Hadith rejectors eventually end up being Quran rejectors.

Islamabadiya

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I know about this verse, but wrong translation of the word Ibaada.
Even if I accept it as Ibaada, can you give me another verse that the Namaz, fasting, and Hajj are meant to worship Allah?

so what do you think this verse says? you are saying that :
Indeed, I am Allah. There is no god except Me, so worship Me
should be read differently for its last part ( so worship Me) ?

what you think is the last part of this ayya
 

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
so what do you think this verse says? you are saying that :
Indeed, I am Allah. There is no god except Me, so worship Me
should be read differently for its last part ( so worship Me) ?

what you think is the last part of this ayya
Even if I accept it as Ibaada, can you give me another verse that the Namaz, fasting, and Hajj are meant to worship Allah?
 

Islamabadiya

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Even if I accept it as Ibaada, can you give me another verse that the Namaz, fasting, and Hajj are meant to worship Allah?

sorry man we are debating here whether Allah wants us to worship Him or not, arent we?
i laready told you few times that i am no expert so wont be good of to me give you references

its just that when you said no worship for Allah and you also believe in Quran is very shocking for me
 

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
sorry man we are debating here whether Allah wants us to worship Him or not, arent we?
i laready told you few times that i am no expert so wont be goof of to me give you references

its just that when you said no worship for Allah and you also believe in Quran is very shocking for me
Here I ask you one more time, even if I accept it as Ibaada, can you give me another verse that the Namaz, fasting, and Hajj are meant to worship Allah?
 

Islamabadiya

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Here I ask you one more time, even if I accept it as Ibaada, can you give me another verse that the Namaz, fasting, and Hajj are meant to worship Allah?

If it isn’t then what is ?
What the worship of Allah for Muslims ? How are Muslims supposed to worship ?
 

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
If it isn’t then what is ?
What the worship of Allah for Muslims ? How are Muslims supposed to worship ?
Oh brother, I said that I accept it.
Can you give me another verse that the Namaz, fasting, and Hajj are meant to worship Allah?
 

Islamabadiya

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Oh brother, I said that I accept it.
Can you give me another verse that the Namaz, fasting, and Hajj are meant to worship Allah?

Shouldn’t you ask this to more knowledgeable?
Let’s just say that you are right and these are not correct Ibadaaats, then which ones are correct ?
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Hadith literature was compiled 200+ years after the Prophet’s death, and includes contradictions and fabrications.
Question is IF hadith was so important, then why didn't the Sahaba immediately set to task of preserving it while it was still fresh in their memories and why is it his closet companions have narrated the least amount of hadith. And the person who hardly knew him and stayed with him for a very short amount of time, a person whose real name is also not know has narrated the most amount of hadith on which majority of hadithisi Islam is based on, the deen of Abu Hurairah and not the deen of Allah.

Infact I can link you an article post of mine which gives historical as well reference from the hadith itself that the Prophet himself and the Khulafa Rashidun were strictly against collecting and writing down hadith

Why was it that after the first 10-15 generations of Muslims had passed away only then these Imams from Persia (because none of the writers of the sahih sitta are Arabs and all Iranis) Who gave these Iranis the authority to write down hadith?

  • At the same time, the preservation of Hadith came through human effort, not divine protection, and hence critical scholarship is needed — not blind acceptance, but not blind rejection either.

I beg to differ, the majority of the so called scholars say you have to follow them blindly. I just posted a short clip in the other thread of one such scholar out right calling anyone who even questions hadith as a Kafir

  1. Do not disconnect from the legacy of the Prophet ﷺ. While you may reject weak narrations, complete dismissal of all Hadith may lead to a distorted or incomplete understanding of Islam.

