Lets respond our friend Pakpatriot1
- Thread starter PakPatriot1
- Start date
PakPatriot1
Senator (1k+ posts)
Ali:
Agreed.
But you have a great patience that I lack. Yes, I am busy these days more than usual.
Let's pray for everyone of us that Allah give us courage and peace to understand the real prolems.
Agreed.
But you have a great patience that I lack. Yes, I am busy these days more than usual.
Let's pray for everyone of us that Allah give us courage and peace to understand the real prolems.
A
abbasiali
Guest
Inshaalah AmeenPakPatriot1 said:
I was wondering, why you have start lacking your patience, you were and still I believe you are a person, having full control on our patience.
abbasiali said:
I always say our forefathers made Pakistan, that means all four provices (East Pakistan) and those who sacrificed to come o Pakistan. But like GeoG I have a serious problem when every good in Pakistan is Muhajir and every evil and bad is others. You know other means us Punjabis, Balouch, Pathan and Sindhis.
Everytime you talk to MQM supporter whether this forum or anywhere it us i.e Muhajir and the rest of evil |Pakistan. |Now how do you expect me or GeoG to respond.
GeoG
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
@Abbasi Bhai
Although majority of readers subscribe to our line of thought as their responses show but we are not MQM to co-ordinate with each other for making certain posts and colluding on some agenda. So I cant present others with similar school of thought. If some reader did feel to participate, they will out of their choice but that does not mean that there is no one out there with similar school of thought on these issues.
Time and again PakPartiot1 has claimed exclusive right for the inception and creation of Pakistan which is not only exaggeration but misconception. They may have suffered because they travelled from various parts of India but Pakistan was created for people living in areas constituting Pakistan with support form Indian Muslims.
When Qaid e Azam, Mohammad Ali Jinnah heard that there are hundreds of thousand Muslims migrating towards Pakistan, and vice versa, he said What Non Sense. The idea was to create an independent country where majority of people are Muslims not other way round to gather all the Muslims from all over India and make a separate country.
Mohajirs have suffered, no doubt but that was out of their own choice not that Jinnah or his colleagues asked anyone to travel to Pakistan. Please forgive me for giving you an example from our painful recent history but it is like PPP followers always say that BB died for democracy, for me she died for the lust of power, not democracy. Her objective may be noble to bring democracy but her desire was power. Some people will agree with me on this one but many will differ.
Similarly Muslims decided to come to Pakistan for their personal choice and many lost their lives in the process, including some from my family.
Rest of issues of living in segregated sections forever and calling them migrants after 64 years and then justifying it with places like little China or Lahore Bazar, etc are very weak arguments.
As I said, Muslims from India came to live in a Muslim country with similar background and after sixty years there should have been no Mohajir in our country.
Point to note is this is their third/fourth generation. My great forefathers came from Ghazni but I am Punjabi because I was born in Lahore, I would have been a Sindhi if I was born in Karachi or Hyderabad. But a Mohjir born in Punjab, Sindh, Baluchistan remains a Mohajir, shame.
You have asked me to refrain from going against true concrete facts. My contention remains the same that Mohajirs do not have exclusive ownership of the inception and creation of Pakistan as claimed by our migrant brothers. It was made by the people living in boundaries of Pakistan with equal support from Muslims living all over India but no one can claim exclusivity for this achievement.
Kind Regards.
Although majority of readers subscribe to our line of thought as their responses show but we are not MQM to co-ordinate with each other for making certain posts and colluding on some agenda. So I cant present others with similar school of thought. If some reader did feel to participate, they will out of their choice but that does not mean that there is no one out there with similar school of thought on these issues.
Time and again PakPartiot1 has claimed exclusive right for the inception and creation of Pakistan which is not only exaggeration but misconception. They may have suffered because they travelled from various parts of India but Pakistan was created for people living in areas constituting Pakistan with support form Indian Muslims.
