PML-N Is Absolutely Responsible for crime against humanity

[aslamzia123]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBJ_deF6XQM&eurl=http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/3991578-pmln-responsible-for-crime-against-humanity&feature=player_embedded[/video]

Pakistan Muslim League Nawaz Group Is Totally Responsible For The Act of 1992 Operation Against The Citizens Of Pakistan.............They Gave No Concern To The Jinnahpur Maps Which Today They Proved To Be False At Every Step.


Adolf Hitler will always be known in the history of mankind as being the most racial and barbaric dictator on the basis of ethnic and religious affiliations. The world soon realized the agenda of Nazi German forces two days after invasion of Poland (on September 3rd 1939), resulting in formation of allies between United Kingdom and France, declaring war on Nazi Germany.In the year 1992, the same story was repeated here in our country Pakistan, with different set of personalities involved and on different racial/political grounds.Yesterday night ex Director General of Intelligence Bureau (IB which is classed as the top civilian intelligence setup of our country), Brigadier (R) Imtiaz appeared on a talk show named Sawal Yeh Hai (the question is that) hosted by Dr. Danish, on ARY OneWorld TV channel unleashing so far un-told history.I am not sure if Brig (R) Imtiaz himself committed crime by revealing intelligence operations from the sad history of this country, but ones eyes cant stop tears after listening to what has been done on this part of the planet back in early 90s.The other guest in the program was Syed Haider Abbas Rizvi of Muttahida Quami Movement (MQM) who is termed as the deputy parliamentary leader of the party as well.Revealing a lot of yet untold details from the history along with an operation by Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) to unearth plans of Central Intelligence Agency (CIA of USA) trying to plant technicians in the nuclear installations of the country.The Khar LegacyOne of the stories he tell is that Ghulam Mustafa Khar was staying in London in self-exile staying in the apartment of Seth Abid, where he was approached by Joshi, a senior officer of Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) of India, creating a joint plan that when there will be Corps Commander conference going on in the Rawalpindi, Pakistan, they will explode the building with explosives, killing all the senior military leadership of Pakistan. According to Birg (R) Imtiaz, Mustafa Khar was the central role player of the plan and RAW was cooperating with him, and he even met with Indra Ghandi, the then Prime Minister of India who formally approved the operation. On the other hand Seth Abid met General Zia and informed him that Mustafa Khar have some dirty plans against the country.He says that Seth Abid was then planted as the Pakistani agent and used to communicate with Mustafa Khar from the ISI office answering to a question if this is a true-tale, Brig (R) Imtiaz also revealed that all the conversations of the plan between Seth Abid and Mustafa Khar are still on record and are saved at Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) at this time. Then he tells how the plan was busted with the help of Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agents. When Mustafa Khar was phoned on the program by the host, he clearly rejected the allegations and asked that another program should be hosted and he be invited to take his views rather than on phone, to which Dr. Danish agreed.Mass murders in 1992 OperationAfter seeking a confirmation that he have experience of more than 11 years of service in Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Dr. Danish asked Brig (R) Imtiaz about another conspiracy of 1992 Operation against the Muttahida Quami Movement (MQM), when Lt Gen Naseer Akhtar was Corps Commander of 10 Corps (Karachi) and Lt. Gen Asif Janjua was the Chief of Army Staff. The then Prime Minsiter, Nawaz Sharif was not sought any permission about this operation says Brig (R) Imtiaz, and says that the operation was started without the permission of Mr. Nawaz Sharif. He confirms that this is definite that when this operation began, MQM raised her voice against the operation & the international community shown concern over this operation, Mr Nawaz Sharif called on Lt Gen Asif Janjua, the then Chief of Army staff, to discuss the issue to which the then Prime Minister, Mr. Nawaz Sharif instructed to continue the operation!Dr. Danish then questions the political innocence of Mr. Nawaz Sharif, as he is famous for his deliberate ignorance including the Kargil war, as why he did not ask this operation to be stopped which was started and continued in his government.Dr. Danish then takes Lt. Gen (R) Naseer Akhtar on phone and questions him that if he did seek permission from the then Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif to conduct the operation to kill 15000 workers of MQM to which he confirmed that the permission was sought in proper chain of command and Mr. Nawaz