ritual prayer. Tell me I am wrong you don't think of roza when you read the word saum.
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Citizen X said:
No the definition does not include rituals that was my whole point, if it's not then surely you can prove it from the Quran. Rather its your ideology that has these foriegn rituals tied down as Ibadat.
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I won't let you run away from it. What is the definition of عبادات? without using the meaning of اطاعت instead?
Citizen X said:
And now let me prempt you before you ask how come you believe in tawheed when it doesn't appear in the Quran and yet don't believe in XYZ because that also doesn't appear in the Quran. Because the explantion of the word tawheed goes in line with the teachings of the Quran and XYZ don't
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Why do you believe in توحيد when its not Quran as a word? Whereas your whole premise for rejecting حقوق الله was coz its not Quran?
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Citizen X said:
Similarly when you read the Quran with your previous biases still clouding your mind, you will not be able to understand it. For example Everytime you will read the word salah you will automatically think this means your ritual namaz. You will not even consider that it could mean anything else but namaz or read further on or compare the use of the word salat everytime it occurs in the Quran and see if namaz actually fits into those verses. Or when it say Attiur Rasool your mind will automatically think this means hadith, so on and so forth.
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Tell me from your ideology what comes to your mind when you see word اطيعوا الرسول? And the reason for why that comes to your mind?

Background on this, we believe we don't understand deen from subjective perspective (nafs and shaytan being the dangers) but rather from scholars (كبائر) and hence its an objective opinion. Why do you prefer subjective opinion, are you free from nafs and shaytan's temptations?
 
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Citizen X

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
I won't let you run away from it. What is the definition of عبادات?
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I cannot put it any clearer than I already have and no matter how many times you ask me, the answer will never be your rituals to the definition of Ibadat.
Why do you believe in توحيد when its not Quran as a word? Whereas your whole premise for rejecting حقوق الله was coz its not Quran?
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I already prempted your question and answered it so I didn't have to do it again? 🤨

Just in case you forgot what I said
And now let me prempt you before you ask how come you believe in tawheed when it doesn't appear in the Quran and yet don't believe in XYZ because that also doesn't appear in the Quran. Because the explantion of the word tawheed goes in line with the teachings of the Quran and XYZ don't
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Tell me from your ideology what comes to your mind when you see word اطيع الرسول?
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Exactly what the it means. Obey the messenger. And what was the messenger's doing and what was his duty

5.67 O you Messenger ,convey what has been revealed to you from your LORD ,and if you do not , then you have not conveyed HIS message , but GOD will protect you from the people . Indeed, GOD does not guide the disbelieving people .

24.54 Say, “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, then he is only responsible for his duty and you are responsible for yours. And if you obey him, you will be guided. The Messenger’s duty is only to deliver.

98.1-2 The disbelievers from the People of the Book and the polytheists were not going to desist until the clear proof came to them. A messenger from Allah, reciting scrolls of purity

2.119 We have surely sent you with the truth, as a deliverer of good news and a warner. And you will not be accountable for the residents of the Hellfire.

I guess you get the jist. No where does it say, you have to sleep on the same side as he did or keep a beard like he did, dress like he did so on and so forth.
 
Citizen X

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
Background on this, we believe we don't understand deen from subjective perspective
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With all due respect. I really don't care what you believe in. I only care about what the Quran says
observer-x said:
but rather from scholars (كبائر) and hence its an objective opinion.
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Again I don't deal in opinions but rather facts and truth i.e Quran. Once again no offense intended and as explained earlier if you are following your scholars, then they are your mabudhs and following them means you are doing ibadah of your mabudh.

observer-x said:
Why do you prefer subjective opinion
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I just stated I don't follow any opinions.

are you free from nafs and shaytan's temptations?
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AND now you are forcing your own understanding and beliefs on me that according to you I must be following "subjective opinion" so that automatically must mean the above qouted statement.

And then you say I make too many assumptions.
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
What's the point of discussion when you literally slap a half baked response (wrong or right - its a different story) on someone's face and not want to clarify when asked for it?

Forums are great for hit and run type of discussions. You've been a huge disappointment.
 
Citizen X

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
Citizen X you're basically absolving yourself from answering any of the above questions.
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I cannot put it any clearer than I already have and no matter how many times you ask me, the answer will never be your rituals to the definition of Ibadat.
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You're running away.
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Quite the contrary, you're just stuck on one point and hoping somehow by asking me the same thing over and over again eventually I give you the answer you want me to give. Thats not runnig away. Thats called running out of material, because the direction you were trying to steer the conversation has hit a roadblock and now you don't know what to do and move on from here. So you keep crashing into the roadblock again and again.

What's the point of discussion when you literally slap a half baked response
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A discussion is suppose to be a two way street but till now its been more of an iterrogation than anything else. Look at your repetitive questions ( which have been answered many times ) and dismissive reponses and replies and never addressing any points compared to detailed line by line with references replies from me. ( like I said an interrogation )

And you are saying my responses are halfbaked? And you accuse me not answering question and running. Please explain how. No really I want to know. AND I EXPECT A DETAILED REPLY

You've been a huge disappointment.
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Yeah because I went off your script, like I said this is not my first rodeo and I see the "traps" you folk try to lay from miles ahead, and now you don't know how to go any further.

