Saudi Scholar Exposes The False Hadith Culture That Is Corrupting Islam

[Zoq_Elia]

قُلْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ
آل عمران 3 : 32

آپ فرما دیں کہ ﷲ اور رسول (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) کی اطاعت کرو پھر اگر وہ روگردانی کریں تو اﷲ کافروں کو پسند نہیں کرتا


لَّـقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِىْ رَسُوْلِ اللّـٰهِ اُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللّـٰهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْاٰخِرَ وَذَكَـرَ اللّـٰهَ كَثِيْـرًا ( الاحزاب21)
البتہ تمہارے لیے رسول اللہ میں اچھا نمونہ ہے جو اللہ اور قیامت کی امید رکھتا ہے اور اللہ کو بہت یاد کرتا ہے۔


الا عرا ف 7 : 157،156
وَاكْـتُبْ لَنَا فِىْ هٰذِهِ الـدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً وَّفِى الْاٰخِرَةِ اِنَّا هُدْنَـآ اِلَيْكَ ۚ قَالَ عَذَابِىٓ اُصِيْبُ بِهٖ مَنْ اَشَآءُ ۖ وَرَحْـمَتِىْ وَسِعَتْ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ ۚ فَسَاَكْـتُبُـهَا لِلَّـذِيْنَ يَتَّقُوْنَ وَيُؤْتُوْنَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالَّـذِيْنَ هُـمْ بِاٰيَاتِنَا يُؤْمِنُـوْنَ (156) ↖

اَلَّـذِيْنَ يَتَّبِعُوْنَ الرَّسُوْلَ النَّبِىَّ الْاُمِّىَّ الَّـذِىْ يَجِدُوْنَهٝ مَكْـتُوبًا عِنْدَهُـمْ فِى التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْاِنْجِيْلِۖ يَاْمُرُهُـمْ بِالْمَعْرُوْفِ وَيَنْـهَاهُـمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَـهُـمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْـهِـمُ الْخَبَائِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْـهُـمْ اِصْرَهُـمْ وَالْاَغْلَالَ الَّتِىْ كَانَتْ عَلَيْـهِـمْ ۚ فَالَّـذِيْنَ اٰمَنُـوْا بِهٖ وَعَزَّرُوْهُ وَنَصَرُوْهُ وَاتَّبَعُوا النُّوْرَ الَّـذِىٓ اُنْزِلَ مَعَهٝ ۙ اُولٰٓئِكَ هُـمُ الْمُفْلِحُوْنَ (157) ↖

اور لکھ دے ہمارے لیے اس دنیا میں اور آخرت میں بھلائی کہ ہم نے تیری طرف رجوع کیا، فرمایا میں اپنا عذاب جسے چاہتا ہوں کرتا ہوں، اور میری رحمت سب چیزوں سے وسیع ہے، پس وہ رحمت ان کے لیے لکھوں گا جو ڈرتے ہیں اور جو زکوٰۃ دیتے ہیں اور جو ہماری آیتوں پر ایمان لاتے ہیں۔
وہ لوگ جو اس رسول کی پیروی کرتے ہیں جو اُمّی نبی ہے جسے اپنے ہاں تورات اور انجیل میں لکھا ہوا پاتے ہیں، وہ ان کو نیکی کا حکم کرتا ہے اور برے کام سے روکتا ہے اور ان کے لیے سب پاک چیزیں حلال کرتا ہے اور ان پر ناپاک چیزیں حرام کرتا ہے اور ان پر سے ان کے بوجھ اور وہ قیدیں اتارتا ہے جو ان پر تھیں، سو جو لوگ اس پر ایمان لائے اور اس کی حمایت کی اور اسے مدد دی اور اس کے نور کے تابع ہوئے جو اس کے ساتھ بھیجا گیا ہے، یہی لوگ نجات پانے والے ہیں۔


قُلْ اِنْ كُنْتُـمْ تُحِبُّوْنَ اللّـٰهَ فَاتَّبِعُوْنِىْ يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللّـٰهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُـوْبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللّـٰهُ غَفُوْرٌ رَّحِـيْـمٌ (31آل عمران)
کہہ دو اگر تم اللہ کی محبت رکھتے ہو تو میری اتباع کرو تاکہ تم سے اللہ محبت کرے اور تمہارے گناہ بخشے، اور اللہ بخشنے والا مہربان ہے


وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْاْ إِلَى مَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَإِلَى الرَّسُولِ رَأَيْتَ الْمُنَافِقِينَ يَصُدُّونَ عَنكَ صُدُودًا
النسا ء 4 : 61

اور جب ان سے کہا جاتا ہے کہ اللہ کے نازل کردہ (قرآن) کی طرف اور رسول ( صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم ) کی طرف آجاؤ تو آپ منافقوں کو دیکھیں گے کہ وہ آپ (کی طرف رجوع کرنے) سے گریزاں رہتے ہیں‘‘



قَاتِلُوا الَّـذِيْنَ لَا يُؤْمِنُـوْنَ بِاللّـٰهِ وَلَا بِالْيَوْمِ الْاٰخِرِ وَلَا يُحَرِّمُوْنَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّـٰهُ وَرَسُوْلُـهٝ وَلَا يَدِيْنُـوْنَ دِيْنَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّـذِيْنَ اُوْتُوا الْكِتَابَ حَتّـٰى يُعْطُوا الْجِزْيَةَ عَنْ يَّدٍ وَّهُـمْ صَاغِرُوْنَ (التوبہ 29)
ان لوگوں سے لڑو جو اللہ پر اور آخرت کے دن پر ایمان نہیں لاتے اور نہ اسے حرام جانتے ہیں جسے اللہ اور اس کے رسول نے حرام کیا ہے اور سچا دین قبول نہیں کرتے ان لوگوں میں سے جو اہل کتاب ہیں یہاں تک کہ عاجز ہو کر اپنے ہاتھ سے جزیہ دیں

وَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَكَ مَالَمْ تَكُنْ تَعْلَمُ وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا”۔(النساء:۱۱۳)
ترجمہ:اوراللہ تعالیٰ نے اُتاری آپ پر کتاب اور حکمت اور آپ کوسکھایا وہ جوآپ نہیں جانتے تھے اور اللہ تعالیٰ کا آپ پربڑا فضل ہے۔


لَقَدْ مَنَّ اللّـٰهُ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِيْنَ اِذْ بَعَثَ فِـيْهِـمْ رَسُوْلًا مِّنْ اَنْفُسِهِـمْ يَتْلُوْا عَلَيْـهِـمْ اٰيَاتِهٖ وَيُزَكِّـيْـهِـمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُـمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَۚ وَاِنْ كَانُـوْا مِنْ قَبْلُ لَفِىْ ضَلَالٍ مُّبِيْنٍ (آل عمران164)
اللہ نے ایمان والوں پر احسان کیا ہے جو ان میں انہیں میں سے رسول بھیجا (وہ) ان پر اس کی آیتیں پڑھتا ہے اور انہیں پاک کرتا ہے اور انہیں کتاب اور حکمت کی تعلیم دیتا ہے، اگرچہ وہ اس سے پہلے صریح گمراہی میں تھے۔

 

[Citizen X]

قُلْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ
آل عمران 3 : 32

آپ فرما دیں کہ ﷲ اور رسول (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) کی اطاعت کرو پھر اگر وہ روگردانی کریں تو اﷲ کافروں کو پسند نہیں کرتا


لَّـقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِىْ رَسُوْلِ اللّـٰهِ اُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللّـٰهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْاٰخِرَ وَذَكَـرَ اللّـٰهَ كَثِيْـرًا ( الاحزاب21)
البتہ تمہارے لیے رسول اللہ میں اچھا نمونہ ہے جو اللہ اور قیامت کی امید رکھتا ہے اور اللہ کو بہت یاد کرتا ہے۔


الا عرا ف 7 : 157،156
وَاكْـتُبْ لَنَا فِىْ هٰذِهِ الـدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً وَّفِى الْاٰخِرَةِ اِنَّا هُدْنَـآ اِلَيْكَ ۚ قَالَ عَذَابِىٓ اُصِيْبُ بِهٖ مَنْ اَشَآءُ ۖ وَرَحْـمَتِىْ وَسِعَتْ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ ۚ فَسَاَكْـتُبُـهَا لِلَّـذِيْنَ يَتَّقُوْنَ وَيُؤْتُوْنَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالَّـذِيْنَ هُـمْ بِاٰيَاتِنَا يُؤْمِنُـوْنَ (156) ↖

اَلَّـذِيْنَ يَتَّبِعُوْنَ الرَّسُوْلَ النَّبِىَّ الْاُمِّىَّ الَّـذِىْ يَجِدُوْنَهٝ مَكْـتُوبًا عِنْدَهُـمْ فِى التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْاِنْجِيْلِۖ يَاْمُرُهُـمْ بِالْمَعْرُوْفِ وَيَنْـهَاهُـمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَـهُـمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْـهِـمُ الْخَبَائِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْـهُـمْ اِصْرَهُـمْ وَالْاَغْلَالَ الَّتِىْ كَانَتْ عَلَيْـهِـمْ ۚ فَالَّـذِيْنَ اٰمَنُـوْا بِهٖ وَعَزَّرُوْهُ وَنَصَرُوْهُ وَاتَّبَعُوا النُّوْرَ الَّـذِىٓ اُنْزِلَ مَعَهٝ ۙ اُولٰٓئِكَ هُـمُ الْمُفْلِحُوْنَ (157) ↖

اور لکھ دے ہمارے لیے اس دنیا میں اور آخرت میں بھلائی کہ ہم نے تیری طرف رجوع کیا، فرمایا میں اپنا عذاب جسے چاہتا ہوں کرتا ہوں، اور میری رحمت سب چیزوں سے وسیع ہے، پس وہ رحمت ان کے لیے لکھوں گا جو ڈرتے ہیں اور جو زکوٰۃ دیتے ہیں اور جو ہماری آیتوں پر ایمان لاتے ہیں۔
وہ لوگ جو اس رسول کی پیروی کرتے ہیں جو اُمّی نبی ہے جسے اپنے ہاں تورات اور انجیل میں لکھا ہوا پاتے ہیں، وہ ان کو نیکی کا حکم کرتا ہے اور برے کام سے روکتا ہے اور ان کے لیے سب پاک چیزیں حلال کرتا ہے اور ان پر ناپاک چیزیں حرام کرتا ہے اور ان پر سے ان کے بوجھ اور وہ قیدیں اتارتا ہے جو ان پر تھیں، سو جو لوگ اس پر ایمان لائے اور اس کی حمایت کی اور اسے مدد دی اور اس کے نور کے تابع ہوئے جو اس کے ساتھ بھیجا گیا ہے، یہی لوگ نجات پانے والے ہیں۔


قُلْ اِنْ كُنْتُـمْ تُحِبُّوْنَ اللّـٰهَ فَاتَّبِعُوْنِىْ يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللّـٰهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُـوْبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللّـٰهُ غَفُوْرٌ رَّحِـيْـمٌ (31آل عمران)
کہہ دو اگر تم اللہ کی محبت رکھتے ہو تو میری اتباع کرو تاکہ تم سے اللہ محبت کرے اور تمہارے گناہ بخشے، اور اللہ بخشنے والا مہربان ہے


وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْاْ إِلَى مَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَإِلَى الرَّسُولِ رَأَيْتَ الْمُنَافِقِينَ يَصُدُّونَ عَنكَ صُدُودًا
النسا ء 4 : 61

اور جب ان سے کہا جاتا ہے کہ اللہ کے نازل کردہ (قرآن) کی طرف اور رسول ( صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم ) کی طرف آجاؤ تو آپ منافقوں کو دیکھیں گے کہ وہ آپ (کی طرف رجوع کرنے) سے گریزاں رہتے ہیں‘‘



قَاتِلُوا الَّـذِيْنَ لَا يُؤْمِنُـوْنَ بِاللّـٰهِ وَلَا بِالْيَوْمِ الْاٰخِرِ وَلَا يُحَرِّمُوْنَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّـٰهُ وَرَسُوْلُـهٝ وَلَا يَدِيْنُـوْنَ دِيْنَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّـذِيْنَ اُوْتُوا الْكِتَابَ حَتّـٰى يُعْطُوا الْجِزْيَةَ عَنْ يَّدٍ وَّهُـمْ صَاغِرُوْنَ (التوبہ 29)
ان لوگوں سے لڑو جو اللہ پر اور آخرت کے دن پر ایمان نہیں لاتے اور نہ اسے حرام جانتے ہیں جسے اللہ اور اس کے رسول نے حرام کیا ہے اور سچا دین قبول نہیں کرتے ان لوگوں میں سے جو اہل کتاب ہیں یہاں تک کہ عاجز ہو کر اپنے ہاتھ سے جزیہ دیں

وَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَكَ مَالَمْ تَكُنْ تَعْلَمُ وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا”۔(النساء:۱۱۳)
ترجمہ:اوراللہ تعالیٰ نے اُتاری آپ پر کتاب اور حکمت اور آپ کوسکھایا وہ جوآپ نہیں جانتے تھے اور اللہ تعالیٰ کا آپ پربڑا فضل ہے۔


لَقَدْ مَنَّ اللّـٰهُ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِيْنَ اِذْ بَعَثَ فِـيْهِـمْ رَسُوْلًا مِّنْ اَنْفُسِهِـمْ يَتْلُوْا عَلَيْـهِـمْ اٰيَاتِهٖ وَيُزَكِّـيْـهِـمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُـمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَۚ وَاِنْ كَانُـوْا مِنْ قَبْلُ لَفِىْ ضَلَالٍ مُّبِيْنٍ (آل عمران164)
اللہ نے ایمان والوں پر احسان کیا ہے جو ان میں انہیں میں سے رسول بھیجا (وہ) ان پر اس کی آیتیں پڑھتا ہے اور انہیں پاک کرتا ہے اور انہیں کتاب اور حکمت کی تعلیم دیتا ہے، اگرچہ وہ اس سے پہلے صریح گمراہی میں تھے۔

Stop being like Shias quoting out of context ayahs trying to prove their false belief about wilayat and imamat. None of the ayahs point to your tradition of following books written by men centuries later. Either you believe in the Quran completely or you don't. When it says it is a complete book brought down in clear and easy to understand language and if there was need for another that Allah would have sent down another book.

So if you believe in this then you don't need to follow anything else, because it is from God and says it's complete and detailed. And if you don't believe in this, then why believe in the Quran at all, because certainly a divine book cannot lie or be contradictory.

 

[Zoq_Elia]

Stop being like Shias quoting out of context ayahs trying to prove their false belief about wilayat and imamat. None of the ayahs point to your tradition of following books written by men centuries later. Either you believe in the Quran completely or you don't. When it says it is a complete book brought down in clear and easy to understand language and if there was need for another that Allah would have sent down another book.

So if you believe in this then you don't need to follow anything else, because it is from God and says it's complete and detailed. And if you don't believe in this, then why believe in the Quran at all, because certainly a divine book cannot lie or be contradictory.

It is just your claim that I have presented out of context Ayaats until you prove that understanding of mine is other than the true understanding of above described ayaats. So 1st reveal true understandings of above Ayaats then claim about out of context Ayahs.
All above Ayats reveals the Order of MIGHTY ALLAH that we have to obedient of Messenger of ALLAH and follow him and in Rasool there is best example for us. so how can we follow Rasool and find his complete Biography which is exemplary for us.
Quran is in Arabic Language and you have not quoted a single word in arabic. You have written only in English. which is only your understandings. It can be true or can be false. So kindly post Ayah of Quran in Arabic then post your understanding of it in your language. So it can make sense.
If you donot know arabic then you need some one to help you to understand this book.

Quran Revealed

وَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَكَ مَالَمْ تَكُنْ تَعْلَمُ وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا”۔(النساء:۱۱۳)
ترجمہ: اوراللہ تعالیٰ نے اُتاری آپ پر کتاب اور حکمت اور آپ کوسکھایا وہ جوآپ نہیں جانتے تھے اور اللہ تعالیٰ کا آپ پربڑا فضل ہے۔
And ALLAH has sent down to you the book and Hikmah and taught you which you donot know and the Grace of ALLAH upon you has been Great.

لَقَدْ مَنَّ اللّـٰهُ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِيْنَ اِذْ بَعَثَ فِـيْهِـمْ رَسُوْلًا مِّنْ اَنْفُسِهِـمْ يَتْلُوْا عَلَيْـهِـمْ اٰيَاتِهٖ وَيُزَكِّـيْـهِـمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُـمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَۚ وَاِنْ كَانُـوْا مِنْ قَبْلُ لَفِىْ ضَلَالٍ مُّبِيْنٍ (آل عمران164)

اللہ نے ایمان والوں پر احسان کیا ہے جو ان میں انہیں میں سے رسول بھیجا (وہ) ان پر اس کی آیتیں پڑھتا ہے اور انہیں پاک کرتا ہے اور انہیں کتاب اور حکمت کی تعلیم دیتا ہے، اگرچہ وہ اس سے پہلے صریح گمراہی میں تھے

Allah has surely been gracious to the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves to recite to them His verses, to purify them, and to teach them the Book and the Hikmah , though before that they were in clear error.