Sharif was present in the Pano Aqil Cantonment during all the conferences where the 1992 Operation was discussed along with Chief Of Army Staff and President Ghulam Ishaq Khan and gave permission to conduct this genocide!Then he asks ex-corps commander about the Jinnahpur map discovered from Karachi, to which he said that this was very disappointing, there were never any of such map discovered, and it was withdrawn just after two days and he declines twice on the phone line that even while being Corps Commander of Karachi, he was completely unaware of the Jinnahpur map this to be noted here that Lt Gen (R) Naseer Akhtar is known as responsible and mastermind of the 1992 Karachi operation.Coming back to Brig (R) Imtiaz, Dr. Danish questions that according to the ex-corps commander, Lt Gen (R) Naseer Akhtar the prime minister, Nawaz Sharif and Chief of Army Staff, Lt. Gen (R) Asif Janjua was completely in loop of the operation Brig (R) Imtiaz once again decline that prime minister Nawaz Shareef was completely unaware of the illegal operation against MQM, but agreed that he ordered to continue operation.Then he comes back to Jinnahpur saga and asks Brig (R) Imtiaz that being the then DG Intelligence Bureau to tell that from which office of Muttahida Quami Movement (MQM) the so called map of Jinnahpur was discovered? Answering to which he says that I investigated this whole issue for seven days and at the end concluded that this Jinnahpur map was a complete drama and conspiracy against Muttahida Quami Movement (MQM) and there were absolutely no maps discovered from the offices of MQM.Brig (R) Imtiaz asks that Lt. Gen (R) Naseer Akhtar was the Corps Commander of the 10 Corp during that time then how this is possible that he was completely unaware of the Jinnahpur map? How this become possible that those maps were published? Who passed it to the press resulting in the headlines of all the newspapers on the next day? Including the headline of the JANG newspaper published in the London. This is bloody nonsense.Breaking in tears, Haider Abbas Rizvi says that this is a big day of his life, it reminds him of his 15000 party workers killed in this operation, the way his party and the leader Altaf Hussain was accused of being agents of Research & Analysis Wing (RAW INDIA). The way the patriotism of his party was challenged. He also requests Brig (R) Imtiaz to please swear upon Allah to tell everyone about those torture cells of MQM were ever existed?Haider Abbas Rizvi says that during the operation, women workers of MQM, including mothers and sisters were rotten under horses by Police and the Army during the operation, he thanked Lt. Gen (R) Naseer Akhtar of telling and accepting the truth today after 17 years.Dr. Danish when asking another question, Haider Rizvi insisted Dr. Danish to please ask Brig (R) Imtiaz if those torture cell of MQM ever existed to which Dr. Danish said that as this is now clear that Jinnahpur map was a propaganda against MQM and was fake, it is needless to question that MQM operated any torture cell anywhere.Finally, In My OpinionIn my humble opinion, this is one of the biggest blunder in the history of our beloved country that a political party was convicted of false crimes and an illegal operation was raged on them resulting in the deaths of 15000 workers, including infants, children and women.Out of whole of this episode of the Dr. Danishs talk show, one thing we can easily conclude that this operation was started or at least continued with the will of the then Prime Minister, Mr. Nawaz Sharif of Pakistan Muslim League (PML-N, Nawaz Group) which is indeed a symbol of shame for everyone being citizen of this country.Those who have lived in the city of Karachi during 1992-1999 are well aware of how this operation was conducted, how members of an specific political party (MQM) was killed under the blame of claiming of a separate state, which is all now termed as false.Since now this fact is revealed and the 1992 operation unearthed, Mr. Nawaz Sharif and his party PML-N, proud owner of sugar mills, flour mills, rice mills, members of the elite class, the lions of the Punjab, should be ashamed of conducting such serious crimes and mass murder and in my humble opinion must be tried in the international criminal court under sections of crimes against humanity.Now I ask where is Mr. Chief Justice, Justice Chaudhary Iftikhar Hussain? I hope he have seen the yesterdays episode of Dr. Danishs program or at least have read the newspapers? Will he take suo-moto action now? Or his sou-moto actions are only bound to be for one of those blessed ones where there is a vested interest.By the way, 15000 (or lets say 1500?) illegal murders is not a joke! We need to take some serious actions against those responsible now in order to avoid any genocide in future in our country, and in my humble opinion the list starts with 1. PML-N Leader Mr. Nawaz Sharif, 2. The then Chief of Army Staff, Lt. Gen (R) Asif Janjua, 3. The then Coprs Commander of 10 Core (Karachi), Lt. Gen (R) Naseer Akhtar, and so on.Let us have a Change!

