Kya Namaz me sirf Farz Parh Lena Kafi Hai ? Sunnat Mokadda Lazmi ?
- Thread starter Amal
- Start date
Who said sunnat isnt essential ? Even Engineer quoted multiple Hadiths. Issue is there are different opinions present in but ulema only preached one side of it
Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Fard prayers are the ones that are mandatory, if you keep to these, you will pass the exam and graduate no doubt about that.
But if you perform the nawafil then you will pass with good grades and depending on how much extra work you put it you might even graduate with honours.
Its that simple.
Islam is a purpose based way of life, nothing less nothing more. Find out what a way of life is about or has to be about and see if your concept of islam qualifies as a way of life or not.
If it does then carry on and if it does not then find out the proper way of life and you are on the way to success in this world as well as the next.
The real problem is, human population in the world is around 7 billion. In that population most of the human beings are utterly ignorant. Some because they are children others because they are old folks and yet others because they are disabled or incapacitated naturally or by accidents etc etc. Not only that we have almost half of human population which is female therefore 2nd class citizen just like many men folk who are held back by those from among them who are more advantaged than themselves.
Literacy is minimal and education is still a privilege for the few.
All these like reasons are more than sufficient to explain why most people in the world are unable to investigate issues appropriately.
Originally human beings were like animals who did not know how to speak or read or write etc etc.
However with time and after many generations people came up with human languages and ability to read and write by learning things through interaction with things and each other.
This is the time when God started sending his messages to people through people in order to help them live in this world properly. However by then human beings became settled in their ways so it was not easy for messengers of God to help them unlearn their wrong ways of life and to learn the right way of life. Regardless the struggle continued and will go on and humanity will eventually learn to live in this world properly as God intended for it, so that it could fulfil the purpose for which God created it.
This is the proper context of the quranic text for those who have gained the ability to understand the quranic text properly. For a detailed explanation of things about the quran, deen of islam and pakistan see HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE and HERE.
If anyone thinks one knows the proper context of the quranic text properly, Please be kind enough to explain the proper way of reaching your conclusion properly. If one has no idea as to how to investigate an issue properly to reach a proper conclusion then one's conclusion cannot be right or relied upon no matter how knowledgeable or learned one claims to be.
Let me try and explain this further. Suppose I wish to build a house, can I do so properly without learning how to do it? This shows how important it is for me to know the way do what I wish to do.
To explain things another way, let us suppose there is a dead body there and no one there to tell us what happened to the person that he met his death, in this case do we need to know the way as to how to investigate this death? Yes we do need to know the way otherwise we cannot say anything about it with reasonable certainty.
Earlier human beings did not know how to do so but they have been trying to come up with a way to do so, just like reading and writing skills. Over many generations people have managed to refine their skills in many fields and many things still are waiting to be discovered or learned.
Anyway the death issue above can be first looked at as various possibilities which could cause death eg it could be taken as an accidental death, a suicide, a murder, a natural death etc etc.
Next we start eliminating these possibilities one by one by examining the circumstantial evidences and coming up with explanations that work for this purpose.
Once we have gone through this process thoroughly then we can reach our conclusion whatever it may be in light of available evidences and their explanations.
From all this one should be able to see clearly that in each case we needed a way to deal with the facing situation. If we wanted to eliminate a murder possibility, we had to know the way to do so. Likewise if we had to eliminate suicide possibility, we needed a way to do so and so on an so forth.
Exactly the same ideas apply when we have to investigate authenticity of the quranic text or its words and their meanings etc etc.
The idea that this or that was not done in the past or by past people is not and cannot be a proper criterion or a rule for accepting or rejecting an idea, be the idea or concept old or new.
Religions are original human thoughts or assumptions about God and the way they used idea of God. They assumed a deity and they put forth to it their lists of demands. In order to get what they wanted or wished for so they took upon themselves some ritualistic practices to please God due to their baseless beliefs.
Those baseless beliefs and practices still continue even today and they will remain so till mankind realise their make beliefs and useless rituals cannot make any difference to their daily lives or living. This is why almost all their prayers remain unanswered because they are not advised by God for them but they are taken up by people all by themselves.
On the other hand God puts forth his own list of demands for mankind to meet. Telling them what they need to believe and do so that the purpose for which God has created them becomes fulfilled.
