قاسم کے ابا اداروں سے مستفید ہوتے ہیں تو انہیں باپ بنالیتے ہیں، وزیراعظم

[RajaRawal111]

Come on Rajay, you know you can do better than just reading it off from the NA's Website. Make some sense out of it as well. Moreover, have you read the one after the 2017 amendment or the prior version of that, as originally legislated?

Not sure Paa jee why do you want me to read all versions of the Constitution right from its birth (in 1973)? You can tell me what was different. And our point of discussion is the causes of the violent movement. As you tried to connect it to the Constitution Article 246/247

Why have you missed out on the "One Unit" of 1955?
First military operation in Baluchistan was launched in April 1948. Let me know when you find out the reasons for it.

For the second wave, post 1955, I think I have already given you enough feed in the form of One Unit and also the photograph of Najam Sethi.

All I can say is that it was one stupid idea of goof. It meant nothing at all. Besides its happening what it is an issue today. The generation which did this and which saw is almost dead. What it has to do with Baluch movement today. What it is still stuck i their A22. I did not quite get your point
The picture is not of Najum Sethi

Now I would certainly like to know your premise of the argument that the people of those Tribal areas like individual voting, & specifically voting for the representatives we have in NA and Senate of Pakistan?


Why do they mention Baluchistan as a Tribal area, why not a Province?
Where is the Jirga of Baluchistan? have you ever heard of any? then why is it on the constitution, still?

If you still cannot find it, then read my last comment (post # 35), again. This time, with an emphasis on the last paragraph.

The two or three "Whys" in your comment which mean nothing. I can open up 1000 Whys like this from other parts of the country. It is just an administrative setup that is a bit refined now and still has room to be refined without any violence.
About your comment No-35, I think you are trying to put all the blame on the Establishment. Which is a Universals truth. But look at the other side of the coin as well. We need an order on the land. Our army fought Zarb-e-Azab and brought temporary sukoon to the whole nation.
There is a criminal element infiltrating BLA and using a non-issue to engage our Army and we have to let them deal with the language they understand. When you killed some dogs in Zarb-e-Azab. Do you think we could have tried them in courts?

 

[RajaRawal111]

Why have you missed out on the "One Unit" of 1955?

Apart from anything else. Personally, I am in favor of more provinces in Pakistan. Each division should actually be a province with full autonomy of finances, Taxation, Police, Industrial policies education, health, and all other autonomies you need. Make it the United States of Pakistan. There is no harm in it. But please don't laugh at me on this. It is just what I want to see. It will not happen soon.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Not sure Paa jee why do you want me to read all versions of the Constitution right from its birth (in 1973)? You can tell me what was different. And our point of discussion is the causes of the violent movement. As you tried to connect it to the Constitution Article 246/247

All I can say is that it was one stupid idea of goof. It meant nothing at all. Besides its happening what it is an issue today. The generation which did this and which saw is almost dead. What it has to do with Baluch movement today. What it is still stuck i their A22. I did not quite get your point
The picture is not of Najum Sethi

The two or three "Whys" in your comment which mean nothing. I can open up 1000 Whys like this from other parts of the country. It is just an administrative setup that is a bit refined now and still has room to be refined without any violence.
About your comment No-35, I think you are trying to put all the blame on the Establishment. Which is a Universals truth. But look at the other side of the coin as well. We need an order on the land. Our army fought Zarb-e-Azab and brought temporary sukoon to the whole nation.
There is a criminal element infiltrating BLA and using a non-issue to engage our Army and we have to let them deal with the language they understand. When you killed some dogs in Zarb-e-Azab. Do you think we could have tried them in courts?

I think you are just trying to hide behind words here, for a denial of what does not match your predisposition.

You do understand that the cause of friction is because taking the autonomy and the power from the Tribal areas, starting from April 1948. The articles 246/47 clearly define their autonomy. Which, is non-existent, on grounds.

The 1955's move of 'one unit', which was a move to consolidate power in the Punjab gave us more divide, culminating to not only the Dhaka fall, but convoluted matters in Baluchistan as well. The picture posted by Najam Sethi, of the armed movement which stemmed as a result of this usury, is a proof-- its a historical fact. The very fact of the history from which we have to learn.

