The word "Shaheed"

[Mughal1]

Thank you very much babadeena, that was very kind of you to draw our attention to this matter. This is what discussions are all about to see if we are still right about our understanding of the quran.

The translations have many faults in them because people tried to interpret the quran according to their preconceived notions or they did not understand the subject matter.

The purpose of the quran is to be used as a book of guidance not that we guide the quran. Unfortunately many muslims have failed to understand this very point and instead bent the quran to whatever makes no sense. This is why nonmuslims are up in arms against islam just because of human created misunderstandings against proper islam. If we could show to the world what islam really is I think we will get many friends and supporters even from amongst nonmuslims. I say that because not all nonmuslims are unjust and unfair and cruel.

However, it is difficult task because we are having difficulty even when we talk amongst ourselves. People without thinking jump at you from all sides without even giving you any chance to explain.

We need to try our best to change this in our societies globally. I wonder when we are going to take the message to other nations properly that we have not got it ourselves yet? This is so obvious the way we fight with each other over anything and everything and hesitate not even from killing each other. What lesson is there for nonmuslims to embrace islam if islam has not managed to change our mentality and behaviour? What a mess we have led ourselves in to!

Worse yet is that I wonder if we ever want to get out of it?

Anyway thanks, keep up the good work and all the best.

[FONT=&amp][/FONT]

 

[Truth Seeker]

Meaning of Word Rab & Hadith

What could I say but irony of fate when I meet people like Mr. Mughal1 or Baba Deena who claimed to be “REFORMER” but in fact they are not!

After challenging to quote any ayah about “Shaheed” and when I quoted ayah with translation of many scholars like Syed Madoodi, Mufti Taqi Usmani, Tahir ul Qadri, Ahmad Raza Khan etc, Baba Deena changed his position to 99.9% times word used “Shaheed”is for witness so he will go for majority.

While Mr. Mughal even declared those translations to be WRONG, this was quite surprising for me.

May I dare to ask Mr. Mughal how come he knows meaning of “Shaheed” is witness?

My dear the ones who told us meaning of “Shaheed” as witness have also mentioned the same word for ones killed in way of Allah.

So if you don’t agree at later description then why do you agree at former description?

Now coming back to Baba G: Now your stance is that you will go for majority

I am sure you have recited Surah Fatiha, let’s take first Ayah of that Surah.

This is beauty of Quran that word used “Rab” in first Ayah is used again in first Ayah of Last Surah (Surah Naas) and many times at other places.

We all know “Rab” points to Allah but could you translate following Ayah for me and help me to understand “Rab” used in particular Ayahs point to whom?

Surah Yusuf Ayah No. 41&42:

[FONT=Quranic_Font]یٰصَاحِبَیِ السِّجْنِ اَمَّاۤ اَحَدُکُمَا فَیَسْقِیۡ رَبَّہٗ خَمْرًا ۚ وَ اَمَّا الۡاٰخَرُ فَیُصْلَبُ فَتَاۡکُلُ الطَّیۡرُ مِنۡ رَّاۡسِہٖ ؕ قُضِیَ الۡاَمْرُ الَّذِیۡ فِیۡہِ تَسْتَفْتِیٰنِ ﴿ؕ۴۱﴾ وَقَالَ لِلَّذِیۡ ظَنَّ اَنَّہٗ نَاجٍ مِّنْہُمَا اذْکُرْنِیۡ عِنۡدَ رَبِّکَ ۫ [/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font]فَاَنۡسٰہُ الشَّیۡطٰنُ ذِکْرَ رَبِّہٖ فَلَبِثَ فِی السِّجْنِ بِضْعَ سِنِیۡنَ ﴿ؕ٪۴۲﴾[/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font]Do remember your stance is to go with majority and in majority Rab points to Allah so here it should point to Allah too.[/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font]I hope you got my point but if you are still in doubt and you want to take ONE MEANING of word at all places (As you are taking meaning of “SHAHEED” as witness at all places) then please translate following Ayahs:[/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font]Surah Fatiha, Ayah 7:[/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font]غَیۡرِ الۡمَغۡضُوۡبِ عَلَیۡہِمْ وَلَا الضَّآ لِّیۡنَ[/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font] [/FONT][FONT=Quranic_Font]Surah Dhuha, Ayah 7:[/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font]وَ وَجَدَکَ ضَآلًّا فَہَدٰی[/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font]So would you take same meaning of word "Dhala" at both places and please do mention accost of later ayah![/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font]As you don’t want to call them “Shaheed” as Quran has not given them such title then please explain why don’t you call Quran as BOOK OF HADITH AS ALLAH HIMSELF HAS CALLED QURAN AS HADITH![/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
Surah Zumar Ayah No. 23