This is why unless people meet list of demands by God for them, they can believe and do anything they like but things will continue in this universe the way they are set up by God to continue.
This should explain to people why it is wrong to be religious for them and why it is right for them to be a people based upon deen advised by God.
This is why people have been going back to religions after passing away of their messengers from God. This is why world is still full of religious people but not of people who live by deen of islam as sent by God. It is because to learn mazhab does not need much effort but learning deen sent by God does.
There are a lot more people in the word who are still ignorant but very few who are actually highly learned. All this will keep on changing till almost all people become highly learned and ignorance totally vanishes with light of knowledge.
If it does then carry on and if it does not then find out the proper way of life and you are on the way to success in this world as well as the next.
The real problem is, human population in the world is around 7 billion. In that population most of the human beings are utterly ignorant. Some because they are children others because they are old folks and yet others because they are disabled or incapacitated naturally or by accidents etc etc. Not only that we have almost half of human population which is female therefore 2nd class citizen just like many men folk who are held back by those from among them who are more advantaged than themselves.
Literacy is minimal and education is still a privilege for the few.
All these like reasons are more than sufficient to explain why most people in the world are unable to investigate issues appropriately.
Originally human beings were like animals who did not know how to speak or read or write etc etc.
However with time and after many generations people came up with human languages and ability to read and write by learning things through interaction with things and each other.
This is the time when God started sending his messages to people through people in order to help them live in this world properly. However by then human beings became settled in their ways so it was not easy for messengers of God to help them unlearn their wrong ways of life and to learn the right way of life. Regardless the struggle continued and will go on and humanity will eventually learn to live in this world properly as God intended for it, so that it could fulfil the purpose for which God created it.
This is the proper context of the quranic text for those who have gained the ability to understand the quranic text properly. For a detailed explanation of things about the quran, deen of islam and pakistan see HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE and HERE.
If anyone thinks one knows the proper context of the quranic text properly, Please be kind enough to explain the proper way of reaching your conclusion properly. If one has no idea as to how to investigate an issue properly to reach a proper conclusion then one's conclusion cannot be right or relied upon no matter how knowledgeable or learned one claims to be.
Let me try and explain this further. Suppose I wish to build a house, can I do so properly without learning how to do it? This shows how important it is for me to know the way do what I wish to do.
To explain things another way, let us suppose there is a dead body there and no one there to tell us what happened to the person that he met his death, in this case do we need to know the way as to how to investigate this death? Yes we do need to know the way otherwise we cannot say anything about it with reasonable certainty.
Earlier human beings did not know how to do so but they have been trying to come up with a way to do so, just like reading and writing skills. Over many generations people have managed to refine their skills in many fields and many things still are waiting to be discovered or learned.
Anyway the death issue above can be first looked at as various possibilities which could cause death eg it could be taken as an accidental death, a suicide, a murder, a natural death etc etc.
Next we start eliminating these possibilities one by one by examining the circumstantial evidences and coming up with explanations that work for this purpose.
Once we have gone through this process thoroughly then we can reach our conclusion whatever it may be in light of available evidences and their explanations.
From all this one should be able to see clearly that in each case we needed a way to deal with the facing situation. If we wanted to eliminate a murder possibility, we had to know the way to do so. Likewise if we had to eliminate suicide possibility, we needed a way to do so and so on an so forth.
Exactly the same ideas apply when we have to investigate authenticity of the quranic text or its words and their meanings etc etc.
The idea that this or that was not done in the past or by past people is not and cannot be a proper criterion or a rule for accepting or rejecting an idea, be the idea or concept old or new.
Religions are original human thoughts or assumptions about God and the way they used idea of God. They assumed a deity and they put forth to it their lists of demands. In order to get what they wanted or wished for so they took upon themselves some ritualistic practices to please God due to their baseless beliefs.
Those baseless beliefs and practices still continue even today and they will remain so till mankind realise their make beliefs and useless rituals cannot make any difference to their daily lives or living. This is why almost all their prayers remain unanswered because they are not advised by God for them but they are taken up by people all by themselves.
On the other hand God puts forth his own list of demands for mankind to meet. Telling them what they need to believe and do so that the purpose for which God has created them becomes fulfilled.
