EMAIL SENT to AYAZ AMIR IN RESPONSE TO HIS RECENT COLUMN

[crankthskunk]

Mr. Amir

I read your recent column in The Daily Jang, gosh you never disappoint people. The degree of your self delusions is such that you have started to believe in your own dreams and concoctions. It is obvious that there is no love lost between you and Pakistani Military. It could be a blow back from your days in the Army. Why did you leave the army, shed some light on it, it may help the readers to understand the sources of your obnoxious behaviour and writings. But let’s leave it there and deal with your piece.

1- Zardari is sick or not, but the rumours are fanned by his own Party. Why don’t you blame the liars who had been issuing contradictory statements in last few days?

2- You concluded, dishonestly I must add that Mansoor Eijaz has written the memo. From where did you get this fact? According to all the information we have, Mansoor said he was dictated the contents of the memo by Haqqani. He even says that after he drafted it; the draft was okay by Haqqani after changes on the instructions and agreement of his Boss, i.e. Zardari. We have not heard any opposing version yet. Let the vagabonds produce their versions and let the court look in to the claims of both Mansoor and the pillagers elites of Pakistan. But the memo itself is a reality you better deal with that reality.

Why these simple facts are difficult for you to understand. We know you got a defunct brain, but come on you are not that stupid, are you? It may be that you received a heavy envelope according to the decades old high standards of “Pakistani Journalism”, you are certainly part of the corrupt Pakistani media, but hey come on don’t make it too obvious.

3- We all know Zardari is an illiterate but he is a smart crook too. Agree, he cannot write the memo not even in million years, but that’s why he has employed people like Haqqani or Segal to do his biddings.

4- Haqqani does not have the authority and he could not have offered the concessions contained in the memo. Only Zardari could from the echelons of PPP. We also know Gilani has indicated that he is ready to offer his neck for his Master’s sake. But then again, who is Gilani? A puppet cannot fool anyone, Gilani has absolutely no authority. His interests in the Government are his expensive suits, shopping for his wife and luxuries for his sons. It doesn’t surprise us either that these facts just escape your attention. But then what purpose those “envelopes” serve, right!

5- You are extremely ignorant as well as dishonest, in any other country if it was in the situation Pakistan had been for years now, these acts of treachery would have created such a hue and cry that the perpetrators sent to the gallows pronto. Pakistan is a vexatious country in the world it has so many snitchers like you, who would write or do anything for their rapaciousness.

6- Your assertions that Mullen didn’t give any credence to the memo are wrong too. The way western governments work, I have absolutely no doubt, not only he paid credence to the memo but he passed it on. Based on my conclusion, I am certain in my mind the memo went right up to President Obama. Don’t you think if we are talking about Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal, who would be taking the decisions? Surely not Mullen. Why your feeble mind cannot grasp the chain the memo went through? On Americans side there is a retired General, amongst most distinguished and their Chief Mullen (and according to me most definitely President Obama too), in between there is one not so desirable Mansoor Eijaz, and on Pakistani side their Ambassador Haqqani and President Zardari. And if the subject matter is Pakistani Army and Pakistanis Government’s grievances against its own Army. Treating the army like a hurdle in their way to fully co-operate with Americans and implement their full agenda in Pakistan and in broader sense in South Asia. Then why wouldn’t Americans pay credence to such document?

For proofs Mullen paid credence to the memo, we have his reactions. From the position of a friend of Pakistan, he started to show so much enmity against Pakistan and its establishment and even levelled very grave accusations against Pakistani Military and one of its’ arm ISI.

7- You in your deluded mind not thinking that Mansoor Eijaz can create this memo, a lie on his own? Don’t tell me you are so stupid. Whatever Mansoor Eijaz sentiments or his ill wishes are against Pakistan, but as an American citizen he cannot dare to lie to his Government on such sensitive issues. He has constantly reiterated that his loyalties are with the USA.

8- Another excuse Haqqani and PPP leadership have used is why Haqqani would use Mansoor Eijaz when he had direct access to the US Government, right up to the White House? Answer is simple, if you are performing treachery against your own country, would you be foolish enough to use official channels so tomorrow you can be caught easily? Why no Pakistani Journalist counters such non-sense by PPP?