When Qaid e Azam, Mohammad Ali Jinnah heard that there are hundreds of thousand Muslims migrating towards Pakistan, and vice versa, he said What Non Sense. The idea was to create an independent country where majority of people are Muslims not other way round to gather all the Muslims from all over India and make a separate country.
Mohajirs have suffered, no doubt but that was out of their own choice not that Jinnah or his colleagues asked anyone to travel to Pakistan. Please forgive me for giving you an example from our painful recent history but it is like PPP followers always say that BB died for democracy, for me she died for the lust of power, not democracy. Her objective may be noble to bring democracy but her desire was power. Some people will agree with me on this one but many will differ.
Similarly Muslims decided to come to Pakistan for their personal choice and many lost their lives in the process, including some from my family.
Rest of issues of living in segregated sections forever and calling them migrants after 64 years and then justifying it with places like little China or Lahore Bazar, etc are very weak arguments.
As I said, Muslims from India came to live in a Muslim country with similar background and after sixty years there should have been no Mohajir in our country.
Point to note is this is their third/fourth generation. My great forefathers came from Ghazni but I am Punjabi because I was born in Lahore, I would have been a Sindhi if I was born in Karachi or Hyderabad. But a Mohjir born in Punjab, Sindh, Baluchistan remains a Mohajir, shame.
You have asked me to refrain from going against true concrete facts. My contention remains the same that Mohajirs do not have exclusive ownership of the inception and creation of Pakistan as claimed by our migrant brothers. It was made by the people living in boundaries of Pakistan with equal support from Muslims living all over India but no one can claim exclusivity for this achievement.
Kind Regards.
gazoomartian
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
abbasiali said:
So in situation of you and I, its proven that its WE that take things laying down. 99% of non-muslims are pretty open mindedspecially officals, such schools, work rest or play. BUT we are the one who has to stand up for our beliefs.....
Jabral Tariq
Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
Any one born in Pakistan and calling himself or herself as a 'moohajir' should be considered as a traitor of the country.
PakPatriot1
Senator (1k+ posts)
If Pakistan was made by muslim majority provinces and those muslims who were in minority in other provinces had no right to settle in this new country as per Quad-e-Azam said. (I don't know when and where he said so). It means the two nation theory of Allama Iqbal was false.
AngrazoN ke Kuttey Nehlane wale or tehreek-e-azaadi mieN ghddari kerne wale aaj Jaagirdaar bene bethey heiN and Liaquat Ali Khan, Nizam Hyderabad Duccan and thousands of like them were stupids who sacrificed all their wealth and lives for this country.
In that way, look like Altaf Hussain is right that Pakistan is a Blunder (personally I don't agree with him though).
MANZIL UNHEIN MILI JO SHAREEK -E- SAFAR NA THAI.
@Mr. GazooMartian:
Please note why Altaf Hussain said so and who were his addresees.
sagaciouscorpion
MPA (400+ posts)
Interesting debate....
Though Urdu speaking...
I done like to be called Muhajir... but some people love to say "You Muhajirs" .... seems sort of insulting.. because I never migrated.... well... never mind... who cares...
My sincere advice to those who are proud so called "sons of soil"....
Dont treat us like we re not Pakistanis...
Do you think we should choose NOON or JI or peoples Party above MQM?
What do they have to their credit??? Corruption, Extremism, Opportunism?????
At least MQM did something for the city...
Patriot....
There is a saying....
Never argue with ignorant people.....
They will bring you down to your level...
and then beat you with their experience....
Though Urdu speaking...
I done like to be called Muhajir... but some people love to say "You Muhajirs" .... seems sort of insulting.. because I never migrated.... well... never mind... who cares...
My sincere advice to those who are proud so called "sons of soil"....
Dont treat us like we re not Pakistanis...
Do you think we should choose NOON or JI or peoples Party above MQM?
What do they have to their credit??? Corruption, Extremism, Opportunism?????
At least MQM did something for the city...
Patriot....
There is a saying....
Never argue with ignorant people.....
They will bring you down to your level...
and then beat you with their experience....