 

[PakPatriot1]

MITTI KI MOHABBAT MEIN HUM ASHUFTA SARON NE
WOH QARZ OOTARE HEIN JO WAJIB BHI NAHI THAI

I remember that operation. Every street and corner of Karachi was under the threat of army, rangers and police. Everyday, on almost every neibourhood there was a random and target killing of MQM supporters and workers going on.

What a fearful days and nights they were for those who had young sons in their homes. You never knew when your home would be raided and your son would be taken to an unknown place and killed. It was a total jungle ka qanoon.

But still these people never supported Jinnahpur. Altaf or MQM never thiought to launch a seperation movement.

They always go for elections and do struggle in a peacful manner.

After this program this has become very important to note the conspiracies in Pakistan.

Altaf Hussain must not come to Pakistan. All who want him to come back, either want to kill him or don't realize the situation.
This is another conspiracy is being built against the integrity and sovereignty of Pakistan and you people are becoming the part of this activity deliberately or undeliberately.

People don't understand that this is a very dangerous game, they are playing with fire. If Altaf Hussain comes to Pakistan and anything happens to him, then remember, this is not 1992. People of Karachi will not tolerate any more.

Are you ready to deal with the aftermath? Especially when Pakistan is surrounded by many international enemies. Do you want to open another front inside Pakistan along with Baluchistan and northern areas?

If Karachi is in peace right now, let it be in peace. Karachi's peace ensures Pakistan's peace.

For the sake of Pakistan. it is better that Altaf Hussain should live in a safe place.

I know what kind of replies I will get from you guys. But I have put the sentiments of 80% of Karachi people in front of you.

If 'Altaf Hussain doesn't come to Pakistan there is no harm in it. The peole and the party he leads will suffer not you, BUT if he comes to Pakistan then a BIG risk is involve.
The decision is yours.

 

[shaheedchoudry]

ITS ARMY. POLITICAL PARTIES DON'T HAVE ANY SAY WHEN IT COMES TO MILITARY OPERATIONS.

 

[irfan123]

ITS ARMY. POLITICAL PARTIES DON'T HAVE ANY SAY WHEN IT COMES TO MILITARY OPERATIONS.

NAWAZ SHARIF HAS TO SHAME ON HIMSELF................ what kind of Prime Minsiter nawaz was..............nawaz claims that he didnt no that .....operation was happening his party said he was in london what loser.............when cargill happen nawaz claim he didnt no about it........it what he alwayz claims is rite then he has to be shame of himself......usko dubar kabhi bhi PM buney ka sochna hinahi chayeee kasa PM hai usko kuch pata hi naih hota logon mar jatey hain marey jatey hai OR PM kheta ha mujhey tu pata naih tha me tu LONDON me tha wha kay bat hai.................on top of that yeh besharam admi phir PM buna chata hai or abh pata naih kitno ko or marwa kar khega mujhey pata naih tha.............besharmi ki had hoti hai,,,,,,,,,,,in ko sharam bhi naih atiii apney kamoo per or phir kharey hojatey hain allah ka bhi dar naih hia inlogon ko........MQM ko chayee nawaz per 17000 logon ki murder ka case karey abh dekthey hain iftekar chudery tu sach ka almbardar bunta hai wo apney AKAA nawaz GAney ko bachaney key liyee konsa sach kheta hai or kasa faisla sunata hia,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,inshallah in subh ka waqt bohut kareeb hai or bohut chuld alllah ki lathi in per parney wali hai inshallah.............in loteroon ka moo bohut juld kala hoga inshallah.