Note Down that ALLAH has sent down the book and The Hikmah to the Rasool and Rasool Has Taught The Book and as well as The Hikmah to the Believers.

This Hikmah is Other Than the Book which ALLAH has sent down to the Prophet and Prophet has Taught the Book to the Believers. and the Hikmah as well

 

[Citizen X]

It is just your claim that I have presented out of context Ayaats until you prove that understanding of mine is other than the true understanding of above described ayaats. So 1st reveal true understandings of above Ayaats then claim about out of context Ayahs.
All above Ayats reveals the Order of MIGHTY ALLAH that we have to obedient of Messenger of ALLAH and follow him and in Rasool there is best example for us. so how can we follow Rasool and find his complete Biography which is exemplary for us.
Quran is in Arabic Language and you have not quoted a single word in arabic. You have written only in English. which is only your understandings. It can be true or can be false. So kindly post Ayah of Quran in Arabic then post your understanding of it in your language. So it can make sense.
If you donot know arabic then you need some one to help you to understand this book.

Quran Revealed

وَأَنزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَكَ مَالَمْ تَكُنْ تَعْلَمُ وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظًِا
Translation: And Allaah has sent down to you the Book and the Wisdom, and has taught you that which you did not know. And Allaah has been gracious to you.
And ALLAH has sent down to you the book and Hikmah and taught you which you donot know and the Grace of ALLAH upon you has been Great.

بون من الله على المؤمنين بوطالوا عليهم من ان الجكيهم عليهم الكتاب ويئكيهم ويعمهم كتاب وحكمة ونانوا الكتاب لفى ضابال مبين اب الفى ظلم

Allah has favored the believers who have sent among them a messenger from among them. He recites to them His verses and purifies them and teaches them the Book and wisdom , although before that they were in manifest error.

Allah has surely been gracious to the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves to recite to them His verses, to purify them, and to teach them the Book and the Hikmah , though before that they were in clear error.

Note Down that ALLAH has sent down the book and The Hikmah to the Rasool and Rasool Has Taught The Book and as well as The Hikmah to the Believers.

This Hikmah is Other Than the Book which ALLAH has sent down to the Prophet and Prophet has Taught the Book to the Believers. and the Hikmah as well

First of all, do not lecture me about Arabic, I've been continuously living in Arab countries since the 70s and still do. Unless you have studied Arabic extensively I've probably forgotten more Arabic than you will ever know

I will not go step by step explaining each and every out of context ayat you have quoted because every few days someone comes along trying to claim what you are claiming by quoting the very same ayats and I'm tired of explaining them over and over again , go search my posting history.

I'll just post the more recent example because it is easy for me to find. Post # 20

https://www.siasat.pk/forums/threads/%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A2%D9%86-%DA%A9%DB%8C-%D8%AD%D9% 81% D8 % A7% D8% B8% D8% AA-% DA% A9% DB% 92-% D9% 84% DB% 8C% DB% 92% D8% A7% D9% 84% D9% 84% DB% 81-% DA% A9% D8% A7-% D8% AD% DB% 8C% D8% B1% D8% AA-% D8% A7% D9% 86% DA% AF% DB% 8C% D8% B2-% D8% A7 % D9% 86% D8% AA% D8% B8% D8% A7% D9% 85.808041 / # post- 6315467

Similarly if you put the rest of ayats in context, it will be clear what they are talking about and not what you want them to talk about ie follow dubious, uncredible unverifiable and down right fabricated man made books written centuries later by persians so you can follow your hadithist religion.

16:89

And [mention] the Day when We will resurrect among every nation a witness over them from themselves. And We will bring you, [O Muhammad], as a witness over your nation. And We have sent down to you the Book as clarification for all things and as guidance and mercy and good tidings for the Muslims.

16: 103

And we certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language.

2: 2

This is the Book about which there is no doubt a guidance for those conscious of Allah -

6: 114

Say: " Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who has sent unto you the Book, explained in detail " They know full well, to whom we have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

45: 6

These are Allah's revelations We recite to you in truth. Then in which hadith after Allah and His verses will they believe ?

12.111

There was certainly in their stories a lesson for those of understanding. Never was the Qur'an a narration invented, but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of all things and guidance and mercy for a people who believe.

7:52

And We had certainly brought them a Book which We detailed by knowledge - as guidance and mercy to a people who believe.


Allah over and over and over says the Quran is a complete book, fully detailed, in clear and easy to understand language and if there was need for another book he would have sent it because as he says in Surah Khaf 109 that if all the trees were pens and oceans the ink his words would still not finish even if the oceans were refilled again. But he didn't and stopped at the Quran

You haditists own hadith says the Prophet forbade the writing of the hadith, during the period of the kulafah rasidun no hadith books were written, because they, the early Muslism followed the Prophets command of forbidding hafith. Only centuries later persian scribes started to "gather hadith" The Quran says its from Allah, it is complete, detailed, clear and easy to understand and remember.

Now if you believe this then there is no need to believe in anything else or need another body of text trying to "explain" what Allah has said is detailed and clear. And id you don't believe that then IMO there is no need to believe in such a book even after claiming to be complete and detailed but isn't i.e contradicts itself and needs another huge body of text ( at last count over 50 complilations, not books complilations i,e multiple books in each complilation ) to explain it.

Think logically would you even buy a used car on such a premise. That I heard from my friend Ahmed, who heard from his friend Yousuf who heard from his friend Jasim who heard from his friend Rashid who heard from his friend Latif who heard from his friend Usman who heard from his friend Omar who heard from his friend Habib that his mechanic has checked this car and it is perfect, so go ahead and buy it eyes closed.

