Was It The Messengers Job To Explain The Quran?

[Citizen X]

The traditional claim is that it was the messengers job to bring and explain the Quran to us hence hadith are his explanations of the Quran so without the hadith we cannot understand the Quran. And when Allah says the prophet recited the book and hikmah, hikmah refers to his Like in verses 2:219 2:151 3:164 62:2

Now where is the word "explain" in these verses? Tafsir, Bayan, Fasar examples of Arabic words that mean explain. They are no where to be seen in these verses? So where does the notion or idea come from that the Prophet is the one who has to do the explaining?

Well then the traditionalists say that the Quran says وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ (Yuällimu-humu)/Teach them the book. Well teach doesn't mean explain. Teach is making something known to you, a process to help someone learn something over a period of time, ( granted in the broader sense it may include explanations, demonstrations, examples and so on) and that's what the Prophet did, teach the Quran over time as it was revealed to him.

Explain means to make something clear and understandable, usually a one time process explaining helping someone understand a specific point. Like I can explain to someone how to use his mobile properly or its functions.

So there is clear difference between teaching and explaining, hence two different words.

Lets go to verses 75:17 to 19

﴾ 17 ﴿ "Indeed , upon Us is its collection and its reading .
﴾ 18 ﴿ "So when We read it , then follow its reading .
﴾ 19 ﴿ "Then indeed , upon Us is its explanation ."

So Allah is telling us, it is upon him to explain the Quran and not the Messenger. Then what is the Messenger's job?

5:67 O you Messenger , convey what has been revealed to you from your LORD, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed HIS message , but GOD will protect you from the people. Indeed, GOD does not guide the disbelieving people.

So the Messenger's job is to deliver the message and if he does not, than he has not done his job.

So then who will explain it? When it is being read, we have to follow the reading and if we do, Allah will provide you with its clarification as it is said in the previously quoted three verses.

So what about the Hadith? Did the prophet leave behind a book called the hadith of the prophet we are not aware of? Is there any evidence the Prophet saying this the hadith of the Prophet or this book is the hadith of the Prophet? What does hadith even mean? In the most simplest terms, sayings or words. So lets refer back to the Quran to what it says

52:34 - Then let them produce a statement/words/saying/hadith like it, if they should be truthful.

So Allah is challenging everybody, can you bring words/sayings/statements like the Quran? Obviously no one can.

So then which one the best hadith we should follow?

39:23 - ˹It is˺ Allah ˹Who˺ has sent down the best hadith/words/sayings/statements—a Book of perfect consistency and repeated lessons—which causes the skin of those who fear their Lord to tremble, then their skin and hearts soften at the mention of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah, through which He guides whoever He wills. But whoever Allah leaves to stray will be left with no guide.

So Allah has brought down the best and perfect hadith/words/sayings/statements which is his guidance.
So what choice are we left with, follow the best hadith of Allah of which there is no doubt or highly controversial, full of doubt, no way to even prove them alleged hadith of the prophet?

Its obvious to wise ones.

Then of course the traditionalists we come back with, what about all the times Allah says obey God and Obey the Prophet! First of Allah never says in the Quran obey the Prophet, its always The Messenger.

3.31 : Say : "If you should love GOD , then follow me , GOD will love you and forgive you your sins . For GOD is Forgiving and Merciful .”

Starts with SAY, meaning Allah is telling the messenger to perform his duty of "conveying the message" to us and tell us "If you should love GOD, follow me" We all love God, this is something we can all agree with as Muslims. And now the messenger has brought us his hadith/words, his Quran. So if we love God, we automatically have to follow his words, so automatically I also have to follow the messenger, so if I follow the messenger, what will God do to me? God will love me and forgive me my sins.

In the very next verse Allah says

3:32 Say : "Obey GOD and the Messenger ," but if they turn away , then indeed, GOD does not like the disbelievers.

So the answer is pretty obvious. If we love God we have to follow the Messenger and what is the duty of the messenger we have already seen that. To convey what has been revealed to him.

For all those people who want to turn follow the messenger as follow the prophets sunnah/hadith or the kitab and hikmah as the Quran and the sunnah/hadith. This verse is for them

10:82. And GOD will enforce the truth with HIS words , even if the criminals dislike it .

So let Allah speak for himself, do not try to insert or replace Allah's words with your own words and meaning.

If Allah wanted us to follow the sunnah of the Prophet there would be clear and unambiguous verses to do so. After all Allah says it is a clear and detailed book. And Allah would have made sure to protect these said hadith so there would be no doubt.

