Open Challenge to SAFMA to prove Quaid-e-Azam secular!

[Humi]

Well that is the point that the westerners understood before everyone else that state should be separated from religion and that only can ensure equality among all its people and that is only way the nation can prosper. Look where they are now......

I suggest you look where the west is heading..

My job is so hectic I dont have time to spend with my pregnant wife...but i am successful...
I am using this economic system so when markets crash my whole life savings are worthless...but i am successful...
The government is letting the companies put harmful substances in packaged food for some odd reason that I cannot understand..but I am successful
The diabetes and cancer rates has increased tremendously in the last two decades...but i am successful...
Big companies get bailed out first because heaven forbid, they have low profits...but i am successful..
My children are leaving me in old age homes..but i am successful..
I havent seen my dad who left my mom in a few months..but I am successful..
More and more parents are throwing young children out of homes but I am successfull..

should i carry on the with this list?

 

[desicad]

I suggest you look where the west is heading..

My job is so hectic I dont have time to spend with my pregnant wife...but i am successful...
I am using this economic system so when markets crash my whole life savings are worthless...but i am successful...
The government is letting the companies put harmful substances in packaged food for some odd reason that I cannot understand..but I am successful
The diabetes and cancer rates has increased tremendously in the last two decades...but i am successful...
Big companies get bailed out first because heaven forbid, they have low profits...but i am successful..
My children are leaving me in old age homes..but i am successful..
I havent seen my dad who left my mom in a few months..but I am successful..
More and more parents are throwing young children out of homes but I am successfull..

should i carry on the with this list?

Well you can if you want to........:)
You have turned this debate 180 deg. by bringing social issues instead of staying political.....
All these issues are there in other societies also and moreover people like you are dying to be part of the western societies despite all the ills you mentioned.....there are those never ending queues......:lol:

 

[Mughal1]

Sorry to say that you have made the mockery of the above speech by jinnah with your explanation.
Having said that I am not saying that he was secular because there are other speeches as I mentioned earlier which totally contradicts this speech.

Dear desicad, would you mind explaining what you are trying to say? Are you telling me jinnah had no personal conviction of any sort regarding islam? Or was he not aware of mullaism and how it causes problems? Or was he not aware of animosity that rose throughout the land after people began killing each other? Jinnah had a lot of things to pay attention to so it would be silly to leave them out and try to isolate a few words on their own. I have various things in my mind when I writing but I assume others may know them already.

After creation of pakistan next big thing was to implement islam as was his understanding but the islam that mullaism spread was not an easy thing to win over. Therefore the while things were to be worked out he just took over the governmental structure, system and practice and laws that were inherited. Even now muslims are most mazhabi than deeni. So we have not yet reached proper understanding of islam as sir seyyed, iqbal and jinnah wanted us therefore till we do pakistan will not have proper islamic rule of law.

This in fact was taken with great sadness by alaama parwez and people like him. It was all due to same people who opposed creation of paksitan. So pakistani people are reaping the result of their foolishness for decades. Day by day country is more and more polarized between ruling elite and mullaism. Not many know what jinnah meant by islam and why he took on fight with mullaism and secularism. People are doing the very things jinnah tried to stop them from.

The only person who can sort out this mess is the one who has same point of view and is strong enough to withstand the pressures from all wrong sides.

regards and all the best.

 

[Humi]

Well you can if you want to........:)
You have turned this debate 180 deg. by bringing social issues instead of staying political.....
All these issues are there in other societies also and moreover people like you are dying to be part of the western societies despite all the ills you mentioned.....there are those never ending queues......:lol:

I am not dying for it..I plan to go back to my country in a couple of years...try to not get personal if you can help it...

lemme explain why I posted that..you said our problem was that we werent secular...lemme tell you how these social problems can be avoided if we are not secular..