9- As expected from a dimwit and unscrupulous person like you, you only included NS and BB as two options to rule Pakistan. No surprise you only picked two most perjurious politicians Pakistan produced; they are no more than common pilferers. Deprived of any chimera and practicality. You can add Zardari in that illustrious list of yours. As expected you forgot the name of Imran Khan. But is it a surprise? You must be having nightmares from his popularity. And no I am not his supporter. I don’t have a vote in Pakistan. I challenge you for a written debate on NS and BB/Zardari’s corruption, or if you wish a verbal exchange, I would show you the ropes. How many years experience you say you have in Journalism? I am sure you have plethora of friends and access to lot more information than a Pakistani Origin person like me. But I am confident being bent you are not used to looking at things in their right perceptive. Anyone, who snips from his/her nation doesn’t deserve to rule that nation. Ever heard such principles?

10- I can throw another challenge to you, I will prove it to you without shadow of any doubt many in Pakistan had advance knowledge of 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] May incident. I dare you to take my challenges. Let Pakistanis decided how much they had been lied to by misdemeanant like you in the press.

11- I know I am using strong language but time to get tough is now if misfeasors like you and your political crackerjacks not stopped, there would be no Pakistan left. Yes, things are that bad thanks to the likes of you. What have you given to Pakistan, apart from this bullshit?

12- I am glad you mentioned Wajid Shamsul Hassan; I had rendezvous’ with this corrupt man in London few years back. My one and only interaction with any political party from Pakistan. What this man actually represents or symbolises? One who stayed back in the UK after his first stint as Pakistan envoy to the UK? I am sure you know how and what basis he managed to stay in the UK. My discussion with him was on the corruption of BB, she was still alive at the time of this discussion. Mr. Hassan was unable to answer my questions, but to no-one surprise he and other PPP buffoons present in the gathering adopted the tactics of intimidations and threats which the regularly used in Pakistan. I was so enraged that I wanted to call the Met Police and lodge an official complaint against the threats, but was requested not to by my colleagues who accompanied me to the gathering.

Pakistani nation has seen the shameful face of this corrupt person when he was shepherding important documents in Switzerland, smoking guns, proofs for the corruption of his political master Zardari. This is exactly your problem, for years you have backed and glorified thieves and low life like Zardari, Shams-ul-Hassan, Haqqani, Nawaz Sharif etc.etc.

How can we expect objectivity and honesty from you? Your eyes and judgement are blurred from your personal greed and from your participation in the destruction and loot of Pakistan.

Get a life looser.

 

[PMLN97]

ISI is site par bhi Chaye hoi hai

 

[adnan_younus]

crap letter... again fantasy of a day dreamer hainv g ahot cup of tea in his couch..

 

[crankthskunk]

And you must be sipping on your brandy in the tradition of Mushy "the traitor". And what shall we call those who follow a "Traitor"? Traitors.

 

[barca]

oo bhai mere itni lambi email kum shum nai karda ?

 

[mrk123]

That certainly is a surefire way to get someones serious attention - by rapid fire name calling ;-)
By the way what is it that got you so riled up in that article? the gist of the article is that we need to do some introspection - whats wrong with this line of thinking?

At the cost of enduring the inept and corrupt government of zardari et al. I am willing to let them complete its full term as there will be no martyrs - go around the country and you will not hear any coherent or sustained support for zardari and his gang - but, on the other hand if the establishment embarks on an adventurous path then we will have to endure another "shaheed" and "victim" politics - there is only one way to get rid of these buffoons by free and fair elections and letting the political cycle take its course - this we have to learn. By the way this is the official party line of your beloved PTI too. This is all Ayaz Amir is saying....let the buffoon shoot himself on the foot and not let him become a victim and give him an life line for eternal presence in our midst.

Mr. Amir

I read your recent column in The Daily Jang, gosh you never disappoint people. The degree of your self delusions is such that you have started to believe in your own dreams and concoctions. It is obvious that there is no love lost between you and Pakistani Military. It could be a blow back from your days in the Army. Why did you leave the army, shed some light on it, it may help the readers to understand the sources of your obnoxious behaviour and writings. But let’s leave it there and deal with your piece.

1- Zardari is sick or not, but the rumours are fanned by his own Party. Why don’t you blame the liars who had been issuing contradictory statements in last few days?