 

[Wake up Pak]

The Messenger's role was to deliver Allah's message, which is the Quran—no more and no less. This is why, whenever a verse instructs to obey Allah and the Messenger, you won’t see phrases like "Obey Muhammad" or "Obey the Nabi." The message is innately linked to the Messenger.

 

[Wake up Pak]

69:40] This (Quran) is the utterance of an honorable messenger. [69:41] Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe. [69:42] Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed. [69:43] A revelation from the Lord of the universe. [69:44] Had he uttered any other teachings? [69:45] We would have punished him. [69:46] We would have stopped the revelations to him. [69:47] None of you could have helped him.

[17:73] They almost diverted you from the revelations we have given you. They wanted you to fabricate something else in order to consider you a friend. [17:74] If it were not that we strengthened you, you almost leaned towards them just a little bit. [17:75] Had you done that, we would have doubled the retribution for you in this life, and after death, and you would have found no one to help you against us.

 

[observer-x]

The traditional claim is that it was the messengers job to bring and explain the Quran to us hence hadith are his explanations of the Quran so without the hadith we cannot understand the Quran. And when Allah says the prophet recited the book and hikmah, hikmah refers to his Like in verses 2:219 2:151 3:164 62:2

Now where is the word "explain" in these verses? Tafsir, Bayan, Fasar examples of Arabic words that mean explain. They are no where to be seen in these verses? So where does the notion or idea come from that the Prophet is the one who has to do the explaining?

Well then the traditionalists say that the Quran says وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ (Yuällimu-humu)/Teach them the book. Well teach doesn't mean explain. Teach is making something known to you, a process to help someone learn something over a period of time, ( granted in the broader sense it may include explanations, demonstrations, examples and so on) and that's what the Prophet did, teach the Quran over time as it was revealed to him.

Explain means to make something clear and understandable, usually a one time process explaining helping someone understand a specific point. Like I can explain to someone how to use his mobile properly or its functions.

So there is clear difference between teaching and explaining, hence two different words.

Lets go to verses 75:17 to 19

﴾ 17 ﴿ "Indeed , upon Us is its collection and its reading .
﴾ 18 ﴿ "So when We read it , then follow its reading .
﴾ 19 ﴿ "Then indeed , upon Us is its explanation ."

So Allah is telling us, it is upon him to explain the Quran and not the Messenger. Then what is the Messenger's job?

5:67 O you Messenger , convey what has been revealed to you from your LORD, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed HIS message , but GOD will protect you from the people. Indeed, GOD does not guide the disbelieving people.

So the Messenger's job is to deliver the message and if he does not, than he has not done his job.

So then who will explain it? When it is being read, we have to follow the reading and if we do, Allah will provide you with its clarification as it is said in the previously quoted three verses.

So what about the Hadith? Did the prophet leave behind a book called the hadith of the prophet we are not aware of? Is there any evidence the Prophet saying this the hadith of the Prophet or this book is the hadith of the Prophet? What does hadith even mean? In the most simplest terms, sayings or words. So lets refer back to the Quran to what it says

52:34 - Then let them produce a statement/words/saying/hadith like it, if they should be truthful.

So Allah is challenging everybody, can you bring words/sayings/statements like the Quran? Obviously no one can.

So then which one the best hadith we should follow?

39:23 - ˹It is˺ Allah ˹Who˺ has sent down the best hadith/words/sayings/statements—a Book of perfect consistency and repeated lessons—which causes the skin of those who fear their Lord to tremble, then their skin and hearts soften at the mention of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah, through which He guides whoever He wills. But whoever Allah leaves to stray will be left with no guide.

So Allah has brought down the best and perfect hadith/words/sayings/statements which is his guidance.
So what choice are we left with, follow the best hadith of Allah of which there is no doubt or highly controversial, full of doubt, no way to even prove them alleged hadith of the prophet?

Its obvious to wise ones.

Then of course the traditionalists we come back with, what about all the times Allah says obey God and Obey the Prophet! First of Allah never says in the Quran obey the Prophet, its always The Messenger.

3.31 : Say : "If you should love GOD , then follow me , GOD will love you and forgive you your sins . For GOD is Forgiving and Merciful .”

Starts with SAY, meaning Allah is telling the messenger to perform his duty of "conveying the message" to us and tell us "If you should love GOD, follow me" We all love God, this is something we can all agree with as Muslims. And now the messenger has brought us his hadith/words, his Quran. So if we love God, we automatically have to follow his words, so automatically I also have to follow the messenger, so if I follow the messenger, what will God do to me? God will love me and forgive me my sins.