GeoG
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
One can give any meanings to my words to satisfy personal thought process is ones own choice but I did not say that Muslims in minority provinces in India had no right to come and live in Pakistan. It was their own choice to migrate but Jinnah or other leaders at the time did not urge them to mirgrate.
Two nation theory was independent state for Muslims in Muslim majority areas not that all Muslims would be sent to East or West and that would be Pakistan, Rest India.
Muslims in minority area migrated to East and West Pakistan for their personal reasons and suffered much more than Muslims living in Muslim majority areas but Mohajirs cant claim exclusive credit for creation of Pakistan. If there was no Muslim Majority areas, there would be no Pakistan, simple.
Angrazon Ke Kuttey Nehlane wale Dono Taraf Thay, Tiwanas, Doltanas in Pakistan and Nawabs, Nizamsand Pataudis in India. Liaquat Ali Khan and Nizam Hyderabad were Nawabs but also active politicians and they migrated out of their political conviction. By default the ones in Pakistan were to remain there and they benefitted. No one could kick them out of the country.
We have thousands of examples like these in modern era. Thousands of Zamindars (not Nawabs) owned agricultural land on city borderline and cities grew their properties became 100 times more valuable in comparison with one in same position but owning a piece of land 20 miles away.
There were hundreds of Muslim Nawabs in India Jinho Nay Angrazon Kay Kuttay Nehlay. They stayed back and still own their heritage.
.
Good that finally someone has admitted that the words used in that infamous address in India is true reflection of this sick mans mental state of mind.
People like Jury always create a post that JI opposed creation of Pakistan, they sure did and Maulana Modoodi explained that the thought process behind such opposition was that Muslims were about 35 percent of total population, other minorities about 5 percent who got along better with Muslims than Hindus. Muslim population growth rate was almost double than Hindu counterparts and in 50 years time Muslims were to outnumber Hindus. But Quaid e Azam school of thought prevailed and JI gave in.
But Altaf Hussain words have questioned the creation of Pakistan itself and as his party and followers always try to defend his words, so MQM stance on creation and existence of Pakistan is very clear to me.
.
If one keeps thinking that we created Pakistan and others are living in it, may be that kind of Pakistan was created at Mars, not our Pakistan, so keep your twisted mind happy with the above words.
We, the Muslims in Pakistan, made Pakistan with assistance from Muslims in India and we are ones we found our Manzil. It is a sad fact that some of our Muslim brothers could not make it (including my own family) but we will take Full Credit for creation of Pakistan and will acknowledge that Muslims in India took part in this movement and now most of them are living successful life in Pakistan.
Get Real, borrowing words from Sobia "Love it or LEAVE it"
GeoG
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Please Don't think that I am copying MQM supporters that on every thread you must compliment each other.
But GREAT Replies FlyHigh, very good answers.
I do hope that our brothers will receive this message with open mind.
Sagaciouscorpion Brother,
I agree that some people like to say, You Mohajir that is a situational fact. If I am in a minority in Pashtuns friends , they would say, You Punjabi... I do understand that there is 60 years of bitterness but time has come to overcome it.
But GREAT Replies FlyHigh, very good answers.
I do hope that our brothers will receive this message with open mind.
Sagaciouscorpion Brother,
I agree that some people like to say, You Mohajir that is a situational fact. If I am in a minority in Pashtuns friends , they would say, You Punjabi... I do understand that there is 60 years of bitterness but time has come to overcome it.
PakPatriot1
Senator (1k+ posts)
GeoG said:
So, what is your response to your Pushtun friends then? You say yourself Punjabi or Pakistani?
Don't deny, everybody knows what would be your first answer to them. i.e. "YES I AM PUNJABI".
This is the reality based on human nature. No one can go against the nature.
The same case applies on us. First you label us as MUHAJIRS and when we accept it, you start abusing us and telling us you are GHADDARS because you say yourselves MUHAJIRS.
Why double standards you guys have?