2- You concluded, dishonestly I must add that Mansoor Eijaz has written the memo. From where did you get this fact? According to all the information we have, Mansoor said he was dictated the contents of the memo by Haqqani. He even says that after he drafted it; the draft was okay by Haqqani after changes on the instructions and agreement of his Boss, i.e. Zardari. We have not heard any opposing version yet. Let the vagabonds produce their versions and let the court look in to the claims of both Mansoor and the pillagers elites of Pakistan. But the memo itself is a reality you better deal with that reality.

Why these simple facts are difficult for you to understand. We know you got a defunct brain, but come on you are not that stupid, are you? It may be that you received a heavy envelope according to the decades old high standards of “Pakistani Journalism”, you are certainly part of the corrupt Pakistani media, but hey come on don’t make it too obvious.

3- We all know Zardari is an illiterate but he is a smart crook too. Agree, he cannot write the memo not even in million years, but that’s why he has employed people like Haqqani or Segal to do his biddings.

4- Haqqani does not have the authority and he could not have offered the concessions contained in the memo. Only Zardari could from the echelons of PPP. We also know Gilani has indicated that he is ready to offer his neck for his Master’s sake. But then again, who is Gilani? A puppet cannot fool anyone, Gilani has absolutely no authority. His interests in the Government are his expensive suits, shopping for his wife and luxuries for his sons. It doesn’t surprise us either that these facts just escape your attention. But then what purpose those “envelopes” serve, right!

5- You are extremely ignorant as well as dishonest, in any other country if it was in the situation Pakistan had been for years now, these acts of treachery would have created such a hue and cry that the perpetrators sent to the gallows pronto. Pakistan is a vexatious country in the world it has so many snitchers like you, who would write or do anything for their rapaciousness.

6- Your assertions that Mullen didn’t give any credence to the memo are wrong too. The way western governments work, I have absolutely no doubt, not only he paid credence to the memo but he passed it on. Based on my conclusion, I am certain in my mind the memo went right up to President Obama. Don’t you think if we are talking about Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal, who would be taking the decisions? Surely not Mullen. Why your feeble mind cannot grasp the chain the memo went through? On Americans side there is a retired General, amongst most distinguished and their Chief Mullen (and according to me most definitely President Obama too), in between there is one not so desirable Mansoor Eijaz, and on Pakistani side their Ambassador Haqqani and President Zardari. And if the subject matter is Pakistani Army and Pakistanis Government’s grievances against its own Army. Treating the army like a hurdle in their way to fully co-operate with Americans and implement their full agenda in Pakistan and in broader sense in South Asia. Then why wouldn’t Americans pay credence to such document?

For proofs Mullen paid credence to the memo, we have his reactions. From the position of a friend of Pakistan, he started to show so much enmity against Pakistan and its establishment and even levelled very grave accusations against Pakistani Military and one of its’ arm ISI.

7- You in your deluded mind not thinking that Mansoor Eijaz can create this memo, a lie on his own? Don’t tell me you are so stupid. Whatever Mansoor Eijaz sentiments or his ill wishes are against Pakistan, but as an American citizen he cannot dare to lie to his Government on such sensitive issues. He has constantly reiterated that his loyalties are with the USA.

8- Another excuse Haqqani and PPP leadership have used is why Haqqani would use Mansoor Eijaz when he had direct access to the US Government, right up to the White House? Answer is simple, if you are performing treachery against your own country, would you be foolish enough to use official channels so tomorrow you can be caught easily? Why no Pakistani Journalist counters such non-sense by PPP?

9- As expected from a dimwit and unscrupulous person like you, you only included NS and BB as two options to rule Pakistan. No surprise you only picked two most perjurious politicians Pakistan produced; they are no more than common pilferers. Deprived of any chimera and practicality. You can add Zardari in that illustrious list of yours. As expected you forgot the name of Imran Khan. But is it a surprise? You must be having nightmares from his popularity. And no I am not his supporter. I don’t have a vote in Pakistan. I challenge you for a written debate on NS and BB/Zardari’s corruption, or if you wish a verbal exchange, I would show you the ropes. How many years experience you say you have in Journalism? I am sure you have plethora of friends and access to lot more information than a Pakistani Origin person like me. But I am confident being bent you are not used to looking at things in their right perceptive. Anyone, who snips from his/her nation doesn’t deserve to rule that nation. Ever heard such principles?