And whenever there is fire, your enemies will not refrain from fueling it.

You know Rajay, it is said that “The illiterate of the twenty-first century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.” So, we should keep our minds open to unlearn and relearn somethings which may not be the popular belief.

They will tell you that India does not want CPEC so it has launched BLA, which is true, and they will tell you that the actions of BLA are against the State, which also is the truth.

But do you know that a lie is craftily hidden between two truths. That is why it sounds convincing. Just ask them about the provisions of article 246/47 and let me know the answer they have for it.

 

[RajaRawal111]

I think you are just trying to hide behind words here, for a denial of what does not match your predisposition.

You do understand that the cause of friction is because taking the autonomy and the power from the Tribal areas, starting from April 1948. The articles 246/47 clearly define their autonomy. Which, is non-existent, on grounds.

The 1955's move of 'one unit', which was a move to consolidate power in the Punjab gave us more divide, culminating to not only the Dhaka fall, but convoluted matters in Baluchistan as well. The picture posted by Najam Sethi, of the armed movement which stemmed as a result of this usury, is a proof-- its a historical fact. The very fact of the history from which we have to learn.

And whenever there is fire, your enemies will not refrain from fueling it.

You know Rajay, it is said that “The illiterate of the twenty-first century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.” So, we should keep our minds open to unlearn and relearn somethings which may not be the popular belief.

They will tell you that India does not want CPEC so it has launched BLA, which is true, and they will tell you that the actions of BLA are against the State, which also is the truth.

But do you know that a lie is craftily hidden between two truths. That is why it sounds convincing. Just ask them about the provisions of article 246/47 and let me know the answer they have for it.

Looking at your perspective, You made me read the Articles just to know that it talks about autonomy.
Then why the hell I can't have that autonomy in my Bahriya Town Rawalpindi or in my birthplace Mohallah Ammar Pura? What the heck do you want to say Paa je ??

So far as the legal aspects of Autonym are concerned. I want much more than that. Read my comment No 42.

 

[RajaRawal111]

You know Rajay, it is said that “The illiterate of the twenty-first century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.” So, we should keep our minds open to unlearn and relearn somethings which may not be the popular belief.

And if learning and relearning are important. Then why can't I learn from what was done in Waziristan? You must be blind if you cannot see those lessons.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Looking at your perspective, You made me read the Articles just to know that it talks about autonomy.

Yes, indeed, I asked you to read it because it tells about the autonomy. but I also asked you where is that autonomy guaranteed to them by the Constitution?

Then why the hell I can't have that autonomy in my Bahriya Town Rawalpindi or in my birthplace Mohallah Ammar Pura? What the heck do you want to say Paa je ??

Because, you were a part of the British Colony. Whereas these Tribal Areas and States were never subdued by the angraiz. Gora could only divide the lands under his command & not these areas. They were independent then and they are fighting for their independence even after the death of Quaid e Azam.

Mind you, these Tribal Areas and States were not on the map of Pakistan in 1947. Specially Baluchistan allied with Pakistan on March 24, 1948, via an agreement between the State of Pakistan and these Princely States and Tribal Areas.

So far as the legal aspects of Autonym are concerned. I want much more than that. Read my comment No 42.

Speaking in techno-legal terms, the lands which were partitioned under the Indian Independence Act 1947 have to abide by the rules set forth therein. However, as parts of the "Federal Republic", the "Provinces" were delegated certain degree of autonomy under the 18th Amendment. However, these provinces still have to have a parliamentary democracy & many other provisions are to be made (as set out in the Independence Act 1947). But, the regions of PATA & FATA are not required to do so and that is what is reflected in the articles 246/7. Do you think that Quaid e Azam and even Bhutto were constitutional or legal tomfools?

Quaid e Azam used this autonomy for the leverage of Pakistan by asking the Tribals to go into Kashmir and get AJK. That was a political and legal geniusity at its best. If it were the Pakistan Army to initiate the independence of AJK then there would've been a withdrawal of Pak Army afterwards, as being a abrogation of the Act of 1947. But, these Tribals and States were independent and Angraiz could not do anything as they were under their occupation.