This is why unless people meet list of demands by God for them, they can believe and do anything they like but things will continue in this universe the way they are set up by God to continue.
This should explain to people why it is wrong to be religious for them and why it is right for them to be a people based upon deen advised by God.
This is why people have been going back to religions after passing away of their messengers from God. This is why world is still full of religious people but not of people who live by deen of islam as sent by God. It is because to learn mazhab does not need much effort but learning deen sent by God does.
There are a lot more people in the word who are still ignorant but very few who are actually highly learned. All this will keep on changing till almost all people become highly learned and ignorance totally vanishes with light of knowledge.
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Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Read few comments above as I said I'm not here to stop anyone to follow or not to follow what I post here. This is totally so far my understanding of the Quran.
My theory is that Muslims in general are lazy to research and reflect. That is why we are way behind of the rest of the world in every sphere of field. We are hell bound to follow and defend the wrong interpretation of the Quranic terminology and on top of that the hadeeth has destroyed the Deen of Allah and made it into a mazhab like any other religion.
The book I mentioned to X is an eye opener and I can guarantee that he hasn't read it yet.
Beside, you need to come out of your pre conceived mind set to understand this book.
As per the namaz, I have never stopped anyone on this forum or anywhere else as peoples emotions and feelings are attached with it but, problem I see is that majority of them have memorized the namaz like a parrot without understanding a word of it.
They are mixing Quranic verses and non Quranic text. Praying 5 times a day doesn't create a bond with Allah in fact you are going against Allah's command. What have Muslims achieved by praying 5 times a day? Nothing.
As per the sunnah, only Sunnah in the Quran is sunnattAllah.
Keep doing what you feel is right and I will keep posting what I feel is right.
My theory is that Muslims in general are lazy to research and reflect. That is why we are way behind of the rest of the world in every sphere of field. We are hell bound to follow and defend the wrong interpretation of the Quranic terminology and on top of that the hadeeth has destroyed the Deen of Allah and made it into a mazhab like any other religion.
The book I mentioned to X is an eye opener and I can guarantee that he hasn't read it yet.
Beside, you need to come out of your pre conceived mind set to understand this book.
As per the namaz, I have never stopped anyone on this forum or anywhere else as peoples emotions and feelings are attached with it but, problem I see is that majority of them have memorized the namaz like a parrot without understanding a word of it.
They are mixing Quranic verses and non Quranic text. Praying 5 times a day doesn't create a bond with Allah in fact you are going against Allah's command. What have Muslims achieved by praying 5 times a day? Nothing.
As per the sunnah, only Sunnah in the Quran is sunnattAllah.
Keep doing what you feel is right and I will keep posting what I feel is right.
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Amal
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
ager tum sachy ho tu koi daleel laio jasy Ali ney sahee hadees pash ki hai , lakin tum koi dalleel Ali ky rad main nahi lasakty kunky Ali sahee keh rahy han !
Dream Seller
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Thread starter believes that Sunnah isn’t essential as Quran is a complete book.
Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Bhai Saab when I told you I've read it means I have. He has also made the same bongis in it that Perwez has or maybe directly lifted it from Perwez.
By his own admission in his book he was an agnostic and only when he when he twisted and stretched the meaning of the Quran to his own liking he became a Muslim again.
And it's pretty lame to use my argument of lazy muslims against me.
You yourself are stubborn, previously I have from the Quran and Quran only showed you prayers, fasting, Hajj has been obligatory but yet you refuse to believe it even though you have no logical reply other than "according to my understanding"
So practice what you preach
Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Yaar itna lamba chourda layani bhashan pardne ka kiss ke pass time hai. Short and to the point baat karo
Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Yaar nirri posting see to baat nahi banti na. Koi argument be samne lao
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
No point of arguing as it won't take you guys anywhere.
As per the namaz and haj, i have put forward my understanding of it in other posts.
In fact, no one bothered to give a logical counter-argument just writing/posting based on what they have been taught without any substance in it.
As the majority have no clue what Islam is so they just counter-attack it with hadeeth and sunnah which they themselves have not read it either. "LAKEER KAY FAQEER"
As i have mentioned above, the mullah's Islam has put the shackles on our brains so we can not think beyond their counterfeit Islam.