In the very next verse Allah says

3:32 Say : "Obey GOD and the Messenger ," but if they turn away , then indeed, GOD does not like the disbelievers.

So the answer is pretty obvious. If we love God we have to follow the Messenger and what is the duty of the messenger we have already seen that. To convey what has been revealed to him.

For all those people who want to turn follow the messenger as follow the prophets sunnah/hadith or the kitab and hikmah as the Quran and the sunnah/hadith. This verse is for them

10:82. And GOD will enforce the truth with HIS words , even if the criminals dislike it .

So let Allah speak for himself, do not try to insert or replace Allah's words with your own words and meaning.

If Allah wanted us to follow the sunnah of the Prophet there would be clear and unambiguous verses to do so. After all Allah says it is a clear and detailed book. And Allah would have made sure to protect these said hadith so there would be no doubt.

Why bother with this post when Parwezi religion tells you to sit on your ass and do nothing.

 

[ProPakistanii]

The traditional claim is that it was the messengers job to bring and explain the Quran to us hence hadith are his explanations of the Quran so without the hadith we cannot understand the Quran. And when Allah says the prophet recited the book and hikmah, hikmah refers to his Like in verses 2:219 2:151 3:164 62:2

Now where is the word "explain" in these verses? Tafsir, Bayan, Fasar examples of Arabic words that mean explain. They are no where to be seen in these verses? So where does the notion or idea come from that the Prophet is the one who has to do the explaining?

Well then the traditionalists say that the Quran says وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ (Yuällimu-humu)/Teach them the book. Well teach doesn't mean explain. Teach is making something known to you, a process to help someone learn something over a period of time, ( granted in the broader sense it may include explanations, demonstrations, examples and so on) and that's what the Prophet did, teach the Quran over time as it was revealed to him.

Explain means to make something clear and understandable, usually a one time process explaining helping someone understand a specific point. Like I can explain to someone how to use his mobile properly or its functions.

So there is clear difference between teaching and explaining, hence two different words.

Lets go to verses 75:17 to 19

﴾ 17 ﴿ "Indeed , upon Us is its collection and its reading .
﴾ 18 ﴿ "So when We read it , then follow its reading .
﴾ 19 ﴿ "Then indeed , upon Us is its explanation ."

So Allah is telling us, it is upon him to explain the Quran and not the Messenger. Then what is the Messenger's job?

5:67 O you Messenger , convey what has been revealed to you from your LORD, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed HIS message , but GOD will protect you from the people. Indeed, GOD does not guide the disbelieving people.

So the Messenger's job is to deliver the message and if he does not, than he has not done his job.

So then who will explain it? When it is being read, we have to follow the reading and if we do, Allah will provide you with its clarification as it is said in the previously quoted three verses.

So what about the Hadith? Did the prophet leave behind a book called the hadith of the prophet we are not aware of? Is there any evidence the Prophet saying this the hadith of the Prophet or this book is the hadith of the Prophet? What does hadith even mean? In the most simplest terms, sayings or words. So lets refer back to the Quran to what it says

52:34 - Then let them produce a statement/words/saying/hadith like it, if they should be truthful.

So Allah is challenging everybody, can you bring words/sayings/statements like the Quran? Obviously no one can.

So then which one the best hadith we should follow?

39:23 - ˹It is˺ Allah ˹Who˺ has sent down the best hadith/words/sayings/statements—a Book of perfect consistency and repeated lessons—which causes the skin of those who fear their Lord to tremble, then their skin and hearts soften at the mention of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah, through which He guides whoever He wills. But whoever Allah leaves to stray will be left with no guide.

So Allah has brought down the best and perfect hadith/words/sayings/statements which is his guidance.
So what choice are we left with, follow the best hadith of Allah of which there is no doubt or highly controversial, full of doubt, no way to even prove them alleged hadith of the prophet?

Its obvious to wise ones.

Then of course the traditionalists we come back with, what about all the times Allah says obey God and Obey the Prophet! First of Allah never says in the Quran obey the Prophet, its always The Messenger.

3.31 : Say : "If you should love GOD , then follow me , GOD will love you and forgive you your sins . For GOD is Forgiving and Merciful .”