Unlike majority of the people from both sides I have read a LOT of hadith, including all 9 volumes of Sahih Bukahri, the most sacred book after the Quran to the sunnis. There is no Islam or deen in them. AT BEST they are a vague record of early Islamic history which should be taken with a huge grain of salt because there is SO MUCH nonsense and blasphemous stuff in there as well, which these mullah do a great job of hiding from the people, if such hadith were repeated publicly you would think they are taken from some Islamophobe anti Islamic source. And yet this just is still printing and labeled as "Sahih"

  1. Study Hadith scientifically, not emotionally. Learn how scholars classify, verify, and interpret Hadith, rather than relying only on online influencers or social media rhetoric.

I have and I can tell you, that YOU yourself will not buy an old washing machine for even a $50 if you came to know about it through the same method that these muhadithsun use to classify and authenticate hadith. So how can you base your entire duniya, deen and akhira on them?

Avoid making sweeping statements like "Hadith followers are misguided" or "they follow fabricated books" — this leads to unnecessary hostility.

Hmmmmmmm.... but you see, these are nothing but proven facts. But I usually never start with the insults and labels, majority of the times when eventually they all get painted into a corner, then the abuses start to come thick and fast.


  1. Acknowledge that not all Hadith are equal. The science of Hadith itself teaches that some narrations are weak, fabricated, or contradictory.

Question is then why they are still being printed to this very day, this very hour, this very minute. In "sahih" hadith books and classified as "sahih"
Pick up the freshest of copy of Sahih Bukhari you can and it will tell you that the Prophet married Aisha at 6 yrs of age and underneath its labels as Sahih.

P.S : According to the so called hadith sciences and standard set by the their own muhadithsun. All of the Sahih books of the Sahih Sitta including Bukhari cannot be classified as Sahih/Authentic.
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
we (traditional)muslims believe that we need Sunna of Prophet Muhammad PBUH to understand the Quran followed by ijmah etc, there is a complete chain on how to reach a conclusion about understanding, starting from Sunnah and hadith
First of I am only unblocking you for this thread as it might help you and might save your soul.

Second I fixed the we muslim part in your thread

Third there is absolute no proof other than what the mullahs have told you that you need the "sunnah of the prophet" to understand the Quran. No where does the Quran say this, the Quran explains itself. It needs no one!

Fourth, there is no such thing as ijma, this is just some made up BS of the moulvis to justify their nonsense. If you read the Quran, when ever the Quran talks about the majority, its always in a negative manner or sense. And what Ijma is there between these sectarians anyways? These sectarians still cannot come to an ijma on how to and where to keep their hands in their namaz, let alone anything else

Your own detailes or short explanations in simple words will have a better chance of convincing others

Let me assist you here, what all you have mentioned, the Quran is void of it, there is no mention of such a thing as the five pillars of Islam. I challenge you to find me that phrase or something even close to it from the Quran. Hell forget that find that phrase which traditional Muslims utter night and day. Allah hu Akbar. Guess what that is also NOT in the Quran, the closet you will get is Allah hu Kabeer.

So lets look at this rationally. Namaz the one thing that is drilled into our head night and day, that you can pretty much do anything but as long as you keep up with Salah you will be ok and end up in heaven. Some "scholars" going as far as saying that a rapist and murderer who prays namaz is better than a good person who does good deeds but misses one salah. The most important pillar of Islam, something if you abandon for a particular timeframe you are out of the fold of Islam. The thing Angels will come in the grave and ask you and torture you if you didn't pray, then on the day of Judgement, the first thing Allah will ask you is about this namaz. So pretty important right. Seems like it!

Only one problem though. The Almighty, The All Knowing, The Hakeem forgot to tell us how do perform this oh so important ritual, forget about performing it he even forgot to tell us how many times a day and what to call them. And if you're thinking thank god, these Irani mullahs ( bukhari, Tirmizi, Hanbal etc etc ) remembered 200 years later that oh crap we need to tell Muslims how to do this daily namaz and wrote it down in the hadith. THEN you would be wrong again. Because in the entire corpus of the hadith you cannot find one single hadith where this daily namaz is mentioned in detail and step by step, on what to do, what to recite, what position to take from the takbir to the salam. NOT ONE!