The reason for the downfall of Muslims is that they can not think for themselves to logically and rationally question the mullah about their brand of Islam. Maybe if someone tries to address it with mullah he or she would be labeled as KAAFIR. Or, they will issue a religious edict that you have become a MURTID so you deserve to be killed.
For the last time, if the namaz is in the Quran please find me the details of it and i will continue to perform it.
As per the namaz and haj, i have put forward my understanding of it in other posts.
In fact, no one bothered to give a logical counter-argument just writing/posting based on what they have been taught without any substance in it.
As the majority have no clue what Islam is so they just counter-attack it with hadeeth and sunnah which they themselves have not read it either. "LAKEER KAY FAQEER"
As i have mentioned above, the mullah's Islam has put the shackles on our brains so we can not think beyond their counterfeit Islam.
The reason for the downfall of Muslims is that they can not think for themselves to logically and rationally question the mullah about their brand of Islam. Maybe if someone tries to address it with mullah he or she would be labeled as KAAFIR. Or, they will issue a religious edict that you have become a MURTID so you deserve to be killed.
For the last time, if the namaz is in the Quran please find me the details of it and i will continue to perform it.
Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Yaar aab aisa bhi nahi karo ke safaid jhoot bol do, I gave you references from the Quran multiple times, time and time again, mentioning these things and you only countered with "according to my understanding" and have not even bothered to discuss how you reached that "understanding"
Asay to nahi chal ta na kaam meray bhai.
You pray or don't pray doesn't make an iota of a difference to anyone . You refuse to believe in the Sunnah as mentioned in the Quran and yet to say you only believe in the Quran. You are full of contradictions and don't know yourself what to believe and what not believe other than what some outdated websites and misprinted books on google books tell you
OK Let me counter question you. The Quran says many times Ati ullah wa ati ur rasool. i,e Obey Allah and obey the prophet. Obey the prophet in what? The Quran is book of Allah, Allah is talking to his creation in his book, so what are we to obey of the Prophet. Because there are no commands of the Prophet in the Quran. So what are we to obey of the prophet?
What is Allah is telling us to obey of the Prophet? What command, what action, so on and so forth.
In your version of Islam you have relegated the Prophet to just a simple deliverer of message, he received revelation and he passed it on, thats it, nothing more and nothing less.
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
COPIED***
Abandoning the ScriptureIt is not due to a lack of prayers, or the length of the beard, or the dress code of women that God has abandoned the Muslims. It has been because we have abandoned God’s word and have taken other paths and other gods besides Him without even realizing it. God tells us that we are supposed to resort to His Book for judgment, yet we see Muslims time and time again resorting to their imams, or scholars, or leadership, or the Arab League, or the United Nations, or any other body except the one they were commanded to adhere to.
God says that the Scripture is ‘complete’ and ‘fully detailed.
’“’Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?’ Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.” (Qur’an 6:114)
“And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.” (Qur’an 6:115)
“A.L.R, a Scripture whose verses have been made governing, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Expert.” (Qur’an 11:1)
“And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Scripture as a clarification for all things, and a guide and mercy and good tidings to those who have surrendered.” (Qur’an 16:89)
Abandoning the ScriptureIt is not due to a lack of prayers, or the length of the beard, or the dress code of women that God has abandoned the Muslims. It has been because we have abandoned God’s word and have taken other paths and other gods besides Him without even realizing it. God tells us that we are supposed to resort to His Book for judgment, yet we see Muslims time and time again resorting to their imams, or scholars, or leadership, or the Arab League, or the United Nations, or any other body except the one they were commanded to adhere to.
God says that the Scripture is ‘complete’ and ‘fully detailed.