However, we are using this autonomy to create more divide

 

[Sohail Shuja]

And if learning and relearning are important. Then why can't I learn from what was done in Waziristan? You must be blind if you cannot see those lessons.

What actually are you referring to in Waziristan? I am sorry I cannot comprehend it. Can you kindly elaborate?

 

[Mocha7]

Tell me that you have not found the answer of your questions, while searching for the questions I posed in response?

Why are you asking so many questions? Why don't you just write a few sentences explaining why you believe that the insurgency in KPK and Balochistan is truly motivated by these issues, rather than writing lengthy questions and responses one after another?

 

[RajaRawal111]

Yes, indeed, I asked you to read it because it tells about the autonomy. but I also asked you where is that autonomy guaranteed to them by the Constitution?

Because, you were a part of the British Colony. Whereas these Tribal Areas and States were never subdued by the angraiz. Gora could only divide the lands under his command & not these areas. They were independent then and they are fighting for their independence even after the death of Quaid e Azam.

Mind you, these Tribal Areas and States were not on the map of Pakistan in 1947. Specially Baluchistan allied with Pakistan on March 24, 1948, via an agreement between the State of Pakistan and these Princely States and Tribal Areas.


Speaking in techno-legal terms, the lands which were partitioned under the Indian Independence Act 1947 have to abide by the rules set forth therein. However, as parts of the "Federal Republic", the "Provinces" were delegated certain degree of autonomy under the 18th Amendment. However, these provinces still have to have a parliamentary democracy & many other provisions are to be made (as set out in the Independence Act 1947). But, the regions of PATA & FATA are not required to do so and that is what is reflected in the articles 246/7. Do you think that Quaid e Azam and even Bhutto were constitutional or legal tomfools?

Quaid e Azam used this autonomy for the leverage of Pakistan by asking the Tribals to go into Kashmir and get AJK. That was a political and legal geniusity at its best. If it were the Pakistan Army to initiate the independence of AJK then there would've been a withdrawal of Pak Army afterwards, as being a abrogation of the Act of 1947. But, these Tribals and States were independent and Angraiz could not do anything as they were under their occupation.

However, we are using this autonomy to create more divide

I see what you are trying to say now Paa jee. They have the birthright because their domicile belongs to those areas which were not under British rule.
Now please tell me what exactly is the demand of these landlocked areas. What they want to do with it.

 

[RajaRawal111]

What actually are you referring to in Waziristan? I am sorry I cannot comprehend it. Can you kindly elaborate?

What I meant was that we cleaned the areas where Poison Ives used to grow.
The lesson is that "we can do it".

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Why are you asking so many questions? Why don't you just write a few sentences explaining why you believe that the insurgency in KPK and Balochistan is truly motivated by these issues, rather than writing lengthy questions and responses one after another?

Which respective response to you is lengthy?

 

[Sohail Shuja]

I see what you are trying to say now Paa jee. They have the birthright because their domicile belongs to those areas which were not under British rule.

Wrong again. Just take them as separate states who allied with Pakistan, instead of India, Afghanistan or even Iran of that era. Mind you, Iran under the rule of Shah Pehalvi was a very vibrant economy. Even in 1971, it was the plan of Raza Shah that if Pakistan loses the war in West Pakistan, then they will go and capture Baluchistan.

So, treat them as separate states, according to the agreement we made with them and as it is reflected in our constitution as well. If we are abrogating our own constitution, then we are the ones who is making a mess here.

The problem is further exacerbated by the one sided media. They only tow the narrative of one side i.e. our Miltablishment.

Now please tell me what exactly is the demand of these landlocked areas. What they want to do with it.

Rajay, these landlocked areas have provided a resistance in history which even the angraiz here couldn't overcome. So do away with your sense of superiority first. We are also fighting them since 2005, have they been eliminated? or do they keep coming back? This is continuous internal attrition which Pakistan is facing, both in economic and security terms.

Secondly, their present demands are morphed by their grievances over time & the irresponsible behavior of our state towards them for so long.