hectic jobs: Islam realises that there should be a balance of things in your life...you have to spend adequate amount of time with your parents, children, friends and family..we don't have people saying, screw everything, my career is important..
economic system..Islam has a gold based currency system...and gold does not go worthless when markets crash..
harmful substances in food: everyone knows governments let that happen as these gigantic companies have money...tell me how many lawsuits have been filed and been successful in getting the government to ban these ingredients? When a very pious muslim becomes a leader, he would most likely not poison the people's food as he knows what god has in store for him if he does that..
increased rate of diseases: there are many studies that genetically modified foods and harmful substances in our food are increasing diseases and infertility..genetically modified foods arent allowed in islam
Big companies getting bailed out: Islam is for for people, not to feed the corporations
Old age homes: After God, your mother and then your father is who a muslim should obey..people who have fear of Allah in their hearts dont leave their parents alone
Divorces: people get divorced over the tiniest things that day..mostly because they are too arrogant, immature and not willing to talk on their problems and often dont care what will happen to my children..in islam, we are ordered to be very careful and try all other means of solving the issue before getting a divorce...

This is why I say why a secular system is just gonna ruin us...and a society full of Islamic set of beliefs in going to be our salvation..

 

[Mughal1]

Well you can if you want to........:)
You have turned this debate 180 deg. by bringing social issues instead of staying political.....
All these issues are there in other societies also and moreover people like you are dying to be part of the western societies despite all the ills you mentioned.....there are those never ending queues......:lol:

Dear desicad, it is the social issues that are of utmost importance for humanity or there is no need for human society. You have lot to learn yet about why islam is right and secularism is wrong. The main point is negative discrimination based upon social darwinism and zero sum game plan. I have created a thread particularly on that. You can see it on folloing link.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...AB-V-SECULARISM-Where-should-we-stand-and-why

regards and all the best

 

[desicad]

I am not dying for it..I plan to go back to my country in a couple of years...try to not get personal if you can help it...

lemme explain why I posted that..you said our problem was that we werent secular...lemme tell you how these social problems can be avoided if we are not secular..

hectic jobs: Islam realises that there should be a balance of things in your life...you have to spend adequate amount of time with your parents, children, friends and family..we don't have people saying, screw everything, my career is important..
economic system..Islam has a gold based currency system...and gold does not go worthless when markets crash..
harmful substances in food: everyone knows governments let that happen as these gigantic companies have money...tell me how many lawsuits have been filed and been successful in getting the government to ban these ingredients? When a very pious muslim becomes a leader, he would most likely not poison the people's food as he knows what god has in store for him if he does that..
increased rate of diseases: there are many studies that genetically modified foods and harmful substances in our food are increasing diseases and infertility..genetically modified foods arent allowed in islam
Big companies getting bailed out: Islam is for for people, not to feed the corporations
Old age homes: After God, your mother and then your father is who a muslim should obey..people who have fear of Allah in their hearts dont leave their parents alone
Divorces: people get divorced over the tiniest things that day..mostly because they are too arrogant, immature and not willing to talk on their problems and often dont care what will happen to my children..in islam, we are ordered to be very careful and try all other means of solving the issue before getting a divorce...

This is why I say why a secular system is just gonna ruin us...and a society full of Islamic set of beliefs in going to be our salvation..

It was not my intention of getting personal at all, am sorry if you felt that way. By saying people like you what I meant people from your country.
Now I am feeling sleepy so no more debate for now. Best of luck for islamic system in pakistan.....I already said earlier that pakistan willl never be a secular country.

 

[Humi]

It was not my intention of getting personal at all, am sorry if you felt that way. By saying people like you what I meant people from your country.
Now I am feeling sleepy so no more debate for now. Best of luck for islamic system in pakistan.....I already said earlier that pakistan willl never be a secular country.

oh ok..np..people like that exist in every country..and Thanks for wishing good luck..:)

 

[desicad]

Dear desicad, it is the social issues that are of utmost importance for humanity or there is no need for human society. You have lot to learn yet about why islam is right and secularism is wrong. The main point is negative discrimination based upon social darwinism and zero sum game plan. I have created a thread particularly on that. You can see it on folloing link.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...AB-V-SECULARISM-Where-should-we-stand-and-why

regards and all the best

Of course social issues are very important, but that has nothing to with secularism or non secularism. It is totally a different debate.