Starts with SAY, meaning Allah is telling the messenger to perform his duty of "conveying the message" to us and tell us "If you should love GOD, follow me" We all love God, this is something we can all agree with as Muslims. And now the messenger has brought us his hadith/words, his Quran. So if we love God, we automatically have to follow his words, so automatically I also have to follow the messenger, so if I follow the messenger, what will God do to me? God will love me and forgive me my sins.

In the very next verse Allah says

3:32 Say : "Obey GOD and the Messenger ," but if they turn away , then indeed, GOD does not like the disbelievers.

So the answer is pretty obvious. If we love God we have to follow the Messenger and what is the duty of the messenger we have already seen that. To convey what has been revealed to him.

For all those people who want to turn follow the messenger as follow the prophets sunnah/hadith or the kitab and hikmah as the Quran and the sunnah/hadith. This verse is for them

10:82. And GOD will enforce the truth with HIS words , even if the criminals dislike it .

So let Allah speak for himself, do not try to insert or replace Allah's words with your own words and meaning.

If Allah wanted us to follow the sunnah of the Prophet there would be clear and unambiguous verses to do so. After all Allah says it is a clear and detailed book. And Allah would have made sure to protect these said hadith so there would be no doubt.

---

1. Clarifying the Meaning of "Teach" and "Explain"​

You argued that teaching (تعليم) and explaining (بيان) are distinct processes. However, in practical and linguistic contexts, teaching inherently involves explanation. The Quran itself implies the Prophet's explanatory role clearly:

16:44: "And We revealed to you the message (dhikr), so that you may make clear (لِتُبَيِّنَ) to people what was sent down to them and perhaps they will reflect."

This verse explicitly uses the word "لِتُبَيِّنَ" (litubayyina), which unequivocally means "to make clear" or "explain." Thus, the Quran itself explicitly assigns the Prophet the duty of clarification and explanation, contradicting the idea that he merely delivered words without explanatory authority.

---

2. Understanding the Term "Hikmah"​

Your argument stated that the term "hikmah" (wisdom) doesn't explicitly indicate the Prophet’s Sunnah or explanations. However, "hikmah" has been traditionally and widely understood as referring to the Sunnah and the teachings of the Prophet (peace be upon him). The Quran explicitly distinguishes between "Kitab" and "Hikmah":

33:34: "...And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom (الحكمة)."

The companions and the early generations, unanimously or near-unanimously, understood "hikmah" as meaning the Prophet's Sunnah. To discard this historical consensus is to dismiss the interpretations of those who learned directly from the Prophet and were explicitly guided by him.

---

3. Verse 75:19 and the Divine Explanation​

You cited verse 75:19 ("Then indeed, upon Us is its explanation") as evidence that explanation belongs solely to Allah. This, however, does not exclude the Messenger's role; rather, it underscores divine guidance in the explanation the Prophet delivered. Divine explanation comes through revelation and prophetic teaching. It does not negate prophetic explanation—it validates it, as the Prophet's teaching and explanation were divinely inspired and authorized.

---

4. The Command to Obey the Messenger​

You mentioned verses that command obedience to the Messenger, but suggested that obedience only involves obeying the Quran. However, the Quran explicitly differentiates between obedience to Allah and the Messenger separately:

• 4:59: "O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you..."
• 4:80: "He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah."

The clear linguistic emphasis here implies that the Prophet’s commands and explanations extend beyond simply reciting Quranic verses. Otherwise, the separate emphasis would be redundant.

---

5. Protection and Preservation of Sunnah​

Your argument raised doubts regarding the authenticity and preservation of hadith. While human efforts might introduce some doubt, rigorous historical-critical methodologies have meticulously filtered hadith literature. Early Muslims systematically distinguished authentic narrations from weak ones. The preservation of the Sunnah occurred through widespread communal and scholarly consensus, which Allah facilitated through the intellectual and spiritual dedication of the community of believers.


Moreover, the Quran indicates the Messenger's explanatory and instructive role, and by extension, logically, there would be a divinely preserved methodology of understanding these explanations—this is precisely what the authenticated Sunnah represents.

---

6. The "Best Hadith" Argument​

You pointed to verses emphasizing the Quran as "the best hadith." But contextually, the Quran contrasting itself with fabricated human discourse does not invalidate authentic prophetic explanations. The verse 39:23 highlights the divine source and supreme quality of Quranic revelation against falsehood, not authentic prophetic guidance. Authentic hadith complement rather than compete with the Quran; they clarify practical applications and contexts that the Quran briefly mentions but doesn't elaborate on.