You know what? Your inner hate against us will never eliminate. You people will keep bringing new issues everyday against us.
I don't know why I am invloved in this rubbish discussion. Looks like we MQM and MUHAJIR people are the biggest criminals in this land and every morning we have to clarify ourselves from new allegations that are being put on us all the time.
We explain and clear one false allegation on us then you guys bring another. Even when you don't have a new one you start over from the first one and come back to square one.
It seems this vicious circle will never end. I should leave you guys on your own. if you are happy to abuse us, do it, you choice.
BUT in this dirty exercise, mind it, you are not serving to Pakistan, you are just digging its root
GeoG
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
PakPatriot1 said:
PakPatriot1 said:
As you have not responded on any of the response on your questions, so I suppose your concerns are addressed. Just assuming but please do respond, if you disagree on any of these responses. It is important for us that you acknowledge that Muslims Migrants from India have no exclusivity on creation of Pakistan because that has always been the basis of all your arguments.
PakPatriot1 said:
Honestly, I laugh at it and say some words I cant repeat and we are buddies again. I dont wait for the time to take revenge for this remark.
PakPatriot1 said:
You are the one who created the thread for replies and now you are saying why you are involved in rubbish discussion.
You have been using MQM and Mohajirs as absolute inclusive components and real problem lies here.
MQM is a political party and have claimed sole rights for Migrants. People will keep underscoring this point for their political gains. But more importantly whatever blunders MQM makes, and these are in abundance, people will keep pointing their fingers at Muhajirs instead of MQM.
Is there another choice, yes, but you are the ones to make these seemingly difficult choices but your community will surely be better off in long run. The vicious circle will end.
PakPatriot1 said:
This is a fact that Sindhis, Punjabis, Pashtuns and Baluchis, all do not get along very well with but you need to take account and ask this question to yourself. No one creates issues against you, MQM is quite capable of doing it for themselves.
PakPatriot1 said:
I agree that debates like these sometimes result in more hate and acrimony. This would certainly be true on other threads where exchanges are rude and below the belt and I am one of the culprit.
But I have always read your responses and you try to convince with some logic. Unfortunately the best of lawyers can advocate a bad cause to a certain point. You definitely have been a good advocate, time to change the cause, I suppose. Dont just run away, you have a duty and you owe it to your birthplace.
Firstly let me say this is a very lively discussion ,and while i do not know the actual topic of discussion i do feel compelled to write a few things. Let me begin by saying i am pure pakistani not living abroad with no other national identity or passport other than pakistani lol thats not to say that every pakistani living abroad isnt pur pakistani i was just clarifying a point. I have lived abroad for a good amount of time while my dad was working for the government ,9 years in china and 3 years in australia. So having lived abroad i have lived with migrant pakistanis , 2nd and 3rd generation migrant pakistanis and those who have married outside the pakistani society aswell.
I think the "Pakistani" factor for most pakistanis living abroad depends alot on parenting and the pakistani circile around you. If your a second generation pakistani and your parents were all desi and stuff then u will still consider your self pakistani no matter what others say because the influence is so strong. If how ever ur parents circle was mostly composed of locals then the second and third generation will progressively loose the pakistani factor. It is very hard for kids not to be influenced by their friends at school and uni. I know second generation pakistanis that eat pakistani food, their parents wear pakistani clothes , yet they do not speak more than a few words of urdu and are ashamed to termed as pakistanis. But then the 3rd generation is often sometimes more pakistani then the second generation because alot of pakis in the west marry people from back home and the circle starts all over again. This is why i feel the majority still remain pakistani to some extent whether it be second or third or 4rth generation migrants. Theres also that question of hey your not white where are u from to remind you where ur really from lol.