’“’Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?’ Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.” (Qur’an 6:114)
“And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.” (Qur’an 6:115)
“A.L.R, a Scripture whose verses have been made governing, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Expert.” (Qur’an 11:1)
“And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Scripture as a clarification for all things, and a guide and mercy and good tidings to those who have surrendered.” (Qur’an 16:89)
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Yet, many Muslims still have doubts even after seeing all the evidence. They never dare question the Scripture openly, but they always find an excuse for why the Scripture cannot be followed on its own. Perhaps, it is time for these people to realize just how dangerous their denial may be:
“These are God ’s revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which narration after God and His revelations do they believe? Woe to every sinful fabricator. He hears God ’s revelations being recited to him, then he persists arrogantly, as if he never heard them. Give him news of a painful retribution. And if he learns anything from Our revelations, he makes fun of them. For these will be a humiliating retribution. Waiting for them is Hell. And that which they earned will not help them, nor those whom they have taken as allies besides God, and for them is a terrible retribution. This is a guidance. And those who reject the revelations of their Lord, for them is an affliction of a painful retribution.” (Qur’an 45:6-11)
“These are God ’s revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which narration after God and His revelations do they believe? Woe to every sinful fabricator. He hears God ’s revelations being recited to him, then he persists arrogantly, as if he never heard them. Give him news of a painful retribution. And if he learns anything from Our revelations, he makes fun of them. For these will be a humiliating retribution. Waiting for them is Hell. And that which they earned will not help them, nor those whom they have taken as allies besides God, and for them is a terrible retribution. This is a guidance. And those who reject the revelations of their Lord, for them is an affliction of a painful retribution.” (Qur’an 45:6-11)
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
“And if they are told: ‘Follow what God has sent down,’ they say: ‘No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!’ What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided? And the example of those who disbelieve is like one who repeats what he has heard of calls and shouts; deaf, dumb, and blind, they do not understand.” (Qur’an 2:170-171)
The true system of Islam, as revealed by God and His Messenger, has been neglected and ignored for many centuries by the Muslim masses while they blindly follow their scholars and leaders and their distorted and un-authorized teachings. Muslims have been losing continuously because they have abandoned the word of God and replaced it with other laws and teachings which, in turn, has caused God to abandon them and leave them to their folly. This life is not just about fun and games. It is about fulfilling our part of the pledge with God and proving that we can serve Him Alone.“And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!” (Qur’an 39:45)
The true system of Islam, as revealed by God and His Messenger, has been neglected and ignored for many centuries by the Muslim masses while they blindly follow their scholars and leaders and their distorted and un-authorized teachings. Muslims have been losing continuously because they have abandoned the word of God and replaced it with other laws and teachings which, in turn, has caused God to abandon them and leave them to their folly. This life is not just about fun and games. It is about fulfilling our part of the pledge with God and proving that we can serve Him Alone.“And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!” (Qur’an 39:45)
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Even the choice of the word ‘Hadith’ is an act of defiance against God as He has said in His Book:
“These are God ’s revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which narration (Hadith) after God and His revela-tions do they believe? Woe to every sinful fabricator. He hears God ’s revelations being recited to him, then he persists arro-gantly, as if he never heard them. Give him news of a painful retribution.” (Qur’an 45:6-8)
“These are God ’s revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which narration (Hadith) after God and His revela-tions do they believe? Woe to every sinful fabricator. He hears God ’s revelations being recited to him, then he persists arro-gantly, as if he never heard them. Give him news of a painful retribution.” (Qur’an 45:6-8)
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Consequences of HadthGod has created human beings with the natural tendency to be inquisitive. Anyone who has children will know that no matter how many times you tell them “No,” they will still try to touch a hot pan or play with the dirt to understand why they should not do so. This is a God-given mechanism that our Lord has bestowed on the human species to let us expand our knowledge and only accept what we understand and know. When Muslims were ruling and living by the Scripture, there was no problem as far as this natural human curiosity was concerned since the Scripture had an answer to every question. Muslims, at that time, wit-nessed an intellectual growth unparalleled in the history of Arabia or even the world. The tendency to question and inquire led Muslim children to mature in an atmosphere where no kind of knowledge was off limits and nothing was taboo. Their questioning simply developed an unlimited appetite for information which was fed by discoveries and advancements in just about every field. Then, a few hundred years after the Scripture had fueled this intellectual revolution in Muslim minds, something began to change. The widespread introduction of Hadith and its popularity with the masses began to slowly create problems in the education of Muslims. Ha-dith could not compare to the Scripture due to its inferior language and its reliance on hearsay and conjecture. We can only assume that the establishment of Hadith as a source of Islamic law was only achieved many centuries after its initial gathering by having it forced on the Muslim masses and without tolerating scrutiny or questioning of it. Muslim school children today are taught from a very early age not to question or overanalyze their sources of religion, as they might incur the wrath of God and walk the path to Hell in doing so.