---

7. Necessity of Prophetic Explanation​

Without the Sunnah, many Quranic verses remain ambiguous or incomplete in practice, such as details of prayer, zakat, fasting, pilgrimage, or judicial rulings. The Prophet’s Sunnah provides essential clarifications explicitly authorized by Allah (Quran 16:44).

---

Conclusion​

The Quran itself explicitly assigns the Prophet a role beyond mere delivery—it charges him with teaching, clarifying, and explaining. Historical evidence, linguistic clarity, and the practical needs of religious implementation strongly validate the necessity of prophetic explanations (Sunnah) preserved in authentic hadith. Rejecting prophetic explanation on linguistic subtleties alone or due to interpretative skepticism contradicts both Quranic explicitness and historical Islamic understanding established by the Prophet’s direct companions.

Credits: chatgpt 4.5

 

[Citizen X]

---

1. Clarifying the Meaning of "Teach" and "Explain"​

You argued that teaching (تعليم) and explaining (بيان) are distinct processes. However, in practical and linguistic contexts, teaching inherently involves explanation. The Quran itself implies the Prophet's explanatory role clearly:




This verse explicitly uses the word "لِتُبَيِّنَ" (litubayyina), which unequivocally means "to make clear" or "explain." Thus, the Quran itself explicitly assigns the Prophet the duty of clarification and explanation, contradicting the idea that he merely delivered words without explanatory authority.

---

2. Understanding the Term "Hikmah"​

Your argument stated that the term "hikmah" (wisdom) doesn't explicitly indicate the Prophet’s Sunnah or explanations. However, "hikmah" has been traditionally and widely understood as referring to the Sunnah and the teachings of the Prophet (peace be upon him). The Quran explicitly distinguishes between "Kitab" and "Hikmah":




The companions and the early generations, unanimously or near-unanimously, understood "hikmah" as meaning the Prophet's Sunnah. To discard this historical consensus is to dismiss the interpretations of those who learned directly from the Prophet and were explicitly guided by him.

---

3. Verse 75:19 and the Divine Explanation​

You cited verse 75:19 ("Then indeed, upon Us is its explanation") as evidence that explanation belongs solely to Allah. This, however, does not exclude the Messenger's role; rather, it underscores divine guidance in the explanation the Prophet delivered. Divine explanation comes through revelation and prophetic teaching. It does not negate prophetic explanation—it validates it, as the Prophet's teaching and explanation were divinely inspired and authorized.

---

4. The Command to Obey the Messenger​

You mentioned verses that command obedience to the Messenger, but suggested that obedience only involves obeying the Quran. However, the Quran explicitly differentiates between obedience to Allah and the Messenger separately:

• 4:59: "O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you..."
• 4:80: "He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah."

The clear linguistic emphasis here implies that the Prophet’s commands and explanations extend beyond simply reciting Quranic verses. Otherwise, the separate emphasis would be redundant.

---

5. Protection and Preservation of Sunnah​

Your argument raised doubts regarding the authenticity and preservation of hadith. While human efforts might introduce some doubt, rigorous historical-critical methodologies have meticulously filtered hadith literature. Early Muslims systematically distinguished authentic narrations from weak ones. The preservation of the Sunnah occurred through widespread communal and scholarly consensus, which Allah facilitated through the intellectual and spiritual dedication of the community of believers.


Moreover, the Quran indicates the Messenger's explanatory and instructive role, and by extension, logically, there would be a divinely preserved methodology of understanding these explanations—this is precisely what the authenticated Sunnah represents.

---

6. The "Best Hadith" Argument​

You pointed to verses emphasizing the Quran as "the best hadith." But contextually, the Quran contrasting itself with fabricated human discourse does not invalidate authentic prophetic explanations. The verse 39:23 highlights the divine source and supreme quality of Quranic revelation against falsehood, not authentic prophetic guidance. Authentic hadith complement rather than compete with the Quran; they clarify practical applications and contexts that the Quran briefly mentions but doesn't elaborate on.

---

7. Necessity of Prophetic Explanation​

Without the Sunnah, many Quranic verses remain ambiguous or incomplete in practice, such as details of prayer, zakat, fasting, pilgrimage, or judicial rulings. The Prophet’s Sunnah provides essential clarifications explicitly authorized by Allah (Quran 16:44).

---

Conclusion​

The Quran itself explicitly assigns the Prophet a role beyond mere delivery—it charges him with teaching, clarifying, and explaining. Historical evidence, linguistic clarity, and the practical needs of religious implementation strongly validate the necessity of prophetic explanations (Sunnah) preserved in authentic hadith. Rejecting prophetic explanation on linguistic subtleties alone or due to interpretative skepticism contradicts both Quranic explicitness and historical Islamic understanding established by the Prophet’s direct companions.