 

[desicad]

oh ok..np..people like that exist in every country..and Thanks for wishing good luck..:)

The reason I said your country is because here we were discussing secularism in context of islamic republic of pakistan.......;)

 

[Mughal1]

Well that is the point that the westerners understood before everyone else that state should be separated from religion, this only can ensure equality among all its people and that is only way for the nation to prosper. Look where they are now......

Dear desicad, church and state separation is not western idea for your information, it is imperialist idea whereby religious rule was under control of mullahs and kingdom was under control of king. This was there long before pharaoh and moses and abraham and nero.

Democracy came about when absolute imperialism collapsed along with communism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar

regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

Of course social issues are very important, but that has nothing to with secularism or non secularism. It is totally a different debate.

Dear desicad, in no way this can be a separate issue because we are talking about how the society should organise to manage itself. The structures of society, the systems of society and the practices of the society are fundamentals of the society whereby political, social, cultural and economic concerns of people are supposed to be addressed.

If overall picture is not kept in forefront of our minds then we can keep on arguing till cows come home. Only if the bigger picture is in fornt of us that we can see what works as a complete things and what does not.

This is why ruling elite and their mullahs try to keep us confused by breaking things into senseless bits and pieces so that we argue with each other senselessly the while they take full advantage of this situation.

We must not be single issue people or look on each aspect of something as separate from its whole or we are doomed. We must look at overall picture and see clearly whether something as a complete thing benefits us or harms us as a community and then conclude.

regards and all the best.

 

[adnan_younus]

tats the catch 22 situation.. u said islamic govt; teh ulemas have concensus including israr ahmed that taliban has the best islamic system in current world if not perfect very close.... so if u want khilafa.. first make yr self appear accorsding to muslim guidelines then aply it on pakisatn.. u wear western clothes but want a govrnment who wud dictate how we shud dress whether we must have beards etc etc....

jinnah was not secular may be.. but he never wanted an islamic system that maududi or zia cropped up...

jinnah was a liberal

Millions of Muslims live in foreign countries who wear western clothes...are you going to say that means every single one of them is secular? I wear western clothes and I say a big no to secularism. Just because he did something that isn't permissible in Islam, does not make him secular. You are not allowed to lie in Islam either but lmost every muslim alive today lies once in a while, does that mean every single muslim in the whole world is secular?

 

[Humi]

tats the catch 22 situation.. u said islamic govt; teh ulemas have concensus including israr ahmed that taliban has the best islamic system in current world if not perfect very close.... so if u want khilafa.. first make yr self appear accorsding to muslim guidelines then aply it on pakisatn.. u wear western clothes but want a govrnment who wud dictate how we shud dress whether we must have beards etc etc....

jinnah was not secular may be.. but he never wanted an islamic system that maududi or zia cropped up...

jinnah was a liberal

by that logic every single person in pakistan should quit lying forever as well since lying isnt allowed in islam...:lol:..you think every single person used to follow islam perfectly during the time of the prophet (PBUH)? of course not. Islamic system was being implemented at that time, and there used to be many non-muslims living there as well..if an islamic system can work at that time when non-muslims lived there..why cant it be implemented where majory of population is muslims, even if they are not perfect muslims?

But you are right...we need to make changes within ourselves as well..however there are much bigger issues in our society than the presence of western clothes..

 

[SaadKnight]

by that logic every single person in pakistan should quit lying forever as well since lying isnt allowed in islam...:lol:..you think every single person used to follow islam perfectly during the time of the prophet (PBUH)? of course not. Islamic system was being implemented at that time, and there used to be many non-muslims living there as well..if an islamic system can work at that time when non-muslims lived there..why cant it be implemented where majory of population is muslims, even if they are not perfect muslims?

But you are right...we need to make changes within ourselves as well..however there are much bigger issues in our society than the presence of western clothes..