SO now what is a person to do? Allah forgot ( Nauzubillah ) how to perform this most important pillar of Islam and now these Irani hadith collecting Imams have let us down? So what shall we do!!!!

we perform namaz the way we do is because we believe that this is the way it has to be done passed on to us via hadith and scholars' interpretation of Allah's Orders

As mentioned earlier not Allah's orders nor in the hadith. You learned how to do namaz from either your parents, dada, dadi or qari saab And they learnt it the same way themselves too. I've put a simple challenge out for many years now which remained unfulfilled. That out of the billion plus Muslims, find me one, JUST ONE. Who learnt how to do your namaz from reading the hadith. Pretty simple challenge isn't it.

if i didnt post any hadith doesnt mean such hadits or Quranic interpretations dont exist
Well if they did, 1001% you would have posted it. Don't take it in a negative way but 99.9% of people who come here to defend hadith tooth and nail haven't actually read any hadith, if any at all! They all believe that such hadith exist, because they have been told that, when in reality they don't. Now don't go googling and get me some hadith just to prove a point in which one part of your namaz might have been mentioned. Dabbu heard from Bablu heard from Ibn Dhimkan that he heard from Ibn Fulan that he saw the Prophet standing for prayers while it was raining and he was smiling. ( If you haven't read any hadith before, this is how they are "narrated" and nobody knows who babul, dabu or Ibn Dhimkan is??? But we are to believe what these people allegedly heard and saw)

Challenge is to find conclusive hadith detailing the namaz.

afterall its you disagreeing with billions of people's belief

6:116 If you were to obey most of those on earth, they would lead you away from Allah’s Way. They follow nothing but assumptions and do nothing but lie

And all of the above pretty much applies to all of the imaginary so called 5 pillars of Islam. Your Zakat, Your Hajj, Your Roza, Your namaz and your Sahada.
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم

*** For all the hadith/ sunnah rejectors out there, prove the title is wrong. ***
You know you've already lost when you bring this literal criminal thug ape to prove your point 😂 😂 😂

This Hijab BC and his goons actually attacked a Pakistani Mufti's house when he was not home, broke into his house, terrorized his wife and younf daughter, broke windows and doors and damaged his car.

These are the action of these "Model Muslim Oxford Scholars"

Fuck Hijab's ugly gorilla face and his ilk.
 

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
JazakAllah for your thoughtful reply once again.

I do understand where you're coming from — particularly the distinction you’ve drawn between da’wah to non-Muslims versus addressing those whom you believe have knowingly deviated from core Islamic beliefs (such as Hadith deniers or Qadiyanis). Your view reflects the concern of many traditional scholars who fear the deliberate misguidance of the Muslim masses under the guise of "reform."

However, I would respectfully add that not all those who fall into these groups do so out of conscious rebellion or malice.
Do any of the hadith deniers here publicly putting out individual clips belong to this category?
Some may have:
  • Lost trust in religious institutions due to hypocrisy or corruption.
  • Encountered cherry-picked Hadith or cultural distortions being passed as Islam.
  • Been exposed to internet “scholarship” and lack the tools to critically analyze it.
  • Simply born into this deviated "sect".
Even the Sunnah itself teaches us to assess each person individually. The Prophet ﷺ reached out even to the munafiqeen with mercy — not because he agreed with them, but because he never closed the door on anyone.
Let me ask you this, did Prophet SAW deal with Musailma Kazzab on individual basis and was he patient with him the way he was with the polytheists of Makkah? The answer is no and that is why the army was sent to take him down. Why? coz he knew the dangers of misguided preaching which was based on first, denial of the core of Islam and second, making influencing masses in following the misguidance.