[FONT=Quranic_Font]اَللہُ نَزَّلَ اَحْسَنَ الْحَدِیۡثِ کِتٰبًا مُّتَشَابِہًا مَّثَانِیَ[/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
Surah Tur, Ayah No. 34

[FONT=Quranic_Font] فَلْیَاۡتُوۡا بِحَدِیۡثٍ مِّثْلِہٖۤ اِنۡ کَانُوۡا صٰدِقِیۡنَ[/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
Surah Najm Ayah No. 59

[FONT=Quranic_Font]اَفَمِنْ ہٰذَا الْحَدِیۡثِ تَعْجَبُوۡنَ[/FONT]

Surah Qalam, Ayah No. 44
[FONT=Quranic_Font][/FONT]
[FONT=Quranic_Font] فَذَرْنِیۡ وَ مَنۡ یُّکَذِّبُ بِہٰذَا الْحَدِیۡثِ ؕ سَنَسْتَدْرِجُہُمۡ مِّنْ حَیۡثُ لَا یَعْلَمُوۡنَ[/FONT]

I have asked you so many other questions in my previous posts but...................?

I hope at least this time you would muster up your GREAT KNOWLEDGE & PASSION and will reply to me.

As always very very very passionately waiting for your reply!

It’s just a start Baba G......Sitaro Say Agay Jahan Aur Bhi Hain, Abhi Ishq Kay Imtihan Aur Bhi Hain!

[FONT=Quranic_Font] [/FONT]

 

[babadeena]

@Truth Seeker@@@@
The word Rab in arabic stands for "LORD", whereas the Arabic word Allah has to be and has
been translated as "Allah". That is the difference which you are not understanding.
Surah Yusuf, from where you have picked up the verses, clearly indicate why in these
verses the word "rab" as "Lord" has been used. check it please yourself, I am not going
to teach you here.

I call Quran as a book of Hadith what is wrong in that. Allah himself called this
book as book of Hadith. Now do not please come with the logic that Hadiths
are only those which attributed to our Prophet(PBUH).

Just concentrate on Quran more vigorously and impartially, it will automatically come to you.

 

[babadeena]

The purpose of the quran is to be used as a book of guidance not that we guide the quran. Unfortunately many muslims have failed to understand this very point and instead bent the quran to whatever makes no sense

Could not have said better than this. Thanks. Our irony is that People wish to see quran as per
their pre-made concept/maslak etc.

 

[Mughal1]

Meaning of Word Rab & Hadith

What could I say but irony of fate when I meet people like Mr. Mughal1 or Baba Deena who claimed to be “REFORMER” but in fact they are not!

After challenging to quote any ayah about “Shaheed” and when I quoted ayah with translation of many scholars like Syed Madoodi, Mufti Taqi Usmani, Tahir ul Qadri, Ahmad Raza Khan etc, Baba Deena changed his position to 99.9% times word used “Shaheed”is for witness so he will go for majority.

While Mr. Mughal even declared those translations to be WRONG, this was quite surprising for me.

May I dare to ask Mr. Mughal how come he knows meaning of “Shaheed” is witness?

My dear the ones who told us meaning of “Shaheed” as witness have also mentioned the same word for ones killed in way of Allah.

So if you don’t agree at later description then why do you agree at former description?

Thank you brother Truth Seeker for raising the point. Please note that I do not disagree with meaning of the word but its context in the verses.

The primary meaning of word shaheed is witness. Like WA KAFA BILLAHI SHAHEEDA = Enough is allah for a wintess. Secondary meaning is martyr in dictionaries but it is not in quranic context.

Here is the context then you can decide things for yourself. Allah says we sent you as a witness= INNA ARSALNAAKA SHAAHIDA. This means the prophets are sent by allah to be witness before their people and likewise they will be witnesses about their people before allah on the day of judgment. SIDDEEQEEN are those who attest to the truth the prophets declare before them ie they believe the prophets and confirm his prophethood. However, SHOHADAA are such people who not only confirm the prophethood of the prophet themselbes but also go forth before other people and declare the message before them. Or to put it in another way, they testify to the truth of the prophet themselves and also stand witness before people about the message they received from the prophet as people declare words in azaan.