Therefore, we need to address their grievances first. Then their demands will be changed. It is a matter of a political dialogue and justified distribution of power, resources & authority.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

What I meant was that we cleaned the areas where Poison Ives used to grow.
The lesson is that "we can do it".

The matter of Baluchistan and the Northern FATA regions is different. Do not take them as one.

Who has sown the poison Ivies here? It all started from Swat, which does not border Afghanistan. The problem started after the Supreme Court's verdict on PATA regions in 1994 or 1996 (I can't remember clearly now, but it were the times of Benazir), and then Tehreek e Nifaaze Shariat e Mhammadi (TNSM) was born. This TNSM then morphed into TTP after 2001.

But when under the directives of US, under the coalition of the Afghan war, the US dones started bombing these areas and our military also started to conduct operations there, their hatred began to breed. This spreaded out like wildfire in the FATA regions as well.

Then US pulled out and we are now fighting thier war in our regions of FATA. Rather, now we have made it our own war, just for no reason. However, now our Miltablishment has also extended their authority over the FATA regions and have desecrated the FCR under the 25th Constitutional Amendment. I will not shy away here to implicate that Mr. Imran Khan was also a privy and a hand in gloves in this move of our state's illegal occupation of FATA regions.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

What I meant was that we cleaned the areas where Poison Ives used to grow.
The lesson is that "we can do it".

In short:

کنوئیں میں کتا مرا ہوا پڑا ہے، پہلے کتا نکالو۔ ہر مرتبہ بیس یا چالیس ڈول پانی کے نکالنے سے بدبو صرف تھوڑی دیر کے لیئے آنا بند ہوگی۔​

 

[RajaRawal111]

Wrong again. Just take them as separate states who allied with Pakistan, instead of India, Afghanistan or even Iran of that era. Mind you, Iran under the rule of Shah Pehalvi was a very vibrant economy. Even in 1971, it was the plan of Raza Shah that if Pakistan loses the war in West Pakistan, then they will go and capture Baluchistan.

So, treat them as separate states, according to the agreement we made with them and as it is reflected in our constitution as well. If we are abrogating our own constitution, then we are the ones who is making a mess here.

The problem is further exacerbated by the one sided media. They only tow the narrative of one side i.e. our Miltablishment.


Rajay, these landlocked areas have provided a resistance in history which even the angraiz here couldn't overcome. So do away with your sense of superiority first. We are also fighting them since 2005, have they been eliminated? or do they keep coming back? This is continuous internal attrition which Pakistan is facing, both in economic and security terms.

Secondly, their present demands are morphed by their grievances over time & the irresponsible behavior of our state towards them for so long.

Therefore, we need to address their grievances first. Then their demands will be changed. It is a matter of a political dialogue and justified distribution of power, resources & authority.

I will repeat again, that personally I want to give more freedom to everyone than what they ask for. But what they ask for should be known to everyone. It is very easy to be conspiracy theorist and say this is just one way information.
Even you don't have a single clue on which you can stand. All you said with certainty is that it was an independent area 75 years ago. Two to three generations have gone in between. Not sure what you and I carry in legacy from our Dada Jee.
Let us please clear our minds as well. We have a reservoir of criminal minds in Afghanistan and we are being affected.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

It is very easy to be conspiracy theorist and say this is just one way information.

You read it yourself in the article 246/7. Where is the conspiracy here?

Even you don't have a single clue on which you can stand.

It is only me who has given you all the references, and it is only you who is just negating it by chewing thin air. Find a leg to stand on Rajay and reciprocate with some substance.

All you said with certainty is that it was an independent area 75 years ago.

All I say with certainty is that they were DECLARED Independent States 75 years ago. Your Constitution still maintains that in the form of article 246/7. Now where is your point that they should not be considered independent? I also told you about the debacle of 1955 when we went into One Unit and usurped authority of these independent states. I gave you the reference of the 1994 SC Judgement, annexing PATA areas to merge them in KPK. Now where are your facts and figures to negate that?

Two to three generations have gone in between. Not sure what you and I carry in legacy from our Dada Jee.