10- I can throw another challenge to you, I will prove it to you without shadow of any doubt many in Pakistan had advance knowledge of 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] May incident. I dare you to take my challenges. Let Pakistanis decided how much they had been lied to by misdemeanant like you in the press.

11- I know I am using strong language but time to get tough is now if misfeasors like you and your political crackerjacks not stopped, there would be no Pakistan left. Yes, things are that bad thanks to the likes of you. What have you given to Pakistan, apart from this bullshit?

12- I am glad you mentioned Wajid Shamsul Hassan; I had rendezvous’ with this corrupt man in London few years back. My one and only interaction with any political party from Pakistan. What this man actually represents or symbolises? One who stayed back in the UK after his first stint as Pakistan envoy to the UK? I am sure you know how and what basis he managed to stay in the UK. My discussion with him was on the corruption of BB, she was still alive at the time of this discussion. Mr. Hassan was unable to answer my questions, but to no-one surprise he and other PPP buffoons present in the gathering adopted the tactics of intimidations and threats which the regularly used in Pakistan. I was so enraged that I wanted to call the Met Police and lodge an official complaint against the threats, but was requested not to by my colleagues who accompanied me to the gathering.

Pakistani nation has seen the shameful face of this corrupt person when he was shepherding important documents in Switzerland, smoking guns, proofs for the corruption of his political master Zardari. This is exactly your problem, for years you have backed and glorified thieves and low life like Zardari, Shams-ul-Hassan, Haqqani, Nawaz Sharif etc.etc.

How can we expect objectivity and honesty from you? Your eyes and judgement are blurred from your personal greed and from your participation in the destruction and loot of Pakistan.

Get a life looser.

 

[crankthskunk]

That certainly is a surefire way to get someones serious attention - by rapid fire name calling ;-)
By the way what is it that got you so riled up in that article? the gist of the article is that we need to do some introspection - whats wrong with this line of thinking?

At the cost of enduring the inept and corrupt government of zardari et al. I am willing to let them complete its full term as there will be no martyrs - go around the country and you will not hear any coherent or sustained support for zardari and his gang - but, on the other hand if the establishment embarks on an adventurous path then we will have to endure another "shaheed" and "victim" politics - there is only one way to get rid of these buffoons by free and fair elections and letting the political cycle take its course - this we have to learn. By the way this is the official party line of your beloved PTI too. This is all Ayaz Amir is saying....let the buffoon shoot himself on the foot and not let him become a victim and give him an life line for eternal presence in our midst.

Yeah sure. I guess you live in the west. Now tell me one thing honestly, in the west if corruption of a Government member no matter what his position is, becomes public, could he survive?
Then why you accept this crap, that in Pakistan we should let them complete their 5 years term. We have been doing this, to politicians and generals, see where it take us?
No tolerance for the corrupt and their supporters, this is my Moto. Where I live every citizen would agree with me.

 

[mrk123]

Brother, i understand your feelings and I have the same feelings as you and as patriotic as you and my heart aches for my country same as yours.

Now, having said that - there are two ways to go about this. You must already know the Einstein quote where he says that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.....the usual modus operandi for this situation which has been used in our country is: there is corruption, or at least allegations of corruption and abuse of power, then the powers to be remove the government , there is an attempt to smooth the way of a favorite and supposedly clean alternative to ease into power.
How many times we have tried this - did it work? its insane to think that this time it will give us different results - when the outcome is unknown we have to be very very cautious before playing with the destiny of 180 million people - doesnt it make sense?

Now lets take a deep breath and exhale and lets analyze with cool and calm heads. I believe thats what Ayaz Amir was pointing to - that we are a trigger happy nation who pulls the trigger first and then think about the consequences. We never think about what will happen next - as a nation its not part of our psyche.

What we have seen is that numerous governments were dismissed because of the same charges - but instead of pushing us down this abyss what has it given us? Aren't we stuck with the same faces and system - in fact I would argue that it has gotten worse. What we need is to let the process take its due course.

I believe from what I have seen on here that you are a supporter of PTI - I may be wrong so pardon me if I am. I think PTI's official line is the same that they dont want any unconstitutional steps at this stage as this would short circuit all the hard work they are putting in. The idea should be to let the process take its due course....if we need to get emotional about anything it has to be free and fair elections, establishment of system and institutions which would be free of undue political interference, installing strong and meaningful accountability. These are the steps which would ensure that there is not limitless corruption without any consequences and the system could really take care of the corruption in the past which is almost impossible to prove in a court of law.