I can probably prempt what you are going do next, declare somekind of unilateral victory making some excuse and then tap out. I hope you don't. But this is what always happens. So I won't be surprised if you do.
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Citizen X said:
Quite the contrary, you're just stuck on one point and hoping somehow by asking me the same thing over and over again eventually I give you the answer you want me to give.
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I know you like hit and run type of comments.
Citizen X said:
Thats not runnig away. Thats called running out of material, because the direction you were trying to steer the conversation has hit a roadblock and now you don't know what to do and move on from here. So you keep crashing into the roadblock again and again.


A discussion is suppose to be a two way street but till now its been more of an iterrogation than anything else.
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I know you don't like going point by point to reach a conclusion, you run out of steam.
Citizen X said:
Look at your repetitive questions ( which have been answered many times ) and dismissive reponses and replies and never addressing any points compared to detailed line by line with references replies from me. ( like I said an interrogation )
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Again, you think answering is just a formality, say whatever and escape. If anyone asks what BS was that you reply I already answered.
Citizen X said:
And you are saying my responses are halfbaked? And you accuse me not answering question and running. Please explain how. No really I want to know. AND I EXPECT A DETAILED REPLY
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Recent one of many examples: You quoted اطاعت when asked about عبادت and think no one realized your بھنڈ
Now you don't want to revisit coz you know what you've done.
Citizen X said:
Yeah because I went off your script, like I said this is not my first rodeo and I see the "traps" you folk try to lay from miles ahead, and now you don't know how to go any further.
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You've already dug your grave and you know you'll eventually fall. That's why you're running.
Citizen X said:
I can probably prempt what you are going do next, declare somekind of unilateral victory making some excuse and then tap out. I hope you don't. But this is what always happens. So I won't be surprised if you do.
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You already escaped. You don't want to revisit all your بھنڈ

I thought you'd prove me wrong by having a proper discussion leading up to some mutual agreement. I feel sorry for you for all your claims.
 
Wake up Pak

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
An excerpt from the book "Muslims' Greatest Challenge" Choosing between Tradition and Islam.
observer-x Citizen X

Who are you to speak about Islam? What qualifications do you have to
discuss the Mushaf, let alone write a book about Islam? Are you a
sheikh (religious figure)? Are you a mufti (religious edict issuer)? Are
you a hujjat (high-ranking jurisprudence scholar)? Are you an alim (re
ligious scholar)? Have you studied at al-Azhar, Medina, Najaf, or Qum?
Do you have an ijaza (certificate) from a sheikh? How many Prophetic
narratives have you memorized after all? Did you memorize the
Mushaf? But what if your claims were wrong? Are you not afraid of com
mitting a sin and ending up in hellfire? Are you more knowledgeable
than all those ulama (Muslim scholars) to challenge their consensus or
their commentaries on religion and their respected knowledge and ilm
(science)? Are you claiming that everyone else is wrong in his or her
understanding of Islam and you are the only one who is right? Are you
an expert in the Arabic language to comment on the Mushaf? These
are a few examples of the types of interrogatory and intimidating questions
that I have encountered whenever I have presented what I believe
to be logical, if unconventional, interpretations of the Mushaf, or when
ever I questioned prevailing doctrines considered by many as an integral part of Islam.
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Wake up Pak said:
observer-x Do you believe in the Quran? If you do, why don't you accept the validity of the Quran?
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I believe in Allah, Quran, Prophet SAW being the last Messenger and Prophet, All Angels, All prophets from Adam AS to Prophet SAW, All scriptures sent to other prophets, Qada wal Qadr. I accept the validity of all of the above.

Can you claim the same?
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Wake up Pak said:
An excerpt from the book "Muslims' Greatest Challenge" Choosing between Tradition and Islam.
observer-x Citizen X

Who are you to speak about Islam? What qualifications do you have to
discuss the Mushaf, let alone write a book about Islam? Are you a
sheikh (religious figure)? Are you a mufti (religious edict issuer)? Are
you a hujjat (high-ranking jurisprudence scholar)? Are you an alim (re
ligious scholar)? Have you studied at al-Azhar, Medina, Najaf, or Qum?
Do you have an ijaza (certificate) from a sheikh? How many Prophetic
narratives have you memorized after all? Did you memorize the
Mushaf? But what if your claims were wrong? Are you not afraid of com
mitting a sin and ending up in hellfire? Are you more knowledgeable
than all those ulama (Muslim scholars) to challenge their consensus or
their commentaries on religion and their respected knowledge and ilm
(science)? Are you claiming that everyone else is wrong in his or her
understanding of Islam and you are the only one who is right? Are you
an expert in the Arabic language to comment on the Mushaf? These
are a few examples of the types of interrogatory and intimidating questions
that I have encountered whenever I have presented what I believe
to be logical, if unconventional, interpretations of the Mushaf, or when
ever I questioned prevailing doctrines considered by many as an integral part of Islam.
Click to expand...
I'm no authority to validate/ invalidate any text of any book someone has written. Probably you do.
 
Wake up Pak

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
observer-x said:
I believe in Allah, Quran, Prophet SAW being the last Messenger and Prophet, All Angels, All prophets from Adam AS to Prophet SAW, All scriptures sent to other prophets, Qada wal Qadr. I accept the validity of all of the above.

Can you claim the same?
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Believing in something without following Allah's Quran will not secure your place in Paradise.
 
O

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
Wake up Pak said:
Believing in something without following Allah's Quran will not secure your place in Paradise.
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You asked me if I believe in Quran, when I replied yes and mentioned other important concept that I believe in too, now you're saying believing in not enough.

Dummy Feeling Dumb GIF
 
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