So perhaps the solution is a dual approach:
  • Firm refutation of harmful ideologies in public,
  • But also gentle outreach to individuals who might be salvageable through hikmah and character.
I may be wrong in my approach, but I feel this might be the right way to approach things. Being a muslim, we must always show compassion and mercy toward others. May Allah guide us all and unite us on the truth with sincerity and humility. Ameen.
You approach is passive, and when you're in a forum you don't get a chance to be 1-1 with these people. They're using forums as the loudspeakers.
 

observer-x

Councller (250+ posts)
You know you've already lost when you bring this literal criminal thug ape to prove your point 😂 😂 😂

This Hijab BC and his goons actually attacked a Pakistani Mufti's house when he was not home, broke into his house, terrorized his wife and younf daughter, broke windows and doors and damaged his car.

These are the action of these "Model Muslim Oxford Scholars"

Fuck Hijab's ugly gorilla face and his ilk.
Going ad hominem proves you have no answer. Parwezi ideology goes 👎. Mic drop moment. 🤣
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Do any of the hadith deniers here publicly putting out individual clips belong to this category?

Let me ask you this, did Prophet SAW deal with Musailma Kazzab on individual basis and was he patient with him the way he was with the polytheists of Makkah? The answer is no and that is why the army was sent to take him down. Why? coz he knew the dangers of misguided preaching which was based on first, denial of the core of Islam and second, making influencing masses in following the misguidance.


You approach is passive, and when you're in a forum you don't get a chance to be 1-1 with these people. They're using forums as the loudspeakers.
you-serious-are-you-serious.gif
 

wasiqjaved

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Do any of the hadith deniers here publicly putting out individual clips belong to this category?

Let me ask you this, did Prophet SAW deal with Musailma Kazzab on individual basis and was he patient with him the way he was with the polytheists of Makkah? The answer is no and that is why the army was sent to take him down. Why? coz he knew the dangers of misguided preaching which was based on first, denial of the core of Islam and second, making influencing masses in following the misguidance.


You approach is passive, and when you're in a forum you don't get a chance to be 1-1 with these people. They're using forums as the loudspeakers.
JazakAllah khair for for your in-depth analysis — it’s a discussion that’s not just about ideology but about responsibility, and I genuinely respect your commitment to preserving the truth.

📌 On Your First Point:​


"Do any of the Hadith deniers here publicly putting out individual clips belong to this category?"
You’re right — when individuals actively spread anti-Sunnah or anti-Hadith content in public, especially with arrogance or mockery, it’s not the same as someone quietly questioning or doubting. These cases require public counter-narratives, and I fully support firm intellectual rebuttal when it comes to misleading the ummah.

But I also believe not every viewer of those clips is beyond reach. There are young Muslims who stumble across these ideas and get drawn in. Our tone matters, not for the sake of the preacher, but for the hearts of those listening.



📌 On Musaylima al-Kazzab:​

Yes, Rasulullah ﷺ and the sahaba did not tolerate Musaylima, but let's remember:
  • He claimed prophethood,
  • Had a military and political rebellion,
  • And split the Muslim Ummah after the Prophet’s ﷺ death.
That's not the same as someone denying the authority of Hadith — a grave mistake, yes, but not equivalent to false prophethood and armed rebellion. Let's be careful not to overextend analogies.

Even then, Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه sent an army after exhausting attempts at unification. Today, our tools are words, not swords, and our battlefield is the internet, not Yamama.



📌 On Forums Being Loudspeakers:​

You’re absolutely right again — forums like this amplify voices. That’s why I agree that refutation must be firm, informed, and public. But how we refute still matters.

If we refute with:
  • Knowledge → it educates.
  • Character → it inspires.
  • Mockery or rage → it alienates.
My “dual approach” isn’t passive — it’s just tactical. Like Ali رضي الله عنه said:

"Hearts are like wild animals — if you try to capture them too harshly, they flee."
We must shut down falsehood — no doubt. But we should never shut the door of da’wah to those who might one day return, even if they’re loud today.


At the end of the day, we both seek to defend the Deen. We just differ slightly on the methods. Humility doesn’t weaken your message — it amplifies it. When Muslims approach others with dignity and sincerity, even hearts like that of Joram van Klaveren — once a far-right Dutch politician opposed to Islam — can open to the truth. His journey to Islam didn’t begin with condemnation, but with respectful dialogue and introspection.