All the issues in our sciety exist because we do not change (do not want to change) ourselves according to our deen ;)

 

[adnan_younus]

are you comparing that time with ours????
and there is a difference b/w muslim majority state and an islamic state...
in muslim majority; the people decide what laws they want to implement.. in an islamic state any perticular sect , mufti or aalim decide what will be the state laws etc etc

to end my poimt.. though i never quote hadiths and ayaats to prove any of my views... our prophet(PBUH) said his time was the best and from that onwards it willl only deteriorate ... so we shud stop dreaming and stop soothiing and stop lyeing to our selfs that we wnt islamic system...

my theory is people who dont follow islam in its true spirit jsut wanna blame the system that it wasnt islamic to i didnt follow....

the day of judgement wil be for an individual.... not for a system.. and an individual living in a vulgar system but flllwing islam will be much higher than an individual livign in an islamic system following those rules... IT IS THE INDIVIDUAL EFFORT THAT COUNTS.. start wihin yr self and stop dreaming abt the system

by that logic every single person in pakistan should quit lying forever as well since lying isnt allowed in islam...:lol:..you think every single person used to follow islam perfectly during the time of the prophet (PBUH)? of course not. Islamic system was being implemented at that time, and there used to be many non-muslims living there as well..if an islamic system can work at that time when non-muslims lived there..why cant it be implemented where majory of population is muslims, even if they are not perfect muslims?

But you are right...we need to make changes within ourselves as well..however there are much bigger issues in our society than the presence of western clothes..

 

[Humi]

are you comparing that time with ours????
and there is a difference b/w muslim majority state and an islamic state...
in muslim majority; the people decide what laws they want to implement.. in an islamic state any perticular sect , mufti or aalim decide what will be the state laws etc etc

to end my poimt.. though i never quote hadiths and ayaats to prove any of my views... our prophet(PBUH) said his time was the best and from that onwards it willl only deteriorate ... so we shud stop dreaming and stop soothiing and stop lyeing to our selfs that we wnt islamic system...

my theory is people who dont follow islam in its true spirit jsut wanna blame the system that it wasnt islamic to i didnt follow....

the day of judgement wil be for an individual.... not for a system.. and an individual living in a vulgar system but flllwing islam will be much higher than an individual livign in an islamic system following those rules... IT IS THE INDIVIDUAL EFFORT THAT COUNTS.. start wihin yr self and stop dreaming abt the system

so you are saying you disagree when ulemah say that its our responsibility to work towards the establishment of an islamic state? and do notice that I didn't say we will make it happen...I said I would prefer and want it to be an islamic state...

I know the difference between a majority rule and an islamic one very well...do tell how do you think Allah would look at us when the majority rule makes lawful what Allah has made unlawful e.g. riba. Allah and his prophet (PBUH) has declared war on people who record, eat and give riba. Have we lost our faith to such an extent that our majority rules rulers have declared a war on Allah and his prophet (PBUH) and we are all ok with that?

and its not a dreaming bubble that I am living in...the system will not keep deteriorating forever..that is just not true..i would like to quote this hadith...

"There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method"

The Mahdi is not going to rule under a secular system. Am I saying end democracy right now and bring in an islamic system? No! All I am saying is that I want an islamic system becuase its the best system ever that was created by Allah and his last propher (PBUH).

yes, i agree we will go before Allah individually with our sins and good desds but you or I do not know better than the prophet (PBUH) and he said:

"The knots of Islam will be broken one by one until each one of them is broken. The first knot to be broken will be the knot of ruling, and the last knot to be broken will be the knot of Salat."

There was a reason he said that the downfall of Islam will start when an islamic system is no longer being followed! How many parents do you see who teach their children everything about the religion so they act according to it when there is no higher authority to facilitate it. Tell me, how many people in our society leave behind their property to their loved ones according to an Islamic rules? It was said that whoever didn't leave behind their property according to islamic rules, its like he never did a good thing in his life. Majority of people dont even know there is an islamic system for divind the property between their loved ones. Now you will say that individuals can still study islam and do the division according to islamic rules. but since when is there a lot of importance of learning about islam in our society? We are all busy learning how to become a doctor or what is legal and illegal under democracy. Yes, we would need to make ourselves better persons to implement this system but how can anyone doubt that such a system would educate our youth about Islam like the current system doesnt and help them become better muslims as well..a

 

[adnan_younus]

system consist of people.. i dont have any objections to an islamic system... if majority of people within a state become religious and islamic.. teh system wil automatically become islamic....

the objection i have is with drawing talkers who debate endlessly that the system must be islamic( including me when i was in early 20's) while the sound of prayers just pass by them... and after the debate they may be watch a movie or listen to songs....