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

ITS ARMY. POLITICAL PARTIES DON'T HAVE ANY SAY WHEN IT COMES TO MILITARY OPERATIONS.

NAWAZ SHARIF HAS TO SHAME ON HIMSELF................ what kind of Prime Minsiter nawaz was..............nawaz claims that he didnt no that .....operation was happening his party said he was in london what loser.............when cargill happen nawaz claim he didnt no about it........it what he alwayz claims is rite then he has to be shame of himself......usko dubar kabhi bhi PM buney ka sochna hinahi chayeee kasa PM hai usko kuch pata hi naih hota logon mar jatey hain marey jatey hai OR PM kheta ha mujhey tu pata naih tha me tu LONDON me tha wha kay bat hai.................on top of that yeh besharam admi phir PM buna chata hai or abh pata naih kitno ko or marwa kar khega mujhey pata naih tha.............besharmi ki had hoti hai,,,,,,,,,,,in ko sharam bhi naih atiii apney kamoo per or phir kharey hojatey hain allah ka bhi dar naih hia inlogon ko........MQM ko chayee nawaz per 17000 logon ki murder ka case karey abh dekthey hain iftekar chudery tu sach ka almbardar bunta hai wo apney AKAA nawaz GAney ko bachaney key liyee konsa sach kheta hai or kasa faisla sunata hia,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,inshallah in subh ka waqt bohut kareeb hai or bohut chuld alllah ki lathi in per parney wali hai inshallah.............in loteroon ka moo bohut juld kala hoga inshallah.

The 1992 operation was started against those who were criminal elements in Karachi and obviously the majority of them were found within MQM ranks.Those who were taking part in the operation were briefing the media regarding the operation and its progress. There were pictures, stories and workers who were capture and admitted running torture centres within Karachi. Alataf Hussain's statement which he issued from London also recognizing the Torture cells and he offered resiging from the leadership of MQM. In those press briefings, the map Of Junnah Pur was disclosed, However, the army taken it back within days and never charged anyone with treason. The torture cells and the criminal elements were apprehended and charged. I don't understand why MQM sympathizers screaming and yelling and claiming to be vindicated. The situation in Karachi before the operation was worsening and it got better afterword.The discovery of the map of Junnah Pur may have been ( and those who were involved started to admit) wrong, however, the operation was started to clean up the murderers and criminals from Karachi streets and it served its purpose.

 

[Guest]

ITS ARMY. POLITICAL PARTIES DON'T HAVE ANY SAY WHEN IT COMES TO MILITARY OPERATIONS.

NAWAZ SHARIF HAS TO SHAME ON HIMSELF................ what kind of Prime Minsiter nawaz was..............nawaz claims that he didnt no that .....operation was happening his party said he was in london what loser.............when cargill happen nawaz claim he didnt no about it........it what he alwayz claims is rite then he has to be shame of himself......usko dubar kabhi bhi PM buney ka sochna hinahi chayeee kasa PM hai usko kuch pata hi naih hota logon mar jatey hain marey jatey hai OR PM kheta ha mujhey tu pata naih tha me tu LONDON me tha wha kay bat hai.................on top of that yeh besharam admi phir PM buna chata hai or abh pata naih kitno ko or marwa kar khega mujhey pata naih tha.............besharmi ki had hoti hai,,,,,,,,,,,in ko sharam bhi naih atiii apney kamoo per or phir kharey hojatey hain allah ka bhi dar naih hia inlogon ko........MQM ko chayee nawaz per 17000 logon ki murder ka case karey abh dekthey hain iftekar chudery tu sach ka almbardar bunta hai wo apney AKAA nawaz GAney ko bachaney key liyee konsa sach kheta hai or kasa faisla sunata hia,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,inshallah in subh ka waqt bohut kareeb hai or bohut chuld alllah ki lathi in per parney wali hai inshallah.............in loteroon ka moo bohut juld kala hoga inshallah.