Now coming to the question of whether its okay for mohajirs to call them selves muhajir ,i think they have every right to do so. The rest of pakistan identifies itself to be pathan , sindhi , punjabi balochi so i think it would be unfair of us to ask the mujahirs to loose the word mohajir. I have met people abroad that are only too proud to tell me what zaat they belong to and while i think its really shit to classify and judge people based on zaat it is done even in the educated and 2nd generation pakistanis living abroad so we cannot expect the 4rth 5th generation mohajirs to stop calling themselves mohajir. This is the beautify of pakistan we are all different yet we get along so well on a people to people level, minus the dictators and the choors we have for politicians and beaurucrats. I my self am not sure what i am because my dad never really had the time to tell me, i do know my mum is kashmiri but even that i was told by my cousins not my parents. So i think us being the 3rd of 4rd generation pakis mostly ,have a great duty to our kids and pakistan by not spoiling their brains with useless zaat crap.
I also heard some talk of sacrificing alot for pakistan, and it is true the mohajirs mayb to some extent want to retain that word to highlight the massive scarifices they made trying to get to pakistan but let us not try to win arguments on the blood of the fallen. The mohajirs did make alot of sacrifices and were and integral part of the creation of pakistan. So lets not try to belittle anyones scarifices by trying to win arguments. All our forefathers did alot for pakistan, the aligarh movement and thanks to Sir syed Ahmed who was one of founding fathers of pakistan who gave us most of pakistans brains and intelectuals of the newly created pakistan, the sindhis who accepted the mohajirs as equals by offering them land and many other things. Our forefathers never fought over who was mohajir and who was punjabi, they knew they were all muslims and thats why they were living together. The Aga Khan himself said in his 'Memoirs' (London, 1954, p. 36) that: 'We may claim with pride that Aligarh was the product of our own efforts and of no outside benevolence and surely it may also be claimed that the independent sovereign nation of Pakistan was born in the Muslim University of Aligarh.'So you have every right to call yourself mohajir if it makes you a proud pakistani, and this does not mean im saying other non mohajirs lost less of sacrificed less. We have all lost alot in the russian war, we lost alot for kashmir. So i dont think pakipatriot was trying to say suggest that mohajirs lost more he was just speaking in general with out trying to belittle anyones sacrifices.Sacrificing for you country and people is a never end process and we will need to loose plenty more lives to keep pakistan safe and prosperous.
People some times attack MQM not because it comprises mostly of mohajirs but because its MQM. MQM is a wonderful idea ,educated middle class folk working for the country and for a better future, but it still resorts to violence and terror and killings. This why i am against them and also because i hate mustafa kamal despite what hes done for karachi haha. Anyone who shouts at a woman is no damn leader i dont care how many gutters he fixes.
Nehoo getting long now, bye guys , god bless
I think the "Pakistani" factor for most pakistanis living abroad depends alot on parenting and the pakistani circile around you. If your a second generation pakistani and your parents were all desi and stuff then u will still consider your self pakistani no matter what others say because the influence is so strong. If how ever ur parents circle was mostly composed of locals then the second and third generation will progressively loose the pakistani factor. It is very hard for kids not to be influenced by their friends at school and uni. I know second generation pakistanis that eat pakistani food, their parents wear pakistani clothes , yet they do not speak more than a few words of urdu and are ashamed to termed as pakistanis. But then the 3rd generation is often sometimes more pakistani then the second generation because alot of pakis in the west marry people from back home and the circle starts all over again. This is why i feel the majority still remain pakistani to some extent whether it be second or third or 4rth generation migrants. Theres also that question of hey your not white where are u from to remind you where ur really from lol.
Now coming to the question of whether its okay for mohajirs to call them selves muhajir ,i think they have every right to do so. The rest of pakistan identifies itself to be pathan , sindhi , punjabi balochi so i think it would be unfair of us to ask the mujahirs to loose the word mohajir. I have met people abroad that are only too proud to tell me what zaat they belong to and while i think its really shit to classify and judge people based on zaat it is done even in the educated and 2nd generation pakistanis living abroad so we cannot expect the 4rth 5th generation mohajirs to stop calling themselves mohajir. This is the beautify of pakistan we are all different yet we get along so well on a people to people level, minus the dictators and the choors we have for politicians and beaurucrats. I my self am not sure what i am because my dad never really had the time to tell me, i do know my mum is kashmiri but even that i was told by my cousins not my parents. So i think us being the 3rd of 4rd generation pakis mostly ,have a great duty to our kids and pakistan by not spoiling their brains with useless zaat crap.