Repeated adventurous and unconstitutional steps would further deteriorate the situation and give a lifeline to the corrupt ....

Yeah sure. I guess you live in the west. Now tell me one thing honestly, in the west if corruption of a Government member no matter what his position is, becomes public, could he survive?
Then why you accept this crap, that in Pakistan we should let them complete their 5 years term. We have been doing this, to politicians and generals, see where it take us?
No tolerance for the corrupt and their supporters, this is my Moto. Where I live every citizen would agree with me.

 

[crankthskunk]

Brother, i understand your feelings and I have the same feelings as you and as patriotic as you and my heart aches for my country same as yours.

Now, having said that - there are two ways to go about this. You must already know the Einstein quote where he says that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.....the usual modus operandi for this situation which has been used in our country is: there is corruption, or at least allegations of corruption and abuse of power, then the powers to be remove the government , there is an attempt to smooth the way of a favorite and supposedly clean alternative to ease into power.
How many times we have tried this - did it work? its insane to think that this time it will give us different results - when the outcome is unknown we have to be very very cautious before playing with the destiny of 180 million people - doesnt it make sense?

Now lets take a deep breath and exhale and lets analyze with cool and calm heads. I believe thats what Ayaz Amir was pointing to - that we are a trigger happy nation who pulls the trigger first and then think about the consequences. We never think about what will happen next - as a nation its not part of our psyche.

What we have seen is that numerous governments were dismissed because of the same charges - but instead of pushing us down this abyss what has it given us? Aren't we stuck with the same faces and system - in fact I would argue that it has gotten worse. What we need is to let the process take its due course.

I believe from what I have seen on here that you are a supporter of PTI - I may be wrong so pardon me if I am. I think PTI's official line is the same that they dont want any unconstitutional steps at this stage as this would short circuit all the hard work they are putting in. The idea should be to let the process take its due course....if we need to get emotional about anything it has to be free and fair elections, establishment of system and institutions which would be free of undue political interference, installing strong and meaningful accountability. These are the steps which would ensure that there is not limitless corruption without any consequences and the system could really take care of the corruption in the past which is almost impossible to prove in a court of law.

Repeated adventurous and unconstitutional steps would further deteriorate the situation and give a lifeline to the corrupt ....

Well, your thinking that I am a supporter of PTI is absolutely wrong. I am not, I am a supporter of Pakistan.
For me PTI or anyone else who ever should be able to govern Pakistan effectively without resorting to corruption I would support that party or entity.

Whatever happened in the past, happened because of the same reason tolerance of the corrupt. Unless you uproot the evil from its roots, it always comes back. I am not in favour of military take overs, but it doesn't mean that a corrupt Government should continue irrespective of what it had been doing.

Look at the recent history of Italy for example, there had been so many elections to get rid of corrupt governments. It keeps happening but it never stopped the Italians not to fire the Government.

This is the whole purpose of Democracy, if you feel that the Government is not doing its job for what it was elected for, or is corrupt you can get rid of it ASAP.

I happened to disagree with Amir, we had never been emotional nation, we pretend we are but we never do the needful. Instead we accept the shady, unscrupulous, liars, cheats in the Government. Look how we had been governed for last 60 years? If we were as hasty as you claiming or over reacting we wouldn't have tolerated Dictators like Musharaf, Zia-ul-Haq and Ayub. On the other hand we wouldn't have accepted the corrupt leaders like BB, NS and Zardari and to lesser degree also ZA Bhutto. I am certain if Pakistanis were emotional they could have got rid of the dictators too. No dictator can stand against 170 million people if they are determined to get rid of him.

Nope, we had been too,way too tolerant. Look at the last 4 years, this Government had full freedom, nobody was in their way, the Army is silent, Zardari had bought of most of the political parties by giving them the share of the loot. And even PMLN had been more than happy to help PPP complete their innings, because they are waiting for their innings of loot and plunder. That's what exactly Amir wants. His chance to loot and plunder Pakistan with his PMLN chums.

I am afraid I don't buy this crap that the corruption of Pakistani politicians is difficult to prove. They all can be caught easily from their life styles, none of them either own the assets or allegedly had incomes to support their life styles. This is another proof of the tolerance showed by Pakistani nation.