I also posted the Tweet of Najam Sethi, revealing that this resistance is there since the past 65 years. Have you forgotten? Give me a fact that Baluch resistance is not that old?
It is not that you do not know ... it is just that you are afraid to know it and accede to the truth, because at this moment, it is not in your favor.
Whereas, I have also wrapped IK in all this. Truth is bitter my friend, but its fruits are wholesome.

Let us please clear our minds as well. We have a reservoir of criminal minds in Afghanistan and we are being affected.

Let us also clear our minds that the people who fought for AJK and who fought during the Jihad of Afghanistan were from the areas of FATA & PATA. Let us also clear our minds that a great Muslim State was engulfed by India, right the next day of Quaid's burial and our Ghairat Mand Army never made a slightest sound of condemnation, if not retalliation. Whereas, on grounds of state terrorism, India intervened in Bangladesh and divided our whole nation into two. Let us also clear our minds that these are recoded facts of the history and cannot be negated just by making statements out of thin air. They need equivalent, if not more convincing facts for a syllogistic analysis and meaningful deduction.

 

[RajaRawal111]

You read it yourself in the article 246/7. Where is the conspiracy here?


It is only me who has given you all the references, and it is only you who is just negating it by chewing thin air. Find a leg to stand on Rajay and reciprocate with some substance.

All I say with certainty is that they were DECLARED Independent States 75 years ago. Your Constitution still maintains that in the form of article 246/7. Now where is your point that they should not be considered independent? I also told you about the debacle of 1955 when we went into One Unit and usurped authority of these independent states. I gave you the reference of the 1994 SC Judgement, annexing PATA areas to merge them in KPK. Now where are your facts and figures to negate that?

I also posted the Tweet of Najam Sethi, revealing that this resistance is there since the past 65 years. Have you forgotten? Give me a fact that Baluch resistance is not that old?
It is not that you do not know ... it is just that you are afraid to know it and accede to the truth, because at this moment, it is not in your favor.
Whereas, I have also wrapped IK in all this. Truth is bitter my friend, but its fruits are wholesome.

Let us also clear our minds that the people who fought for AJK and who fought during the Jihad of Afghanistan were from the areas of FATA & PATA. Let us also clear our minds that a great Muslim State was engulfed by India, right the next day of Quaid's burial and our Ghairat Mand Army never made a slightest sound of condemnation, if not retalliation. Whereas, on grounds of state terrorism, India intervened in Bangladesh and divided our whole nation into two. Let us also clear our minds that these are recoded facts of the history and cannot be negated just by making statements out of thin air. They need equivalent, if not more convincing facts for a syllogistic analysis and meaningful deduction.

I do not negate anything you are saying. But you are over-saying the same thing without understanding my point. I am looking for a solution that we can implement rather than making لسی of history.

Okay let me rephrase it with the question.

As of today in 2024 - what do they want? What sort of independence are they asking for? (per your opinion - which is blocked by the one-way flow of information).

List the tangible, and administratively implementable points that we can give them. I will proceed after your list.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

I do not negate anything you are saying. But you are over-saying the same thing without understanding my point. I am looking for a solution that we can implement rather than making لسی of history.

Okay let me rephrase it with the question.

As of today in 2024 - what do they want? What sort of independence are they asking for? (per your opinion - which is blocked by the one-way flow of information).

List the tangible, and administratively implementable points that we can give them. I will proceed after your list.

What is there you cannot understand? If you do not know the history, then it is not my problem.

Implement 246/7 in its true letter and spirit.
Else, stop blaming India for abrogation of article 370.
We are dealing with Baluchistan as India is dealing with Kashmir. Period.

 

[RajaRawal111]

What is there you cannot understand? If you do not know the history, then it is not my problem.

Implement 246/7 in its true letter and spirit.
Else, stop blaming India for abrogation of article 370.
We are dealing with Baluchistan as India is dealing with Kashmir. Period.

You found safety in running away Paa Jee.
کوئی گل نہیں

 

[Sohail Shuja]

You found safety in running away Paa Jee.
کوئی گل نہیں

Gave you the most precise answer in a nutshell, what you were looking for. Saving you the hassle of reading too much.
BTW, I am still here. Educate me with some material in support of your ideas.