Credits: chatgpt 4.5

Yeah just straight away cut and paste from chat GPT is seriously disingenuous. I could do the same and then you would repeat the same, eventually whats the point, let ChatGPT just argue with itself then. And then no one learns anything or any ideas get shared.

Anyways
1. No verse reference is given so one can check the context.

2. Already explained in many different ways in many threads including this. What is traditionally been understood from it, we don't care, like I said in my post, let God speak with his own words, do not try to speak for him. Hikmah is guidance and if Allah wanted it to mean something else he would have said so.

3. God is clear in what he said, yet you have to add a BUT, God says this and this BUT. There is no BUT in he said what he said. As mention in the previous post let God speak for himself with his own words, there is no BUT does not exclude the Messenger's role etc etc.

4. The different roles Muhammad had been given as a Messenger and Prophet have been explained already. There is no conflating the two.

5,6 : Just hadithist apologetics simply by saying "authentic sayings" and "rigorous methodologies" doesn't make it so, just scratching the surface shows what a mess these "authentic sayings" and "rigorous methodologies" are, as demonstrated in a look in my previous two threads looking into Sahih Bukhari, where we have just looked at the "rigorous methodologies" for its preservation and some examples of the "authentic sayings". We haven't looked at Bukhari the man himself and how he was known for tadlis and how it is humanly possible to say the claims he made to be possible etc etc

7.Even from a traditionalist perspective, hadith does not bring any of that. Not one man has ever learnt to do any of those from reading hadith. It is mostly tradition that is passed on from generation to generation

Also will not reply in future to any AI generated replies. If you can't bother to be honest enough to read and reply then I couldn't be bothered either.

 

[Wake up Pak]

These people can not reply from the Quranic verses, so as to protect their inflated ego, they resort to ChatGPT to post a lot of irrelevant material to suit their false narrative of Ahadith as a tool to understand the Quran.

 

[Citizen X]

These people can not reply from the Quranic verses, so as to protect their inflated ego, they resort to ChatGPT to post a lot of irrelevant material to suit their false narrative of Ahadith as a tool to understand the Quran.

They cannot reply themselves because they don't have the knowledge. They have never really read or understood the Quran, know almost next to nothing about hadith. They just know they have to blindly defend it because of their programming, indoctrination and brainwashing and because it unravels their sectarian hadith based religion.

I have had "arguments" with chatGPT and it will just dish out replies based on sources from the internet and since majority are pro hadith site, its answers will also be pro hadith. Unless you really interrogate it with fine details it will just give you what it thinks you want to hear answers as in pro majority.

As an exercise just ask it about hadith and see the answer it will give you. But then get down to specifics and then see the answers totally change. Like ask it are the hadith authentic sayings of the Prophet and see the very pro hadith answer it will come out it, but then start peeling the onion only then you see the actual answers come out, even then there will be BUT so and so . Then you really have to fine tune it. Does this this this happen, limit your reply only to ABC source and don't use any external sources.

 

[ProPakistanii]

Yeah just straight away cut and paste from chat GPT is seriously disingenuous. I could do the same and then you would repeat the same, eventually whats the point, let ChatGPT just argue with itself then. And then no one learns anything or any ideas get shared.

Anyways
1. No verse reference is given so one can check the context.

2. Already explained in many different ways in many threads including this. What is traditionally been understood from it, we don't care, like I said in my post, let God speak with his own words, do not try to speak for him. Hikmah is guidance and if Allah wanted it to mean something else he would have said so.

3. God is clear in what he said, yet you have to add a BUT, God says this and this BUT. There is no BUT in he said what he said. As mention in the previous post let God speak for himself with his own words, there is no BUT does not exclude the Messenger's role etc etc.

4. The different roles Muhammad had been given as a Messenger and Prophet have been explained already. There is no conflating the two.

5,6 : Just hadithist apologetics simply by saying "authentic sayings" and "rigorous methodologies" doesn't make it so, just scratching the surface shows what a mess these "authentic sayings" and "rigorous methodologies" are, as demonstrated in a look in my previous two threads looking into Sahih Bukhari, where we have just looked at the "rigorous methodologies" for its preservation and some examples of the "authentic sayings". We haven't looked at Bukhari the man himself and how he was known for tadlis and how it is humanly possible to say the claims he made to be possible etc etc

7.Even from a traditionalist perspective, hadith does not bring any of that. Not one man has ever learnt to do any of those from reading hadith. It is mostly tradition that is passed on from generation to generation

Also will not reply in future to any AI generated replies. If you can't bother to be honest enough to read and reply then I couldn't be bothered either.