The 1992 operation was started against those who were criminal elements in Karachi and obviously the majority of them were found within MQM ranks.Those who were taking part in the operation were briefing the media regarding the operation and its progress. There were pictures, stories and workers who were capture and admitted running torture centres within Karachi. Alataf Hussain's statement which he issued from London also recognizing the Torture cells and he offered resiging from the leadership of MQM. In those press briefings, the map Of Junnah Pur was disclosed, However, the army taken it back within days and never charged anyone with treason. The torture cells and the criminal elements were apprehended and charged. I don't understand why MQM sympathizers screaming and yelling and claiming to be vindicated. The situation in Karachi before the operation was worsening and it got better afterword.The discovery of the map of Junnah Pur may have been ( and those who were involved started to admit) wrong, however, the operation was started to clean up the murderers and criminals from Karachi streets and it served its purpose.

A pethatic reason to justify the wrong doins or blunder if it was against the criminals then why in karachi why not in interior sindh punjab peshawar baluchistan everday in pakistan 10-20 bus are been looted on the highway then why in karachi do u have an answer
cant u see the criminal now belogs to punjab PML-N party
credit card
rape
cheating in examinations
beating police officers
baluchistan an openly crimeare been done in the name of karo-kari

do u have an answer to it

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

The 1992 operation was started against those who were criminal elements in Karachi and obviously the majority of them were found within MQM ranks.Those who were taking part in the operation were briefing the media regarding the operation and its progress. There were pictures, stories and workers who were capture and admitted running torture centres within Karachi. Alataf Hussain's statement which he issued from London also recognizing the Torture cells and he offered resiging from the leadership of MQM. In those press briefings, the map Of Junnah Pur was disclosed, However, the army taken it back within days and never charged anyone with treason. The torture cells and the criminal elements were apprehended and charged. I don't understand why MQM sympathizers screaming and yelling and claiming to be vindicated. The situation in Karachi before the operation was worsening and it got better afterword.The discovery of the map of Junnah Pur may have been ( and those who were involved started to admit) wrong, however, the operation was started to clean up the murderers and criminals from Karachi streets and it served its purpose.[/quote]



A pethatic reason to justify the wrong doins or blunder if it was against the criminals then why in karachi why not in interior sindh punjab peshawar baluchistan everday in pakistan 10-20 bus are been looted on the highway then why in karachi do u have an answer
cant u see the criminal now belogs to punjab PML-N party
credit card
rape
cheating in examinations
beating police officers
baluchistan an openly crimeare been done in the name of karo-kari

do u have an answer to it[/quote]


Getting rid of the criminals from any society is not a pathetic act. Neither accussing someone of the crimes not committed is accaptable. Your problem is PMLN , and my answer is the stopping of murders and criminal elements are always welcome no matter which party they belong.Karachi was burning at the time, the crimes rate was out of the control of the local authorities.MQM was(and still is) not an angel face in Karachi. Even the kids knew what they wer up to. So, don't play oppressed game now. Obviously there was a false accusation which could not be condole.

If you think above crimes are close to taking the lives of someone, then you can take them to the court and suggest death penalty.

 

[irfan123]

ITS ARMY. POLITICAL PARTIES DON'T HAVE ANY SAY WHEN IT COMES TO MILITARY OPERATIONS.