Nope, I don't buy these arguments at all. Especially not from corrupt people like Amir. What he wants is Pakistan to become a country where he would be permitted to drink alcohol openly. Where nobody should use the name of Islam. Where there are no rules and regulations, no law against the corrupt. Things he wants can not be accepted in the nations he pretend he wants to follow.

Even in the west where Alcohol is freely available its public use is becoming less and less desirable. Not only in driving, but people are routinely arrested for being drunk and disorderly. And for corruption there is zero tolerance. So why should we accept crap from this idiot?

 

[mrk123]

Well, your thinking that I am a supporter of PTI is absolutely wrong. I am not, I am a supporter of Pakistan.
For me PTI or anyone else who ever should be able to govern Pakistan effectively without resorting to corruption I would support that party or entity.

I apologized in advance if my post if my observation of you being a PTI supporter is wrong.

Whatever happened in the past, happened because of the same reason tolerance of the corrupt. Unless you uproot the evil from its roots, it always comes back. I am not in favour of military take overs, but it doesn't mean that a corrupt Government should continue irrespective of what it had been doing.

So whats your solution? Uprooting evil and nice phrases do sound very good on paper but you can't live on mere slogans dear.
Lets hear your framework of what needs to happen - and please don't indulge in lofty and ideal sloganeering - give us concrete and practical step considering all the ground realities as to how to proceed in this situation. The key to solving any problem is the diagnose it properly and before you diagnose it properly you have to listen very carefully as to what the other person is saying. Its good to believe that you know the absolute truth and you have all the solutions.

Look at the recent history of Italy for example, there had been so many elections to get rid of corrupt governments. It keeps happening but it never stopped the Italians not to fire the Government.

This is the whole purpose of Democracy, if you feel that the Government is not doing its job for what it was elected for, or is corrupt you can get rid of it ASAP.

Again, whats the process to get rid of it ASAP?
In Italy over the last few years there haven't been as many changes as they used to. And, the ones before that were the result of animosity and clear ideological divisions between conservatives, leftists, communists and had nothing to do with corruption. In fact most of those governments in the 70s and 80s were so short-lived that probably didn't have a chance to commit corruption even if they wanted to.

I happened to disagree with Amir, we had never been emotional nation, we pretend we are but we never do the needful. Instead we accept the shady, unscrupulous, liars, cheats in the Government. Look how we had been governed for last 60 years? If we were as hasty as you claiming or over reacting we wouldn't have tolerated Dictators like Musharaf, Zia-ul-Haq and Ayub. On the other hand we wouldn't have accepted the corrupt leaders like BB, NS and Zardari and to lesser degree also ZA Bhutto. I am certain if Pakistanis were emotional they could have got rid of the dictators too. No dictator can stand against 170 million people if they are determined to get rid of him.

Thats your opinion that we are not a emotional and I would like to disagree with it and lets leave it at that.
I agree with you that there should be zero tolerance against ANY form of wrongdoing. Now we have to look at the ground reality - over the last few decades as a nation we have come to accept all forms of wrongdoings as the norm. This is the reason that we tolerate military dictators without much resistance. Pakistanis are emotional and thats the reason we have not seen much in terms of a coherent reaction to all kinds of wrongdoings and blatant corruption and ineptitude which has led to unprecedented suffering. We are emotional since we buy into all kinds of crap coming from all kinds of sources and we get carried away with it while losing the sight of the bigger goal. Its easier said than done when you say that 180 million people can get rid of someone if they wanted to - how many people do you think want zardari to leave? a majority - do you think that a million people could be in front of the presidency in islamabad? NEVER!

Nope, we had been too,way too tolerant. Look at the last 4 years, this Government had full freedom, nobody was in their way, the Army is silent, Zardari had bought of most of the political parties by giving them the share of the loot. And even PMLN had been more than happy to help PPP complete their innings, because they are waiting for their innings of loot and plunder. That's what exactly Amir wants. His chance to loot and plunder Pakistan with his PMLN chums.

Again, you are stating the obvious and giving us superficial and vague ways to solve the issue at hand. I think its not the PMLN giving zardari a chance its the military which is letting zardari complete his term - what i am saying is that if a change needs to happen it has to happen from withing the system and there should NOT be an extra constitutional move to remove this government - it will hurt us in the long term.
I am not sure where all this hatred for Amir is coming from - i think that he substantively criticizes PML N more than PPP goons.