I also heard some talk of sacrificing alot for pakistan, and it is true the mohajirs mayb to some extent want to retain that word to highlight the massive scarifices they made trying to get to pakistan but let us not try to win arguments on the blood of the fallen. The mohajirs did make alot of sacrifices and were and integral part of the creation of pakistan. So lets not try to belittle anyones scarifices by trying to win arguments. All our forefathers did alot for pakistan, the aligarh movement and thanks to Sir syed Ahmed who was one of founding fathers of pakistan who gave us most of pakistans brains and intelectuals of the newly created pakistan, the sindhis who accepted the mohajirs as equals by offering them land and many other things. Our forefathers never fought over who was mohajir and who was punjabi, they knew they were all muslims and thats why they were living together. The Aga Khan himself said in his 'Memoirs' (London, 1954, p. 36) that: 'We may claim with pride that Aligarh was the product of our own efforts and of no outside benevolence and surely it may also be claimed that the independent sovereign nation of Pakistan was born in the Muslim University of Aligarh.'So you have every right to call yourself mohajir if it makes you a proud pakistani, and this does not mean im saying other non mohajirs lost less of sacrificed less. We have all lost alot in the russian war, we lost alot for kashmir. So i dont think pakipatriot was trying to say suggest that mohajirs lost more he was just speaking in general with out trying to belittle anyones sacrifices.Sacrificing for you country and people is a never end process and we will need to loose plenty more lives to keep pakistan safe and prosperous.
People some times attack MQM not because it comprises mostly of mohajirs but because its MQM. MQM is a wonderful idea ,educated middle class folk working for the country and for a better future, but it still resorts to violence and terror and killings. This why i am against them and also because i hate mustafa kamal despite what hes done for karachi haha. Anyone who shouts at a woman is no damn leader i dont care how many gutters he fixes.
Nehoo getting long now, bye guys , god bless
sagaciouscorpion
MPA (400+ posts)
[/quote]FlyHigh said:
Ignorance is not the lack of degree.... and a degree doesnt proves that u are not ignorant....
sagaciouscorpion
MPA (400+ posts)
flyhigh...
Ok... Language First....
Do you think there could have been any other language except Urdu which could be national language of Pakistan?
Dont people in Punjab speak Punjabi? Have they left speaking Punjabi?
Same goes with Pushtu, Baluchi and all the other languages in Pakistan....
Nobody has left their language....as you said earlier...
Our country was created on some common grounds... if you remove the commonalities... we loose the purpose of existence...
Loving ones language and culture is not bad...and its not something to be ashamed of...
but it should not be a means of discriminating people....
I am an academic... My personal thinking is that instead of teaching Pakistan studies in schools, there should have been a subject called "languages of Pakistan" and at least two languages other than the mother tongue should be taught to increase harmony and decrease communication gap between the people... Keeping Urdu as the major bridge....
What do you have to say???
Ok... Language First....
Do you think there could have been any other language except Urdu which could be national language of Pakistan?
Dont people in Punjab speak Punjabi? Have they left speaking Punjabi?
Same goes with Pushtu, Baluchi and all the other languages in Pakistan....
Nobody has left their language....as you said earlier...
Our country was created on some common grounds... if you remove the commonalities... we loose the purpose of existence...
Loving ones language and culture is not bad...and its not something to be ashamed of...
but it should not be a means of discriminating people....
I am an academic... My personal thinking is that instead of teaching Pakistan studies in schools, there should have been a subject called "languages of Pakistan" and at least two languages other than the mother tongue should be taught to increase harmony and decrease communication gap between the people... Keeping Urdu as the major bridge....
What do you have to say???
