Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Well the claim is often made that if you say the transmission of the hadith is problematic and has grave issues then in turn you are also saying that you have a problem with the transmission of the Quran also because it was done by the same people the same way. Lets look into that if it really is the case.
Anyone who says this first of all really doesn't understand how the Quran was transmitted. Quran was transmitted on mass by people, they taught it to their children they taught it to their neighbors they taught it to their friends people conveyed the message of the Quran before the arrival or advent of institutionalization so as a natural deen of fitrah the Quran was being transmitted on mass and wide spread. This became just a natural living practice that people were passing on the Quran one could say from father to child.
The Quran by its nature ontologically in it essence is a recitation, it's a recital of something, it's not it's not prose. The word Quran itself comes from the root word Q R A which means to read ( Iqra ) or something to be recited. The Quran i,e The recitation or Something that is recited.
Same cannot be said about the hadith at all, very very few hadith are mass transmitted. The most transmitted hadith which ironically is The Prophet said "Whoever lies about me deliberately, let him take his seat in the Hellfire." is transmitted by only 60 people and according to whose numbers you want to accept there are any where from "very few" to 113.
Also it is a well know fact that several individuals throughout Islamic history have admitted to fabricating hadith, and in some cases, their confessions were recorded by scholars of hadith. Some did it for political, sectarian, or some believe it or not even for "pious" (well-intended but wrong) reasons.
Like Abu ‘Ismah Nuh ibn Abi Maryam who ironically fabricated hadith because he thought people were abandoning the Quran and paying more attention to the fiqh of Abu Hanifa. Then there were the extremist sects like the Gulat who openly confessed to inventing hadiths to support their ideologies. In some cases, when caught and interrogated by rulers or hadith scholars, fabricators confessed to making up hadiths to support certain dynasties, tribes, or sects.
Scholars like Ibn al-Jawzi, Ibn Hibbān, Al-Dhahabi, and Ibn ‘Adi are some who recorded these fabricator confessions.
These were self confessed fabricators, many hadith which have made into well know books have turned out to be fabrications later on.
Well then the argument continues is someone could have also fabricated verses of the Quran too. That is not possible because first of all as mentioned earlier too many people had access to the Quran, had memorized it so having to change all of that is almost an impossible task.
Second of all fabricating verses of the Quran is not an easy task if not impossible. The Quran often challenges people to bring forth something like it. To copy the language, the style and then have it blend into some surah and still have context and be meaningful is impossible and be in such a way that the reader doesn't realize this doesn't fit it and sounds like from a different author all together.
Also the Quran doesn't talk about certain specifics like one should follow lets say all Abbasi rulers. That kind of stuff would immediately become suspect.
To do that with hadith, is very easy. Because It has no particular style or context and many just starts and end abruptly. So for example I am a vegetable vendor and I want to increase my sales. I will come up with a hadith. The Prophet once said who ever eats the most vegetables will have his place in jannah next to me. And believe it or not this has actually happened. The famous hadith about the aubergine/eggplant/baigan. "The Prophet ﷺ loved to eat eggplant because it cures every disease."
Similarly it is very much possible someone who was upset at his wife who did not want to be intimate with him drummed up a hadith "If a man calls his wife to his bed and she refuses, and he spends the night angry with her, the angels will curse her until morning." Just so his wife would sleep with him. This hadith is there in Bukhari and Muslim and labeled Sahih but whose to say this or something like this didn't actually happen?
It is very sad and such a shame when people feel that they can strongarm others who question the authenticity of hadith based on sound reasoning by instantly throwing the Quran under the bus in an attempt to save the hadith by making absurd claims that by finding issues or criticizing the hadith you are questioning and criticizing the Quran as well.
To say the Quran was transmitted the same way and by the same people as the hadith is akin to saying that each verse of the Quran was with only one person because 95% or more of the hadith are Khabar Wahid i.e only single narrator and then some 200 years later someone came along gathered the Quran by tracking down 6,236 different people who all had been passed down the verses through several generations flawlessly and compiled into the Mushaf.