1: 16:44 given. Check again.

 

[Citizen X]

1: 16:44 given. Check again.

Ah yes, putting it into context it cannot mean explain but rather make clear or evident particularly talking about the Dhikr here, making clear and explaining once again are two different things.

 

[ProPakistanii]

Ah yes, putting it into context it cannot mean explain but rather make clear or evident particularly talking about the Dhikr here, making clear and explaining once again are two different things.

So the prophet was wrong to explain Quran to the people?

 

[Wake up Pak]

So the prophet was wrong to explain Quran to the people?

How did he explain the Quran?

 

[Citizen X]

So the prophet was wrong to explain Quran to the people?

Classic example of a strawman fallacy. This is what happens when you sub contract your critical thinking to ChatGPT.

 

[Citizen X]

The Quran doesn't need any explanation, it is a very straight forward book, lets look at the ayat ProPakistanii ChatGPT quoted for him. and coincidentally it is a very good ayat for this example. And parts which someone can't instantly understand the Quran explains them to you.

16:44 With proofs and scriptures. And We have revealed to you the Dhikr that you may clarify to the people what was revealed to them perhaps they will ponder .

What proof and scriptures the Quran is talking about here? For that we need to look at 35:25

35;25 And if they deny you, then those before them had already denied. Their messengers brought them proofs, scriptures and the enlightening book.

So Allah is talking about the previous proofs and scriptures that the previous Prophets had brought.

And what is this Dhikr its talking about in 16:44. To understand that lets go to 38:1

38:1 By the Koran containing the dhikr

So now we know what is the dhikr and where can it be found.

The more you read the Quran the more clearer it becomes, so literally explaining itself and as 75:17 to 19 says.

 

[ProPakistanii]

Classic example of a strawman fallacy. This is what happens when you sub contract your critical thinking to ChatGPT.

I just don't have time for your crap bro. That's why i resorted to chatgpt. In the end I've no problem with your beliefs. We shall find out i the day of judgment who was right and wrong.

 

[Citizen X]

I just don't have time for your crap bro.

What you really mean is you don't have the knowledge to formulate a rebuttal but you want to, so had to resort to chatGPT

 

[jigrot]

The traditional claim is that it was the messengers job to bring and explain the Quran to us hence hadith are his explanations of the Quran so without the hadith we cannot understand the Quran. And when Allah says the prophet recited the book and hikmah, hikmah refers to his Like in verses 2:219 2:151 3:164 62:2

Now where is the word "explain" in these verses? Tafsir, Bayan, Fasar examples of Arabic words that mean explain. They are no where to be seen in these verses? So where does the notion or idea come from that the Prophet is the one who has to do the explaining?

Well then the traditionalists say that the Quran says وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ (Yuällimu-humu)/Teach them the book. Well teach doesn't mean explain. Teach is making something known to you, a process to help someone learn something over a period of time, ( granted in the broader sense it may include explanations, demonstrations, examples and so on) and that's what the Prophet did, teach the Quran over time as it was revealed to him.

Explain means to make something clear and understandable, usually a one time process explaining helping someone understand a specific point. Like I can explain to someone how to use his mobile properly or its functions.

So there is clear difference between teaching and explaining, hence two different words.

Lets go to verses 75:17 to 19

﴾ 17 ﴿ "Indeed , upon Us is its collection and its reading .
﴾ 18 ﴿ "So when We read it , then follow its reading .
﴾ 19 ﴿ "Then indeed , upon Us is its explanation ."

So Allah is telling us, it is upon him to explain the Quran and not the Messenger. Then what is the Messenger's job?

5:67 O you Messenger , convey what has been revealed to you from your LORD, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed HIS message , but GOD will protect you from the people. Indeed, GOD does not guide the disbelieving people.

So the Messenger's job is to deliver the message and if he does not, than he has not done his job.

So then who will explain it? When it is being read, we have to follow the reading and if we do, Allah will provide you with its clarification as it is said in the previously quoted three verses.