I am afraid I don't buy this crap that the corruption of Pakistani politicians is difficult to prove. They all can be caught easily from their life styles, none of them either own the assets or allegedly had incomes to support their life styles. This is another proof of the tolerance showed by Pakistani nation.

Nope, I don't buy these arguments at all. Especially not from corrupt people like Amir. What he wants is Pakistan to become a country where he would be permitted to drink alcohol openly. Where nobody should use the name of Islam. Where there are no rules and regulations, no law against the corrupt. Things he wants can not be accepted in the nations he pretend he wants to follow.

You are missing the point that Ayaz Amir is making - he is not saying that zardari is not corrupt - what he is saying is that if you do it outside of constitutional means than it will hurt more than it will help. I dont personally know Ayaz Amir's lifestyle other than what i have gathered from his writings - I have never read in his articles that he is supporting corruption, or if he said that there should be no rules, laws and regulation against corruption and no one should use the name of islam and alcohol should be sold openly. Really I have never got that from reading his articles - he is definitely a liberal and may not be a zealot muslim but that doesnt mean that he is not a patriot as you are. Its a dangerous path that you are taking where you question people's motive because their ideology doesnt fit your view of the world. As per theory all the minorities of Pakistan since they dont have Islam as their way of life and they may have no restrictions on use of alcohol are not as patriot as you.

Even in the west where Alcohol is freely available its public use is becoming less and less desirable. Not only in driving, but people are routinely arrested for being drunk and disorderly. And for corruption there is zero tolerance. So why should we accept crap from this idiot?

[/QUOTE]

I am not sure how this discussion veered into a discussion on consumption of alcohol.....and we say that we are very methodical and analytical people who never let the emotions get in the way of an objective discussion ;-)

 

[crankthskunk]

Lets hear your framework of what needs to happen - and please don't indulge in lofty and ideal sloganeering - give us concrete and practical step considering all the ground realities as to how to proceed in this situation. The key to solving any problem is the diagnose it properly and before you diagnose it properly you have to listen very carefully as to what the other person is saying. Its good to believe that you know the absolute truth and you have all the solutions.

Ok, we deal it this way, you tell me how we can get rid of this government? Especially after 18[SUP]th[/SUP] amendment? Also explain how a Political Government can pass an amendment giving the control of national politics to party heads, who themselves are not elected democratically in their own parties. Even if they are not in the Parliament themselves. And how they can pass a legislation which can protect the corrupt, no matter what? Once you tell me the legal way possible right at this moment when corruption is running wild and Pakistan is on the verge of financial collapse. I would give you my vision.

Again, whats the process to get rid of it ASAP?
In Italy over the last few years there haven't been as many changes as they used to. And, the ones before that were the result of animosity and clear ideological divisions between conservatives, leftists, communists and had nothing to do with corruption. In fact most of those governments in the 70s and 80s were so short-lived that probably didn't have a chance to commit corruption even if they wanted to.

You are wrong, there had been few governments in Italy failing because of corruption, one is the recent most example but we dont have to worry too much on Italian politics. The point here is the political governments do go well before completing their terms. Something which has became a mantra of PPP and their supporters.

Thats your opinion that we are not a emotional and I would like to disagree with it and lets leave it at that.
I agree with you that there should be zero tolerance against ANY form of wrongdoing. Now we have to look at the ground reality - over the last few decades as a nation we have come to accept all forms of wrongdoings as the norm. This is the reason that we tolerate military dictators without much resistance. Pakistanis are emotional and thats the reason we have not seen much in terms of a coherent reaction to all kinds of wrongdoings and blatant corruption and ineptitude which has led to unprecedented suffering. We are emotional since we buy into all kinds of crap coming from all kinds of sources and we get carried away with it while losing the sight of the bigger goal. Its easier said than done when you say that 180 million people can get rid of someone if they wanted to - how many people do you think want zardari to leave? a majority - do you think that a million people could be in front of the presidency in islamabad? NEVER!

And who develops such apathy in the nation to tolerate wrongdoings? What exactly Amir is asking or you are asking for that matter? We to accept the wrong doings and do nothing in response. Meaning let the chain continue, dont break it, dont rock the boat etc. Thats how the dictators survived.