NAWAZ SHARIF HAS TO SHAME ON HIMSELF................ what kind of Prime Minsiter nawaz was..............nawaz claims that he didnt no that .....operation was happening his party said he was in london what loser.............when cargill happen nawaz claim he didnt no about it........it what he alwayz claims is rite then he has to be shame of himself......usko dubar kabhi bhi PM buney ka sochna hinahi chayeee kasa PM hai usko kuch pata hi naih hota logon mar jatey hain marey jatey hai OR PM kheta ha mujhey tu pata naih tha me tu LONDON me tha wha kay bat hai.................on top of that yeh besharam admi phir PM buna chata hai or abh pata naih kitno ko or marwa kar khega mujhey pata naih tha.............besharmi ki had hoti hai,,,,,,,,,,,in ko sharam bhi naih atiii apney kamoo per or phir kharey hojatey hain allah ka bhi dar naih hia inlogon ko........MQM ko chayee nawaz per 17000 logon ki murder ka case karey abh dekthey hain iftekar chudery tu sach ka almbardar bunta hai wo apney AKAA nawaz GAney ko bachaney key liyee konsa sach kheta hai or kasa faisla sunata hia,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,inshallah in subh ka waqt bohut kareeb hai or bohut chuld alllah ki lathi in per parney wali hai inshallah.............in loteroon ka moo bohut juld kala hoga inshallah.

The 1992 operation was started against those who were criminal elements in Karachi and obviously the majority of them were found within MQM ranks.Those who were taking part in the operation were briefing the media regarding the operation and its progress. There were pictures, stories and workers who were capture and admitted running torture centres within Karachi. Alataf Hussain's statement which he issued from London also recognizing the Torture cells and he offered resiging from the leadership of MQM. In those press briefings, the map Of Junnah Pur was disclosed, However, the army taken it back within days and never charged anyone with treason. The torture cells and the criminal elements were apprehended and charged. I don't understand why MQM sympathizers screaming and yelling and claiming to be vindicated. The situation in Karachi before the operation was worsening and it got better afterword.The discovery of the map of Junnah Pur may have been ( and those who were involved started to admit) wrong, however, the operation was started to clean up the murderers and criminals from Karachi streets and it served its purpose.

I think its a waste of time to answere a question from some one like u who doesnt want to understand and listen the truth just stay like murgi ki ek tang...........u r usless my friend..........grow up then argue u r to young for these thing better stay quit...........

 

[PakPatriot1]

The 1992 operation was started against those who were criminal elements in Karachi and obviously the majority of them were found within MQM ranks.Those who were taking part in the operation were briefing the media regarding the operation and its progress. There were pictures, stories and workers who were capture and admitted running torture centres within Karachi. Alataf Hussain's statement which he issued from London also recognizing the Torture cells and he offered resiging from the leadership of MQM. In those press briefings, the map Of Junnah Pur was disclosed, However, the army taken it back within days and never charged anyone with treason. The torture cells and the criminal elements were apprehended and charged. I don't understand why MQM sympathizers screaming and yelling and claiming to be vindicated. The situation in Karachi before the operation was worsening and it got better afterword.The discovery of the map of Junnah Pur may have been ( and those who were involved started to admit) wrong, however, the operation was started to clean up the murderers and criminals from Karachi streets and it served its purpose.

@Zaidi:

Oh my God, Where are your top norms, values, rules of law and supremacy of justice that you have always been advocating for?

The question is not that who was involved, the questions are:

1- Whoever started but whether that operation was legitimate or not?
2- Naswaz Sharif was aware of it or not?
3- If Mr. Sharif knew it then he is entitled to be trialed along with everyone involved or not?
4- If he was not aware then why he kept the operation get going? Why he didn't stoped it right away when he came to know?
5- If MQM workers and leadership were involved in any kind of criminal activity and as per you said Altaf admitted of the presence of torcher cells, then why not any legal action was taken?
6 - Why extra judicial killings of these people became inevitable? Remember a suspect remains a suspect until proven. You can not punish anyone based on your assumptions and allegations. This is the very basic rule written in all the books of law.
7- Are you saying that rule of law and supremacy of justice is different for different Pakistanis.
8- OR you don't consider them Pakistanis at all?
9- Who will put attention on your extremely naive and non-sense lame excuses?
10- Can you justify any of your arguments and standings on this matter in front of any court of law in the world?
11- Are you not becoming a biggest advocator of jungle's law.
12- Are you teaching our kids "MIGHT IS RIGHT"?