So what about the Hadith? Did the prophet leave behind a book called the hadith of the prophet we are not aware of? Is there any evidence the Prophet saying this the hadith of the Prophet or this book is the hadith of the Prophet? What does hadith even mean? In the most simplest terms, sayings or words. So lets refer back to the Quran to what it says

52:34 - Then let them produce a statement/words/saying/hadith like it, if they should be truthful.

So Allah is challenging everybody, can you bring words/sayings/statements like the Quran? Obviously no one can.

So then which one the best hadith we should follow?

39:23 - ˹It is˺ Allah ˹Who˺ has sent down the best hadith/words/sayings/statements—a Book of perfect consistency and repeated lessons—which causes the skin of those who fear their Lord to tremble, then their skin and hearts soften at the mention of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah, through which He guides whoever He wills. But whoever Allah leaves to stray will be left with no guide.

So Allah has brought down the best and perfect hadith/words/sayings/statements which is his guidance.
So what choice are we left with, follow the best hadith of Allah of which there is no doubt or highly controversial, full of doubt, no way to even prove them alleged hadith of the prophet?

Its obvious to wise ones.

Then of course the traditionalists we come back with, what about all the times Allah says obey God and Obey the Prophet! First of Allah never says in the Quran obey the Prophet, its always The Messenger.

3.31 : Say : "If you should love GOD , then follow me , GOD will love you and forgive you your sins . For GOD is Forgiving and Merciful .”

Starts with SAY, meaning Allah is telling the messenger to perform his duty of "conveying the message" to us and tell us "If you should love GOD, follow me" We all love God, this is something we can all agree with as Muslims. And now the messenger has brought us his hadith/words, his Quran. So if we love God, we automatically have to follow his words, so automatically I also have to follow the messenger, so if I follow the messenger, what will God do to me? God will love me and forgive me my sins.

In the very next verse Allah says

3:32 Say : "Obey GOD and the Messenger ," but if they turn away , then indeed, GOD does not like the disbelievers.

So the answer is pretty obvious. If we love God we have to follow the Messenger and what is the duty of the messenger we have already seen that. To convey what has been revealed to him.

For all those people who want to turn follow the messenger as follow the prophets sunnah/hadith or the kitab and hikmah as the Quran and the sunnah/hadith. This verse is for them

10:82. And GOD will enforce the truth with HIS words , even if the criminals dislike it .

So let Allah speak for himself, do not try to insert or replace Allah's words with your own words and meaning.

If Allah wanted us to follow the sunnah of the Prophet there would be clear and unambiguous verses to do so. After all Allah says it is a clear and detailed book. And Allah would have made sure to protect these said hadith so there would be no doubt.

Your interpretation of Islam significantly differs from the teachings and beliefs held by the majority of Muslims. Mainstream Islam, whether Sunni, Shia, or other traditional schools, accepts, both the Qur’an and the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) as essential sources of guidance. By denying the role of Hadith and the Prophet’s explanations, you're presenting a version of Islam that is not in line with the faith as practiced and understood for over 1400 years.

 

[jigrot]

Why bother with this post when Parwezi religion tells you to sit on your ass and do nothing.

Your interpretation of Islam significantly differs from the teachings and beliefs held by the majority of Muslims. Mainstream Islam, whether Sunni, Shia, or other traditional schools, accepts both the Qur’an and the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) as essential sources of guidance. By denying the role of Hadith and the Prophet’s explanations, you're presenting a version of Islam that is not in line with the faith as practiced and understood for over 1400 years.

 

[jigrot]

These people can not reply from the Quranic verses, so as to protect their inflated ego, they resort to ChatGPT to post a lot of irrelevant material to suit their false narrative of Ahadith as a tool to understand the Quran.

Your interpretation of Islam significantly differs from the teachings and beliefs held by the majority of Muslims. Mainstream Islam, whether Sunni, Shia, or other traditional schools, accepts both the Qur’an and the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) as essential sources of guidance. By denying the role of Hadith and the Prophet’s explanations, you're presenting a version of Islam that is not in line with the faith as practiced and understood for over 1400 years.

 

[jigrot]

I just don't have time for your crap bro. That's why i resorted to chatgpt. In the end I've no problem with your beliefs. We shall find out i the day of judgment who was right and wrong.

Their job is to create division, Their interpretation of Islam significantly differs from the teachings and beliefs held by the majority of Muslims. Mainstream Islam, whether Sunni, Shia, or other traditional schools, accepts both the Qur’an and the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) as essential sources of guidance. By denying the role of Hadith and the Prophet’s explanations, They are presenting a version of Islam that is not in line with the faith as practiced and understood for over 1400 years.