To me this sense of such verses makes better sense and I am not denying the special place of peole who die in armed jihad while defending what islam asks them to defend. I already said that they can be called by an approprioate oir fitting name and I have no objection them being called shaheed. However, I do not think it is right to interpret verses with word shaheed as martyr. That is all. I am not going to give fatwa against anyone but reserve the right to differ with you or anyone else on basis what is acceptable to my mind unless one can convicne me otherwise.

Forgive me if I did not express my view clearly before. All I am saying is that all the translations you have quoted have not managed to convince me to what you are saying. All you need to give me is one verse which gives more weight to meaning of the word you are suggesting in context. Just because a word has another meaning is not enough.

regards and all the best.

 

[samar]

Plz provide an ayat which explains who are shaheed or which says that those who die in Allah's way are not shaheed.

 

[Mughal1]

Plz provide an ayat which explains who are shaheed or which says that those who die in Allah's way are not shaheed.

Dear samar, there is no verse in the quran that tells us not to call peopole who are killed in the name of god shaheed. However that is not disputed and cannot be disputed because that too is meaning of the word in dictionaries and this word has been used always for people who died for allah. The point here is, does this word shaheed mean people who died for allah in battles or people who stood wintess for allah? This surely depends on context of the situation and circumstances. The witness sense of the word is very obvious but the other sense is not. This by no means mean that we cannot call believers who are killed in the battle for allah shaheed, by all means do. This is why I ask babadeena the question I asked ie what was his purpose by discussing this word and he said just to clarify that this word does not mean as it is translated and I agree with him. Beyond that I am saying that word shaheed does mean martyr as well, as far as dictionary is concerned and as people have been using this word in general. We did not discuss beyond that point and if you want to discuss it you are welcome to share your thoughts on the matter further. This is just a brotherly discussin to learn of each other. regards and all the best.

 

[babadeena]

Dear samar, there is no verse in the quran that tells us not to call peopole who are killed in the name of god shaheed.

At the same criteria, it can be said that "there is no verse in Quran, where people who killed in the way of Allah, HAVE BEEN
CALLED SHAHEED"

Calling those people shaheed is due to translation of this word at two places by the Translators, or it is supported by
Hadiths. So this concept have been developed by "people" themselves. If we go through whole of Quran, and Inshallah,
I shall bring bringing each and every verse wherein "people killed in the way of Allah" and the "word Shaheed/Shuhahda"
have been used. After going through that, I am of the view that people who have been actually called "Shaheed" in Quran
(which is witness) are very and very special people.

 

[Truth Seeker]

@Baba G, My Love and His Cronies:

First thing first about “Rab”, I asked at majority of times in Quran it points to “ALLAH”, so why do you hesitate pointing “Rab” to “Allah” in those Ayahs!

You claim majority of times “Shaheed” points to “Witness” so you hesitate while pointing “Shaheed” to “Ones killed in way of Allah” in Surah Nisa, Ayah No. 69.

When a word “Rab” that in majority point to Allah but in Surah Yousuf, Ayah No. 41 & 42 it does not point to Allah then WHY “SHAHEED” THAT IN MAJORITY POINTS TO “WITNESS” BUT IN SURAH NISA CAN’T POINT TO “ONES KILLED IN WAY OF ALLAH”!

Don’t you think it’s unfair!

Secondly why do you take ONE MEANING of word at all places! That’s why I asked to translate word “Dhala” in Surah Fatiha and Surah Dhuha and tell me if you differ in meaning of same word at different places!

So if you differ while translating word “DHAHLA” at different places then WHY YOU DON’T WANT TO DIFFER WHILE TRANSLATING WORD SHAHEED AT DIFFERENT PLACES!

Thirdly, I appreciate that you don’t mind calling QURAN AS BOOK OF HADITHS, now look at word “HADITH” used as some other places in Quran.