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
“The Messenger’s duty is only to deliver the message: Allah knows what you reveal and what you conceal.” (Qur’an 5:99)
"And the Messenger said, 'My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur'an' " (Qur'an 25:30)
"And the Messenger said, 'My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur'an' " (Qur'an 25:30)
People must learn how to read the quran properly for its proper understanding otherwise they will remain confused. For example, the quran claims to be consistent and free of discrepancies yet anyone can see it contains many verses which contradict each other, so how can the quran be accepted free of contradictions? The answer is simple, look for verses in the quran which remove these contradictions. For example, the quran tells its followers to kill the kufaar as well as not to kill them. This is clearly a contradiction within the quran but all one has to do is to look for reasons in the quran itself as to why kufaar are to be killed or why not. Once we come to know those reasons the apparent contradiction is no longer there.
Likewise according to the quran records made by people are vitally important for humanity as well as misleading. So all we humans need to do is to scrutinise them for their truth. Once we do that successfully then man made records also become highly useful for humanity. This is why the quran repeatedly tells people to carefully observe the universe and things in it. The main undeniable fact is, all our knowledge comes from interactions with things and recording of our results. If our interaction was not vitally important with things and its record keeping then how could humanity develop or progress?
This is why one cannot accept or reject human works or records 100% but whatever we accept or reject it has to be based upon a solid criterion or yardstick. Where is this solid criterion going to come from? From our own thinking and testing ie it involves process of trial and error whereby we accept what works and reject what does not work. This is why I keep telling people use your brains and senses appropriately and you will get there otherwise there is no end to confusion.
The quran is nothing more than a book full of vitally important information from God for mankind for telling them about the purpose for which all is created by God including human beings and the way for them to live to fulfil that very purpose. Mullahs have failed to develop their minds properly so they have no idea how to make proper use of the quran and the rest of sources of information. So people should not replace message of God with human works nor disregard human works but give them both their proper place in their minds if they wish to come out of confusion.
If we look at it, historians have been developing criterion for judging history records and likewise scientists have been working on criterion for judging scientific data etc etc. All we need to do is to work on the quran for decoding its data and once we have it, we will have made discovery of our lifetime. It is because only and only the quran can provide us with a solid base to judge all kinds of information properly and that way it can bring us out of our confusion.
Likewise according to the quran records made by people are vitally important for humanity as well as misleading. So all we humans need to do is to scrutinise them for their truth. Once we do that successfully then man made records also become highly useful for humanity. This is why the quran repeatedly tells people to carefully observe the universe and things in it. The main undeniable fact is, all our knowledge comes from interactions with things and recording of our results. If our interaction was not vitally important with things and its record keeping then how could humanity develop or progress?
This is why one cannot accept or reject human works or records 100% but whatever we accept or reject it has to be based upon a solid criterion or yardstick. Where is this solid criterion going to come from? From our own thinking and testing ie it involves process of trial and error whereby we accept what works and reject what does not work. This is why I keep telling people use your brains and senses appropriately and you will get there otherwise there is no end to confusion.
The quran is nothing more than a book full of vitally important information from God for mankind for telling them about the purpose for which all is created by God including human beings and the way for them to live to fulfil that very purpose. Mullahs have failed to develop their minds properly so they have no idea how to make proper use of the quran and the rest of sources of information. So people should not replace message of God with human works nor disregard human works but give them both their proper place in their minds if they wish to come out of confusion.
If we look at it, historians have been developing criterion for judging history records and likewise scientists have been working on criterion for judging scientific data etc etc. All we need to do is to work on the quran for decoding its data and once we have it, we will have made discovery of our lifetime. It is because only and only the quran can provide us with a solid base to judge all kinds of information properly and that way it can bring us out of our confusion.
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Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
This and all the rest that you have copied and pasted is not even the argument between me and you. I have never argued with you on your stance that the Quran is complete and alone is sufficient. Then I don't know why you keep on copy pasting things again and again which are not relevant to our discussion?
Seems like I am talking to an automated response machine which has no mind of its own and cannot go off script and only respond in the way it was programmed to do so.