May Allah purify our intentions, sharpen our strategies, and protect the Ummah from misguidance — internal and external.

Wassalam.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Islam is not a religion at all because it is the God advised purpose based proper way of life, rule of law and governing system for mankind to live and abide by. This is why no matter how anyone interprets the quranic text it creates conflicts between the quranic statements themselves as well as between the quranic statements and the self evident facts about the real world realities unless and until the quranic text is interpreted in purpose based proper context of way of life, rule of law and governing system.

Before anyone could get involved in any discussions about islam one has to become aware about the fact that islam is just a name given to something by God which he has explained in all necessary detail and that explanation needs to be understood by people purposefully properly so that people could come to know what actual islam is.

Let me try and explain this with an example. Suppose we human beings come across something about which we know nothing at all. How are we going to make sense of it? Only and only by studying it in all necessary detail. This detail will have to be such that makes sense. Talking nonsense about it will not be of any help regardless this nonsense comes from majority or minority. It is because nonsense is nonsense at the end of the day.

People say we need unity or majority but why or for what? There has to be some common useful purpose that suits unity or majority otherwise there cannot come about unity or majority. It is because people who claim to be muslims have no sense of direction therefore they almost all talk nonsense all the time. They have no sense why they are arguing about islam be it for it or against it.

If islam is taken as a religion then it is merely a system of dogmatic nonsense beliefs and useless time wasting ritual practices which do not have any positive effect on real world realities for the benefit of humanity instead it wastes time of people in different ways taking them away from what they actually need to do for living their lives. That is because human beings have needs to meet if they want to live on.

For example, we need fresh and clean air to breathe. This means we need to gain education, training and skills about planting trees etc so that we could have clean atmosphere and environment.

We need fresh and clean water to drink. This means we need to gain all the education, training and skills for that purpose.

We need fresh and clean healthy food to eat so we need all the education, training and skills to be able to provide that for ourselves.

All this cannot be left to uneducated, untrained and unskilled individuals or we will get no needed air, water and food that we need in order to survive.

This is why we need to unite for organising and regulating ourselves and that is why we need a way of life, a rule of law and a governing system for ourselves so that we could decide our rights and responsibilities and distribute them between ourselves to meet our own needs. This is why islam cannot be something mullahs tell us.

This is why we cannot unite for baseless dogmatic beliefs and useless ritual practices or we cannot even survive at all without having things we need. This is why anyone who talks nonsense about the quran and islam is not and cannot be a purpose based proper muslim according to the quran.

This is why I am against mullah interpretations of the quran and their nonsense they call islam. They are either foolish or enemies of God and humanity.

This is why people must work very, very hard to prepare themselves purposefully properly for seeking, receiving, studying, accepting and acting upon purpose based proper guidance of Allah for mankind purposefully properly so that then they could bring about and maintain a purpose based proper human community in his kingdom for their own blissful, dignified and secure existence with help and full support of each other by complementing each other purposefully properly. This is why they have no choice but to work for the purpose of unity, peace, progress and prosperity of mankind. This is the right interpretation of the quranic text for these like reasons and all other interpretations of the quran are false. This is the correct definition of quranic islam.

People like javed ghamdi, Zakir naik, Shabbier ally, Yasir qadhi, Qaiser ahmed raja, Khalid abbasi, Sahil adeem, Shuja uddin sheikh, Yasir nadeem wajdi, Uthman inb farooq, Muhammad hijab, Ali dawah, Mansur, Noman ali khan, muhammad ali mirza etc etc etc. All need to learn the quranic message purposefully properly to know the purpose based proper islam. This is absolutely necessary for the revival of muslim ummah from whatever is left of it. It is because they are all nonsense talkers about the quran and islam. Some more than the others.
 
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Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Islam, as we know and see it today, is not at all what is envisioned in the Quran.
The Quran is not about empty religious rituals, and Islam is not a religion in the ordinary sense of the word. Islam is a Deen (or a way of life sanctioned by the one God).
observer-x
 

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