Word Hadith is used to Sayings other than Rasool Allahpbuh

Surah Nisa, Ayah No. 42

[FONT=Quranic_Font]یَوْمَئِذٍ یَّوَدُّ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا وَعَصَوُا الرَّسُوۡلَ لَوْ تُسَوّٰی بِہِمُ الۡاَرْضُ ؕ وَلَا یَکْتُمُوۡنَ اللہَ حَدِیۡثًا[/FONT]

Surah Nisa, Ayah No. 140

[FONT=Quranic_Font]وَقَدْ نَزَّلَ عَلَیۡکُمْ فِی الْکِتٰبِ اَنْ اِذَا سَمِعْتُمْ اٰیٰتِ اللہِ یُکۡفَرُ بِہَا وَیُسْتَہۡزَاُ بِہَا فَلَا تَقْعُدُوۡا مَعَہُمْ حَتّٰی یَخُوضُوۡا فِیۡ حَدِیۡثٍ غَیۡرِہٖۤ[/FONT]

Surah An’am, Ayah No. 68

[FONT=Quranic_Font]وَ اِذَا رَاَیۡتَ الَّذِیۡنَ یَخُوۡضُوۡنَ فِیۡۤ اٰیٰتِنَا فَاَعْرِضْ عَنْہُمْ حَتّٰی یَخُوۡضُوۡا فِیۡ حَدِیۡثٍ غَیۡرِہٖ[/FONT]

Word Hadith is used by Allah while describing incident of Prophets before Rasool Allahpbuh

Surah Dhariyat, Ayah No. 24

[FONT=Quranic_Font]ہَلْ اَتٰىکَ حَدِیۡثُ ضَیۡفِ اِبْرٰہِیۡمَ الْمُکْرَمِیۡنَ[/FONT]

Surah Naziyat, Ayah No. 15

[FONT=Quranic_Font]ہَلْ اَتٰىکَ حَدِیۡثُ مُوۡسٰی[/FONT]

Surah Buruj, Ayah No. 17 & 18

[FONT=Quranic_Font]ہَلْ اَتٰىکَ حَدِیۡثُ الْجُنُوۡدِ ﴿ۙ۱۷﴾ فِرْعَوْنَ وَ ثَمُوۡدَ[/FONT]

Now coming back to your request//Please don't come with the logic that Hadiths are only those which attributed to our Prophet(PBUH).// I urge instead if you could quote Ayahs from Quran which establishes the fact that “HADITHS COULD BE ATTRIBUTED TO RASOOL ALLAHpbuh”

Then we shall judge if majority of times word HADITH is used for sayings of Rasool Allahpbuh or not!

[FONT=Quranic_Font]So, if in majority word HADITH is not used for sayings of Rasool Allahpbuh then would you still title them Hadith!!!!!!![/FONT]

[FONT=Quranic_Font]I told you my dear it’s just a start![/FONT]

[FONT=Quranic_Font]Ibtada e Ishq Hai Roota Hai Kiya, Agay Agay Deikhiye Hota Hai Kiya![/FONT]

 

[samar]

At the same criteria, it can be said that "there is no verse in Quran, where people who killed in the way of Allah, HAVE BEEN
CALLED SHAHEED"

Who are these people called "shuhadaa" plz give any example of a shaheed from quran ??

If we don't know who are shaheed and how one can we become shaheed according to the teachings of the Holy prophet s.a.w, then why this word is used in Quran for some people???

After going through that, I am of the view that people who have been actually called "Shaheed" in Quran
(which is witness) are very and very special people.

He/She who gives his life in the way of Allah isn't He/She special????
Yes they are very very special bcs they give shahadat leaving this world.

I think it should be clear to you know if you now the meaning of shahdat(which is witness) and conditions that should be satisfied for shahdat.

اشْهَدُ انْ لّآ اِلهَ اِلَّا اللّهُ وَحْدَه لَا شَرِيْكَ لَه، وَ اَشْهَدُ اَنَّ مُحَمَّدً اعَبْدُه وَرَسُولُه
I bear witness that none is worthy of worship but Allah, the One alone, without partner, and I bear witness that Muhammad (Sallalah Ho Alihe Walihe Wassalam) is His servant and Messenger.

Hint[there is a big difference in saying i bear witness and actually being a witness]

Shaheeds are granted the caliber where they actually become a witness.That makes them very special.

 

[babadeena]

Who are these people called "shuhadaa" plz give any example of a shaheed from quran ??

.........They say: Our Lord, we believe. Inscribe us as among the witnesses."(5:83)
Our Lord! We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him whom Thou hast sent. Enroll us among those who witness (to the truth).(3:3)
Example:
Prophets, pious peoples:
And the earth shineth with the light of her Lord, and the Book is set up, and the Prophets and the witnesses are brought, and it is judged between them with truth, and they are not wronged.(24:39)
Further you can yourself check from Quran, solid hints I have given you.

 

[babadeena]

I have checked from whole of Quran about:
a) those people who have been killed in the way of Allah; and
b) the word "Shaheed" or "Shuhada".