Since you won't spend even a few 1000 and sign a contract to buy a used car on such a premise, so how do you blindly base your religion, your deeds and hand over your hereafter in eternity on exactly the same ridiculous premise.

Also do a couple of things if you haven't done so already, since Bhukari is the most famous and claimed to be the most authentic book after the Quran, go read it cover to cover all 9 volumes and see the amount of junk and downright blasphemous hadith are in there, and this is the case with every collection.

Second go look up hadith sciences and do some research into the history of Bhukari you will find out that it fails the conditions set by muhaditseen themselves to be authentic / sahih. If fact it is mahjoul, same with Musnad Ahmad and I'm pretty sure if you look into the other more 50 plus collections such issues will arise.

I can go on and on about critical issues and problems with hadith, issues well known, but are swept under the carpet by the traditional muslisms ie hadithists because like it or not or admit it or not. Your primary source of religion is hadith and not the Quran.

I'll leave you with the same example as before, if the Quran never existed and only hadith did, nothing in your religion would change, your beliefs the way you practice it etc etc. BUT if the hadith never existed but only the Quran, your beliefs and your practices would be totally different than what they are today.

Result: Your religion is the religion of and from hadith and not of and from the Quran.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

First of all as the desi saying goes, jo mukka lardai ke baad yaad aye woh apnay mou per mar lena chaiye.

مکّا باری تو لڑائی میں ہوتی ہے۔ بحث میں اگر جہالت سے بچنے کے لیئے کچھ وقت مطالعے کے لیئے لیا جائے، تو وہ بحث سیر حاصل ہی رہتی ہے۔ ورنہ رسمِ جہالت کے تحت صرف ایک مکالمہ بازی کہلاتی ہے۔ خیر مجھے ابھی تک یہ گمان تھا کہ ہم بحث میں مشغول ہیں۔ ​

I'm in no mood to go back and revisit this entire thread to get back to speed and continue the discussion from where we left off.

All you had to do was to just look at your last post. Off course, I only replied to the last one you posted. Otherwise, your and mine reasons and themes remain invariable through out our course of interaction.

All I will say is. The Quran says its from Allah, it is complete, detailed, clear and easy to understand and remember. Now if you believe this then there is no need to believe in anything else or need another body of text trying to "explain" what Allah has said is detailed and clear.

AND

If you don't believe the Quran is from Allah, it is complete, detailed, clear and easy to understand and remember, then there really is no need to believe in the Quran anyways.

Had anyone of the Hadith followers come to you saying that he considers Quran as inferior to hadith? or negating what you said above?

Moreover, yes, Quran is complete, in its own sense, like our constitution is complete in its own accord. But, does any constitution prescribes that if a man steals a loaf due to hunger, then shall we chop off his hand too?

Likewise, there is a failure on your part to appreciate that hierarchy of laws, by laws and rules, to which the Ahadith, Fiqah, Ijtihad and Ijma etc are the main tools. Though, as every law, by law and rule is governed by the constitution, likewise in Islamic Jurisprudence, any derivation through hadith, fiqah, ijtihad and/or Ijma are to be subservient to Quran, otherwise they are not acceptable/implementable.

See above, on the left, there is an hierarchy of derivation of laws, by laws, rules and procedures which forms the body of legislature in totality. In the middle, the questions which arise are briefed as an example and on the right, there is the derivation hierarchy according to Islamic Jurisprudence. As on the left end point, the condition is set that none of the laws, by-laws and/or the rules and procedures have an overriding effect on the constitution, likewise, there is a condition in Islamic Jurisprudence as well that none of the hadith, sunnah, riwayt, ijma, ijtihad etc have an overriding effect on the teachings of Quran. So, Quran remains supreme as the constitution. However, it is not the intent of the constitution to circumscribe all the modalities that may represent themselves in each and every case. However, on the basis of this, the constitution cannot be termed as incomplete, because its intent is to set down the principles. Likewise, Quran is also complete in its message.
Otherwise, it is also written in Surah Luqman that:

If all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean ˹were ink˺, refilled by seven other oceans, the Words of Allah would not be exhausted. Surely Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (31: 27).

or continue the discussion on my other thread

Sorry but the arguments in the video you referred earlier or either the one on this thread, are way off than the course of discussion we have on the utility of hadith and sunnah. They also lack the appreciation that many of the hadith and riwayaats have been rendered Zaeef by the scholars due to the fact that they are not in consonance with Quran.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

None of the ayahs point to your tradition of following books written by men centuries later.

and now for the comparative questions.

 

[Citizen X]

Had anyone of the Hadith followers come to you saying that he considers Quran as inferior to hadith?

Nobody ever says it, because just like the shias, who also claim supremacy of the Prophet i.e pay lip service but for all intents and purposes their Imams are way superior to the Prophet, You also claim we follow the Quran is superior and we don't follow anything that goes against it, but in reality you do. Actions speak louder than words. Your entire religion is based on hadith and not on the Quran even though you might not realize it yourself.

No one yet been able to refute my simple hypothetical questions I posed above. Existence of Quran or it's not existence makes absolutely no difference to your religion of hadith. Everything stays the same. But if you take out hadith from your religion your religion falls like a deck of cards. Hence proving what you follow is the religion scribed by defeated persians centuries after after the passing of the Prophet.

Rest of your entire post sorry to say is just verbal gymnastics trying to justify hadith and somehow that it is needed to "explain" the Quran. Even when the Quran literally shouts from every mountain top that it is complete and detailed and does not need anything else, yet you jump all sorts of mental hoops going against the Quran to prove otherwise.