We had been emotional not the right way or in constructive way, but emotional in the wrong way. For example PPP supporters are emotional to support BB when in reality she was corrupt to the core. Take their supporters example even now they are supporting current corrupt government only because they are their's corrupt. Same way PMLN leaders and supporters, they all know, Sharif family never declared their assets correctly or paid proper income tax but they tell porkies.

Nope we had been far more tolerant and it has to stop now. We have to get emotional in the right way and get rid of all the corrupt from Pakistan irrespective.

Again, you are stating the obvious and giving us superficial and vague ways to solve the issue at hand. I think its not the PMLN giving zardari a chance its the military which is letting zardari complete his term - what i am saying is that if a change needs to happen it has to happen from withing the system and there should NOT be an extra constitutional move to remove this government - it will hurt us in the long term.
I am not sure where all this hatred for Amir is coming from - i think that he substantively criticizes PML N more than PPP goons.

Listen to the PMLN leadership, even now they are not willing to get rid of this government, they are only doing Nora kushti to show to the people they are opposing PPP, because they had been given the title of Friendly opposition. They can get rid of PPP government in a jiffy if they all resign from assemblies. PPP cannot survive it, guarantee. But PMLN would never do it; they will pretend to fool people but wouldnt take practical steps to do it.

Here is the practical and legal means to get rid of corrupt PPP government. Something you are asking. Now tell me why wouldnt PMLN finish PPP off adopting constitutional means?

You are missing the point that Ayaz Amir is making - he is not saying that zardari is not corrupt - what he is saying is that if you do it outside of constitutional means than it will hurt more than it will help. I dont personally know Ayaz Amir's lifestyle other than what i have gathered from his writings - I have never read in his articles that he is supporting corruption, or if he said that there should be no rules, laws and regulation against corruption and no one should use the name of islam and alcohol should be sold openly. Really I have never got that from reading his articles - he is definitely a liberal and may not be a zealot muslim but that doesnt mean that he is not a patriot as you are. Its a dangerous path that you are taking where you question people's motive because their ideology doesnt fit your view of the world. As per theory all the minorities of Pakistan since they dont have Islam as their way of life and they may have no restrictions on use of alcohol are not as patriot as you.

I have given the answer above. Ayaz Amir is a duplicative moron, he knows his own party hold the key to get rid of PPP Government in constitutional manner, but he would neither talk about it nor recommend it.
In other words, according to your own arguments, Ayaz Amir and PMLN is part of the problem. They can get rid of PPP easily by using constitutional means but they wouldnt. In other words they are protector of corruption in Pakistan.

The reason is obvious, they are worried if a caretaker government truly independent to take charge, there would be more chances of Imran winning rather than them. They would probably lose out forever if Imran succeed.

I am zealot or not, you are once again making assumptions about me. I am nothing like that, but I am still a Muslim and proud of it. Why shouldnt I be?

As much as Amir is concerned he has a publicly stated position in this regard, he wants freedom of drinking and whatever non-sense in Pakistan, because he is a drunkard too. So I am not stating my personal views or dangerous thinking. It is him, he lives in Pakistan, where vast majority of Muslims would not accept such practices. It is Amir who is not respecting the wishes of majority of the nationals of Pakistan.

I live in the west and I am not the one who is asking for the prohibition of alcohol in the UK. I accept and respect the wishes of the majority, if they want to drink. I personally dont subscribe to it, so I dont follow the practice.

Every country is different and the laws should be for all the people based on the wishes of the majority of its nationals.

 

[Junaiduthmani]

Beautiful. Well researched and even better written.
A good comment worth attention. After a long time.
Keep it up, whatever is your name.

 

[britishpaki]

Well written response to Ayaz Amir! Although brother perhaps you could've done without the abusive language, I share many of your sentiments regarding these liberal fascists but I think responses need to be written with a bit more humility. It is true however, that when such garbage is written by these secularists expletives do enter our brains but we need to take care that such language is not displayed on public forums.

Jazakallah khair I apologise if I have offended anyone!

 

[Raaz]

Ayaz Mer is pseudo intellectual ....

He thinks he is genous and have special thinking.

Naseem Zahra always invite him as an analyst and her rating is going to earth now.

I wrote to Naseem for her wrong choice a month ago, I hope she will invite some one better next time.

These type of people always confuse the situation with no result or negative result with respect to nation.