I can for surety now say that nowhere in Quran it is written a
title, in the verses, regarding those people who have been killed in His way.

The confusion/problem is with the translation of the word "Shuhada" in
two-three places; like the verse: 3:140, Mr. Yusuf Ali has translated it in
both ways:
إِنْ يَمْسَسْكُمْ قَرْحٌ فَقَدْ مَسَّ الْقَوْمَ قَرْحٌ مِثْلُهُ ۚ وَتِلْكَ الْأَيَّامُ نُدَاوِلُهَا بَيْنَ النَّاسِ وَلِيَعْلَمَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَيَتَّخِذَ مِنْكُمْ شُهَدَاءَ ۗ وَاللَّهُ لَا يُحِبُّ الظَّالِمِينَ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{140**[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 3:140] If a wound hath touched you, be sure a similar wound hath touched the others. Such days (of varying fortunes) We give to men and men by turns: that Allah may know those that believe, and that He may take to Himself from your ranks Martyr-witnesses (to Truth). And Allah loveth not those that do wrong.[/SIZE]
Then again Same YusufAli in verse (4:69) has translated it categorically as "witnesses"
وَمَنْ يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ ۚ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقًا [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{69**[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:69] All who obey Allah and the messenger are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship![/SIZE]
Again in verse: 57:19, this word has been defined who are "Shuhada", what the conditions are to be fulfilled to become "Shuhada"
وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الصِّدِّيقُونَ ۖ وَالشُّهَدَاءُ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ لَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ وَنُورُهُمْ ۖ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَكَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا أُولَٰئِكَ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{19**[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 57:19] And those who believe in Allah and His messengers- they are the Sincere (lovers of Truth), and the witnesses (who testify), in the eyes of their Lord: They shall have their Reward and their Light. But those who reject Allah and deny Our Signs,- they are the Companions of Hell-Fire.[/SIZE]
So become "Shuhada" the conditions are to "believe in Allah and His Messengers" and in their Opposite it is stated that "who reject Allah and
deny Our Ayats". So those people will be Shuhada who will believe in Allah and his Book what is written in it. Now it is another
question to define what is meant to be "Believing in Allah and His Ayats", not everyone will get them. So Verse No.4:69 has been
itself defined by Quran in itself in verse No.57:19. Therefore, it has become clear that this word "Shuhada" stands for different
type of people, not for those who killed in the Way of Allah (Of Course they have their own status and Reward, no question about that).

 

[babadeena]

Today, again in whole of country, Political leaders, TV Anchors, on Radio 90 percent people are attributing this
word "Shaheed" to the "Murdered BB". I wonder what about all those who are killed in Karachi when
BB escaped that blasts. and plus all those who were also murdered in bomb blasts or by bullets
in Liaqat Bagh Rawalpindi on 27th November. Every ones were human, why special treatment to BB,
because she was a leader but again without those who were ordinary what kind of leader she
should have been. The worst type of exploitation of this sacred word has become a fashion in
our society.

 

[samar]

Today, again in whole of country, Political leaders, TV Anchors, on Radio 90 percent people are attributing this
word "Shaheed" to the "Murdered BB". I wonder what about all those who are killed in Karachi when
BB escaped that blasts. and plus all those who were also murdered in bomb blasts or by bullets
in Liaqat Bagh Rawalpindi on 27th November. Every ones were human, why special treatment to BB,
because she was a leader but again without those who were ordinary what kind of leader she
should have been. The worst type of exploitation of this sacred word has become a fashion in
our society.

Well aik shakhs daka dalney ja raha ho rastey me katal ho jaey usko shaheed kehna tu lafz ki tauheen he.

 

[rana14801]

as i have some knowledge about shahadat is that there is grading in shahadat. A TRUE MUSLIM killed in fighting for the sake of Allah's dee e islam against enemy of Allah is top graded shaheed. plz note my words A TRUE MUSLIM who is complete in every aspect to be a Muslim. any such person if dies on bed because of wounds or accident etc is still falls into the catagory of shaheeds but of lower grade.condition remains the same TRUE AND COMPLETE MUSLIM as per the teacings of holy Quraan and Ahadees.it is only Allah who knows that the killed or died person was a true Muslim or not. now a days no one else can decide about any one's declaration of being Shaheed. plz leave it to Allah The Almighty to decide. we surely cannot say her shaheed or otherwise.