Like I said if you believe the Quran is word of Allah and you believe in it, then you have no need to believe or follow anything else or any other huge body of text specially when Allah himselves says his book is complete and detailed.

No where does he say, you need to refer to other books that will be scribed by men centuries later to explain my ultimate book.

If you believe that, then I say there is no need to believe in the Quran at all. I don't want to believe in such an incomplete book. Which needs almost a 100 more books all scribed by different authors to explain it. Such a book cannot be divine or word of God.

 

[Citizen X]

and now for the comparative questions.

*Sigh! ? ? ? ? not this stupidity again!

This once again is a extremely dumb comparison which I've already debunked, with you or was it somebody else, can't remember. Comparing the validity of the Quran with hadith is like comparing apples with exoplanets. Not even in the same galaxy.

 

[Citizen X]

Sorry but the arguments in the video you referred earlier or either the one on this thread, are way off than the course of discussion we have on the utility of hadith and sunnah.

What? Is that what you think this is all about? Man you got it all wrong. I have in no shape or form having a discussion on the utility of hadith. For me to do that, I would first have to believe that they are credible and that they are a source of deen and Quran instructs us to take hadith as a supplementary source of deen.

And I don't believe in any of that. My whole point here is 1st Quran is very clear about it being, complete, clear and detailed. So will you take any hadith other than the hadith of Allah as your judge, absolutely not.

2nd The authenticity of hadith is flaky at best and like my example below I'm being kind here.

Think logically would you even buy a used car on such a premise. That I heard from my friend Ahmed, who heard from his friend Yousuf who heard from his friend Jasim who heard from his friend Rashid who heard from his friend Latif who heard from his friend Usman who heard from his friend Omar who heard from his friend Habib that his mechanic has checked this car and it is perfect, so go ahead and buy it eyes closed

 

[Wake up Pak]

As posted earlier
The Muslims are required to use their intellect, learn the Quran by themselves and take direct guidance from it. But unfortunately, very few people take efforts in this direction.
A great majority of Muslims in the world are not indeed believers. They think of themselves as believers because they were born into the so-called Muslim families and are being charmed into thinking as such by the Mullahs just because they UTTER believe in God and His Messengers.
Mullahs do so because of ignorance and because they want to keep their stranglehold on the masses and protect their false pride, honor, and financial interests. Therefore, the so-called Muslims of today are slaves of false tradition and blind following.
For guidance in the matters of “Deen,” they often approach the Priest. The Priest when consulted for any particular issue about “Deen” quotes the authority of some Imam/hadith or some so-called learned man and seldom quotes the authority of the Quran.

33:67 ‏وَقَالُوا۟ رَبَّنَآ إِنَّآ أَطَعْنَا سَادَتَنَا وَكُبَرَآءَنَا فَأَضَلُّونَا ٱلسَّبِيلَا۠

And they will say, “Our Lord! We obeyed our leaders and elite, but they led us astray from the ˹Right˺ Way.

 

[Wake up Pak]

The Quran = God's Word
Ahadith = man's word
The Quran = 100% fact/truth/perfect
Ahadith = mix of truth and falsehood (hence weak and strong hadith)
The Quran = was recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet Muhammad
Ahadith = not recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet Muhammad
The Quran = written AND memorized word for word as soon as it was transmitted
Ahadith = no-one ever claimed to record and memorize ahadith word for word as soon as it was transmitted
The Quran = is protected explicitly by God Himself as stated in The Quran
Ahadith = no such explicit protection stated
The Quran = no Muslim doubts its credibility
Ahadith = each sect has its versions, weak & strong ones, etc
The Quran = in-built verification mechanism e.g. challenges others to find an inconsistency, brings a chapter like it, etc.
Ahadith = no such in-built mechanism, full of inconsistencies, etc.

 

[Wake up Pak]

“The words of your Lord are complete in its truth and justice. Nothing can change His words – He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. If you obeyed most of those on earth, they would lead you away from the path of Allah. They follow nothing but speculation – they are merely guessing.” (Qur’an 6:115-116)

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has a clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)

“Shall I then seek a Judge other than Allah? When it is He Who has revealed to you the Book fully detailed?” (Qur'an 6:114)

"Say, ‘I do not say to you that I have treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me.’ " (Qur’an 6:50)

"We have sent down to you a Book containing your message. Do you not understand?" (Qur'an 21:10)

 

[Wake up Pak]

“The words of your Lord are complete in its truth and justice. Nothing can change His words – He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. If you obeyed most of those on earth, they would lead you away from the path of Allah. They follow nothing but speculation – they are merely guessing.” (Qur’an 6:115-116)

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has a clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)

“Shall I then seek a Judge other than Allah? When it is He Who has revealed to you the Book fully detailed?” (Qur'an 6:114)

"Say, ‘I do not say to you that I have treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me.’ " (Qur’an 6:50)

"We have sent down to you a Book containing your message. Do you not understand?" (Qur'an 21:10)

 

[Sohail Shuja]

*Sigh! ? ? ? ? not this stupidity again!

This once again is a extremely dumb comparison which I've already debunked, with you or was it somebody else, can't remember. Comparing the validity of the Quran with hadith is like comparing apples with exoplanets. Not even in the same galaxy.

It's no stupidity my dear.... its where the rubber meets the road and you get on defensive mode.

Why not take everything as objectively as it is .... ?

And the keyword here is reliability, not validity.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

What? Is that what you think this is all about? Man you got it all wrong. I have in no shape or form having a discussion on the utility of hadith. For me to do that, I would first have to believe that they are credible and that they are a source of deen and Quran instructs us to take hadith as a supplementary source of deen.

And I don't believe in any of that. My whole point here is 1st Quran is very clear about it being, complete, clear and detailed. So will you take any hadith other than the hadith of Allah as your judge, absolutely not.