They find it self pleasing since they dont follow islam to its true sense; by debating on the system it gives them peace taht atleast we talked about it :D:D

will jeans and t shirt be allowed in yourt islamic system?? taliban didint and as i said scholars regarded tat as the closest one cud get to an islamic system in current world...

so if u cannot implement a system on to yr self or to yr home(e.g. by not watching movies which is UNISLAMIC or wearing western cloths again which is UNISLAMIC); why do u talk about a country and debate it shud be islamic..

Answer:
self pleasure and sense of completeness that you are doing some religious duty while in reality its mere chit chat...

and mehdi(AS) might come after 1000 years or 1 minute... we dont know.... so let teh time be responsible for that

so you are saying you disagree when ulemah say that its our responsibility to work towards the establishment of an islamic state? and do notice that I didn't say we will make it happen...I said I would prefer and want it to be an islamic state...

I know the difference between a majority rule and an islamic one very well...do tell how do you think Allah would look at us when the majority rule makes lawful what Allah has made unlawful e.g. riba. Allah and his prophet (PBUH) has declared war on people who record, eat and give riba. Have we lost our faith to such an extent that our majority rules rulers have declared a war on Allah and his prophet (PBUH) and we are all ok with that?

and its not a dreaming bubble that I am living in...the system will not keep deteriorating forever..that is just not true..i would like to quote this hadith...

"There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method"

The Mahdi is not going to rule under a secular system. Am I saying end democracy right now and bring in an islamic system? No! All I am saying is that I want an islamic system becuase its the best system ever that was created by Allah and his last propher (PBUH).

yes, i agree we will go before Allah individually with our sins and good desds but you or I do not know better than the prophet (PBUH) and he said:

"The knots of Islam will be broken one by one until each one of them is broken. The first knot to be broken will be the knot of ruling, and the last knot to be broken will be the knot of Salat."

There was a reason he said that the downfall of Islam will start when an islamic system is no longer being followed! How many parents do you see who teach their children everything about the religion so they act according to it when there is no higher authority to facilitate it. Tell me, how many people in our society leave behind their property to their loved ones according to an Islamic rules? It was said that whoever didn't leave behind their property according to islamic rules, its like he never did a good thing in his life. Majority of people dont even know there is an islamic system for divind the property between their loved ones. Now you will say that individuals can still study islam and do the division according to islamic rules. but since when is there a lot of importance of learning about islam in our society? We are all busy learning how to become a doctor or what is legal and illegal under democracy. Yes, we would need to make ourselves better persons to implement this system but how can anyone doubt that such a system would educate our youth about Islam like the current system doesnt and help them become better muslims as well..a

 

[Humi]

system consist of people.. i dont have any objections to an islamic system... if majority of people within a state become religious and islamic.. teh system wil automatically become islamic....

the objection i have is with drawing talkers who debate endlessly that the system must be islamic( including me when i was in early 20's) while the sound of prayers just pass by them... and after the debate they may be watch a movie or listen to songs....

They find it self pleasing since they dont follow islam to its true sense; by debating on the system it gives them peace taht atleast we talked about it :D:D

will jeans and t shirt be allowed in yourt islamic system?? taliban didint and as i said scholars regarded tat as the closest one cud get to an islamic system in current world...

so if u cannot implement a system on to yr self or to yr home(e.g. by not watching movies which is UNISLAMIC or wearing western cloths again which is UNISLAMIC); why do u talk about a country and debate it shud be islamic..

Answer:
self pleasure and sense of completeness that you are doing some religious duty while in reality its mere chit chat...

and mehdi(AS) might come after 1000 years or 1 minute... we dont know.... so let teh time be responsible for that

i never said, we will establish it or it should be established right now...of course, Allah will only give it to us after we are deserving of it...i do agree that mahdi is probably not coming for a while..i am sure we still havent experienced that biting oppression yet..however i dont think there is any issue if you talk of wanting it..in today's world, we often don't think of religion is our everyday lives when making decisions...i think knowing in the back of your head that there is a system designed for you encourages you to consider what Allah would have wanted or didnt want you do..