Now tell me was the Quran transmitted exactly like the hadith and by the same people?
Anyone who says this first of all really doesn't understand how the Quran was transmitted. Quran was transmitted on mass by people, they taught it to their children they taught it to their neighbors they taught it to their friends people conveyed the message of the Quran before the arrival or advent of institutionalization so as a natural deen of fitrah the Quran was being transmitted on mass and wide spread. This became just a natural living practice that people were passing on the Quran one could say from father to child.
The Quran by its nature ontologically in it essence is a recitation, it's a recital of something, it's not it's not prose. The word Quran itself comes from the root word Q R A which means to read ( Iqra ) or something to be recited. The Quran i,e The recitation or Something that is recited.
Same cannot be said about the hadith at all, very very few hadith are mass transmitted. The most transmitted hadith which ironically is The Prophet said "Whoever lies about me deliberately, let him take his seat in the Hellfire." is transmitted by only 60 people and according to whose numbers you want to accept there are any where from "very few" to 113.
Also it is a well know fact that several individuals throughout Islamic history have admitted to fabricating hadith, and in some cases, their confessions were recorded by scholars of hadith. Some did it for political, sectarian, or some believe it or not even for "pious" (well-intended but wrong) reasons.
Like Abu ‘Ismah Nuh ibn Abi Maryam who ironically fabricated hadith because he thought people were abandoning the Quran and paying more attention to the fiqh of Abu Hanifa. Then there were the extremist sects like the Gulat who openly confessed to inventing hadiths to support their ideologies. In some cases, when caught and interrogated by rulers or hadith scholars, fabricators confessed to making up hadiths to support certain dynasties, tribes, or sects.
Scholars like Ibn al-Jawzi, Ibn Hibbān, Al-Dhahabi, and Ibn ‘Adi are some who recorded these fabricator confessions.
These were self confessed fabricators, many hadith which have made into well know books have turned out to be fabrications later on.
Well then the argument continues is someone could have also fabricated verses of the Quran too. That is not possible because first of all as mentioned earlier too many people had access to the Quran, had memorized it so having to change all of that is almost an impossible task.
Second of all fabricating verses of the Quran is not an easy task if not impossible. The Quran often challenges people to bring forth something like it. To copy the language, the style and then have it blend into some surah and still have context and be meaningful is impossible and be in such a way that the reader doesn't realize this doesn't fit it and sounds like from a different author all together.
Also the Quran doesn't talk about certain specifics like one should follow lets say all Abbasi rulers. That kind of stuff would immediately become suspect.
To do that with hadith, is very easy. Because It has no particular style or context and many just starts and end abruptly. So for example I am a vegetable vendor and I want to increase my sales. I will come up with a hadith. The Prophet once said who ever eats the most vegetables will have his place in jannah next to me. And believe it or not this has actually happened. The famous hadith about the aubergine/eggplant/baigan. "The Prophet ﷺ loved to eat eggplant because it cures every disease."
Similarly it is very much possible someone who was upset at his wife who did not want to be intimate with him drummed up a hadith "If a man calls his wife to his bed and she refuses, and he spends the night angry with her, the angels will curse her until morning." Just so his wife would sleep with him. This hadith is there in Bukhari and Muslim and labeled Sahih but whose to say this or something like this didn't actually happen?
It is very sad and such a shame when people feel that they can strongarm others who question the authenticity of hadith based on sound reasoning by instantly throwing the Quran under the bus in an attempt to save the hadith by making absurd claims that by finding issues or criticizing the hadith you are questioning and criticizing the Quran as well.
To say the Quran was transmitted the same way and by the same people as the hadith is akin to saying that each verse of the Quran was with only one person because 95% or more of the hadith are Khabar Wahid i.e only single narrator and then some 200 years later someone came along gathered the Quran by tracking down 6,236 different people who all had been passed down the verses through several generations flawlessly and compiled into the Mushaf.
Now tell me was the Quran transmitted exactly like the hadith and by the same people?