2nd The authenticity of hadith is flaky at best and like my example below I'm being kind here.

Well, as repeated many times and here, once again, the credibility of a hadith is its relevance to Quran. Why you purposefully keep defying this thing? It had been said numerous times and again...

Secondly Quran tells us to follow Muhammad (SAW), as he (SAW) was the best role model for us.

 

[Wake up Pak]

The Quran nowhere tells us to follow the prophet, Mohammad.
Many people cite the Quranic verses that command us to “Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger”, and say that Obeying Allah and obeying the Messenger are two different things. Obeying Allah is to obey the Quran, and obeying the Messenger is to obey the books of hadith.
The word “Messenger” is derived from the word “Message”. A Messenger delivers a Message. To “Obey the Messenger” would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering and that is the Quran.
There are about 21 verses in the Quran about "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger"



All the messengers were to be obeyed:
4:64 And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful

Here I found a small piece of detailed explanation of "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger"

When we tell people that 'we believe the Quran alone is all we need'
They will respond by claiming we have denied the sunna of the messenger because God says "obey God and the messenger" in the Quran
And they claim that 'obey God' refers to the Quran, and 'obey the messenger' with the books of Hadith and Sunna
So they believe 'obey God and the messenger' is to follow two different sources.
So let's study the phrase 'obey God and the messenger' from a Quranic point of view
The first Observation: The Quran always says 'obey God and the messenger'.
Never does it say 'obey the prophet' or 'obey Muhammad'.
It is always 'obey God and the messenger'
So it is important to understand what the term 'messenger' (Rasool) means.
And why God did not say 'obey the prophet (nabi)'?
Muhammad had two statuses: The status of NUBUWA (prophethood) And the status of RASOOL (messenger)
The status of NUBUWA - the word NUBUWA means 'high or elevated place'.
This means that God has chosen Muhammad, out of all the humans, to communicate with him certain news, prophecies, etc.
So the status of NUBUWA (prophet) means that a human being is communicating with God.
The status of RASOOL - God tells us the status of RASOOL in the Quran:
(5:67) O messenger, deliver what was sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not delivered His message...
We see that God tells us the duty of the messenger is to deliver the message of God
God also says: (24:54) ...there is nothing upon the messenger except the clear delivery...
This teaches us that the sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message to the people
So if God did not give Muhammad the 'message', then he would not be called 'messenger' (Rasool).
So God calls him 'Rasool because Muhammad is carrying the 'message'.
What is this message that Muhammad carried? The messenger himself answers this in the Quran:
(6:19) ...this Quran has been inspired me to deliver it to you and whoever it reaches...
All these verses teach us that a messenger has to deliver the message.
Muhammad - the messenger - is required to send us the Quran
So when God says "obey the messenger" we are essentially obeying the 'message' itself
Another observation: God says in the Quran (4:80) "Whoever obeys the messenger, has obeyed God..."
This means when we obey the messenger - the message - the Quran, we have in reality obeyed God
All these verses teach us that 'obey God and the messenger' is essentially obeying ONE source - the Quran
Let's assume that the Quran tells us "obey God" without mentioning obeying the messenger. How would we do that?
This would mean that God Himself would have to come to earth and give us the Quran directly
This of course is illogical
This is why we are to 'obey God and the messenger' - because God gave Muhammad 'the message' which makes him 'a messenger'
And the messenger is required to deliver it to humanity.
So this is what 'obey God and the messenger' means from the Quran.
"Obey God and the messenger" is essentially ONE source - the Quran.
We obey the messenger because he has the 'the message'.

 

[Citizen X]

It's no stupidity my dear.

No believe me it is. It is exactly that, stupidity!

I can't believe I have to go over this again. Comparing the Quran, a divine revelation, something that was completely revealed in the lifetime of the Prophet, who then transmitted it to 100s if not 1000s of people and personally verified that is was transmitted correctly to some thing that was written centuries later in far off lands by persians majority based on khabr-e-wahid with the flawed methodology of he heard from x who heard from y so on and so forth going back generations and centuries of from which 100s if not 1000s have already been officially declared totally fabricated, unreliable or unverifiable by the champions of hadith themselves, the muhadithseen and this process goes on till today where everyday a new hadith is declared fabricated, weak or unverifiable.

Not talking right now about the major and so called most authentic after the Quran Bhukari in it self does not meet the standard of Sahih/Authentic as set by the hadith champions themselves, same story with Musnad of Ahmad.

So like I said trying to compare the Quran with hadith is not even in the same galaxy.

 

[Citizen X]

Well, as repeated many times and here, once again, the credibility of a hadith is its relevance to Quran.

Just by saying that doesn't make it true, no matter how many times you say it. I know you fully believe this, because thats been your programming since day.

I'll cite you the most easiest example which I have done before in another thread, but seems like you have a short memory.

Hadith of the Prophet marrying Ayesha r.a at age 9, now this itself totally goes against the very spirit of the deen revealed in the Quran but you hadith apologists do all sorts of verbal gymnastics trying to justify it, either trying to change the age a little here a little there, or some other excuse oh but the marriage was consummate later on, which TBH doesn't make it any better. Every ploy under the sun is used to justify the hadith, but NO ONE from you hadithist has the audacity to say this is against the Quran so it is false and fabricated. Because that would mean blasphemy and tauheen against the great Bhukari we can't let that happen, so lets throw away the Quran and push the Prophet under the bus of being a pedo so we can save our beloved Bhukari.

Blasphemy and capital punishment it also totally goes against the Quran there is no concept of blasphemy in the Quran let alone capital punishment for a non existent crime, but no this is also law in many countries including our based 10001% only on hadith.

Many such hadith which are practiced and followed in totally contradiction to the Quran, why because brain washed sheep cannot dare insult bhukari or muslim or majah etc etc, so lets just throw away the Quran.

Not to mention the many blasphemous hadith outright insult the Prophet, no one has the courage or ever said they are all false and fabricated, why? Once again cannot go against the hadith, even if it means throwing the Prophet under the bus.

So like I said you can bang on as much as you like about we follow the Quran and it is the supreme, but reality is much different.

Watch the video in the first post of Hassan Farhan, makes the same point but expands on it further.

Secondly Quran tells us to follow Muhammad (SAW), as he (SAW) was the best role model for us.

And how do you do that? BY following the Quran.

"Say, ‘I do not say to you that I have treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me.’ " (Qur’an 6:50)

Copying and following the Prophets day to day activities has no meaning or relevance and nor was this his mission, your own hadith says the Prophet forbid the taking of hadith and commanded do not take anything from me other than the Quran.

Why didn't the Khulafa Rashidun or his closet sahaba compile hadith? After all they had the freshest memory and everything had happened in front of them. This would be the perfect time to compile the hadith if it was so important. Instead his closest companions have narrated almost no hadith when you look at the close to a million hadith floating around.

Why did Umar r.a beat Abu Hurairah for narrating too much hadith and threated to deport him back to Yemen if he didn't stop?

Your version of Islam today is no different from Judaism or Christianity, which are also based on hadith of their people, rather than the books which God revealed to them. Which in turn these same hadith narrators corrupted.

Luckly for us, Allah has said he will protect the Quran, other wise hadithists would have long corrupted the Quran as well.

 

[Citizen X]

Secondly Quran tells us to follow Muhammad (SAW), as he (SAW) was the best role model for us.

P.S : No where does the Quran says follow the hadith of the Prophet. But it does say follow the Hadith of Allah. if he really wanted to us to follow the "hadith" of the Prophet he would have told us so directly.

And also tasked the Prophet of preserving and verifying the hadith himself in his lifetime, but that only happened with the Quran. Because we are commanded to follow the Quran and nothing else.

Centuries later the Persians still sore from being the super of the time and having one of the greatest and biggest empire of its time defeated by rag tag army of bedus from the desert found this new way to corrupt the deenand get back at them, since they knew they could not mess with the Quran, they invented this whole concept of hadith and that it needs to be followed.

And believe me they are still sore about it to this day. Just mention the name Umar loudly in central tehran and see what happens to you.

 

[Citizen X]

The Quran nowhere tells us to follow the prophet, Mohammad.
Many people cite the Quranic verses that command us to “Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger”, and say that Obeying Allah and obeying the Messenger are two different things. Obeying Allah is to obey the Quran, and obeying the Messenger is to obey the books of hadith.
The word “Messenger” is derived from the word “Message”. A Messenger delivers a Message. To “Obey the Messenger” would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering and that is the Quran.
There are about 21 verses in the Quran about "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger"



All the messengers were to be obeyed:
4:64 And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful

Here I found a small piece of detailed explanation of "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger"

When we tell people that 'we believe the Quran alone is all we need'
They will respond by claiming we have denied the sunna of the messenger because God says "obey God and the messenger" in the Quran
And they claim that 'obey God' refers to the Quran, and 'obey the messenger' with the books of Hadith and Sunna
So they believe 'obey God and the messenger' is to follow two different sources.
So let's study the phrase 'obey God and the messenger' from a Quranic point of view
The first Observation: The Quran always says 'obey God and the messenger'.
Never does it say 'obey the prophet' or 'obey Muhammad'.
It is always 'obey God and the messenger'
So it is important to understand what the term 'messenger' (Rasool) means.
And why God did not say 'obey the prophet (nabi)'?
Muhammad had two statuses: The status of NUBUWA (prophethood) And the status of RASOOL (messenger)
The status of NUBUWA - the word NUBUWA means 'high or elevated place'.
This means that God has chosen Muhammad, out of all the humans, to communicate with him certain news, prophecies, etc.
So the status of NUBUWA (prophet) means that a human being is communicating with God.
The status of RASOOL - God tells us the status of RASOOL in the Quran:
(5:67) O messenger, deliver what was sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not delivered His message...
We see that God tells us the duty of the messenger is to deliver the message of God
God also says: (24:54) ...there is nothing upon the messenger except the clear delivery...
This teaches us that the sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message to the people
So if God did not give Muhammad the 'message', then he would not be called 'messenger' (Rasool).
So God calls him 'Rasool because Muhammad is carrying the 'message'.
What is this message that Muhammad carried? The messenger himself answers this in the Quran:
(6:19) ...this Quran has been inspired me to deliver it to you and whoever it reaches...
All these verses teach us that a messenger has to deliver the message.
Muhammad - the messenger - is required to send us the Quran
So when God says "obey the messenger" we are essentially obeying the 'message' itself
Another observation: God says in the Quran (4:80) "Whoever obeys the messenger, has obeyed God..."
This means when we obey the messenger - the message - the Quran, we have in reality obeyed God
All these verses teach us that 'obey God and the messenger' is essentially obeying ONE source - the Quran
Let's assume that the Quran tells us "obey God" without mentioning obeying the messenger. How would we do that?
This would mean that God Himself would have to come to earth and give us the Quran directly
This of course is illogical
This is why we are to 'obey God and the messenger' - because God gave Muhammad 'the message' which makes him 'a messenger'
And the messenger is required to deliver it to humanity.
So this is what 'obey God and the messenger' means from the Quran.
"Obey God and the messenger" is essentially ONE source - the Quran.
We obey the messenger because he has the 'the message'.

Allah guides who he wills! I think I have never thanked you directly for starting me on this journey. So thank you.

I remember when I was a traditional Muslim i.e typical hadithist as well infact maybe more than a typical hadithist, since unlike most who defend hadith I had actually read quite a lot of it and we would spar exactly like this! lol