My friend,I have no problem if you do opposition to MQM, but when it comes to rules and laws, I expect you to be fair not a biased one.

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

The 1992 operation was started against those who were criminal elements in Karachi and obviously the majority of them were found within MQM ranks.Those who were taking part in the operation were briefing the media regarding the operation and its progress. There were pictures, stories and workers who were capture and admitted running torture centres within Karachi. Alataf Hussain's statement which he issued from London also recognizing the Torture cells and he offered resiging from the leadership of MQM. In those press briefings, the map Of Junnah Pur was disclosed, However, the army taken it back within days and never charged anyone with treason. The torture cells and the criminal elements were apprehended and charged. I don't understand why MQM sympathizers screaming and yelling and claiming to be vindicated. The situation in Karachi before the operation was worsening and it got better afterword.The discovery of the map of Junnah Pur may have been ( and those who were involved started to admit) wrong, however, the operation was started to clean up the murderers and criminals from Karachi streets and it served its purpose.

@Zaidi:

Oh my God, Where are your top norms, values, rules of law and supremacy of justice that you have always been advocating for?

The question is not that who was involved, the questions are:

1- Whoever started but whether that operation was legitimate or not?
2- Naswaz Sharif was aware of it or not?
3- If Mr. Sharif knew it then he is entitled to be trialed along with everyone involved or not?
4- If he was not aware then why he kept the operation get going? Why he didn't stoped it right away when he came to know?
5- If MQM workers and leadership were involved in any kind of criminal activity and as per you said Altaf admitted of the presence of torcher cells, then why not any legal action was taken?
6 - Why extra judicial killings of these people became inevitable? Remember a suspect remains a suspect until proven. You can not punish anyone based on your assumptions and allegations. This is the very basic rule written in all the books of law.
7- Are you saying that rule of law and supremacy of justice is different for different Pakistanis.
8- OR you don't consider them Pakistanis at all?
9- Who will put attention on your extremely naive and non-sense lame excuses?
10- Can you justify any of your arguments and standings on this matter in front of any court of law in the world?
11- Are you not becoming a biggest advocator of jungle's law.
12- Are you teaching our kids "MIGHT IS RIGHT"?

My friend,I have no problem if you do opposition to MQM, but when it comes to rules and laws, I expect you to be fair not a biased one.

Pakpatriot:

Let me answer you 1 to 1 , this is a month of fasting and I don't think anyone of us should waste time unneccessary and hide the truth or lie flatly. I expect you to be true and Be honest.
So, Lets start

1-This operation was legit. It was legit becuase the aim was to get rid of the criminlas within Karachi. Mqm was holding power( in colaboration with PML) and most of the ghundas were under their guidance creating hevoc in Karachi.

2-As per both generals, Naqwaz Sharif went along after the operation started. In the begining, he was not consulted . Now, when they briefed him, they probably told him about the kind of people they are grabbing and discovering of the torture houses in Karchi... And This is my personal opinion. Nawaz went along after looking at what was being shown to him.

3- If you think the operation started only to malign the MQM , then yes I agree with you that they should all be tried and all the evidences should be brought forward,including Altaf's statements at the time.And if the operation was started to clean up the city from murderers, then I don't think the trial is neccessary. However, If any Army General lied about Jinnah Pur's map, he should stand trial even now.

5- I already gave you my opinion the reason he went along. God knows all.

6-No one is condoling the killing of people without trial.In Baluchistan, Army killed many baluchi without taking them to the courts. In Lal Masjid, Musharraf ordered the messacre and there were many innocents lost their lives.
In Karachi, when Army started operation, there were few who will not hold their fire. There may have been innocent lives lost which is regrettable.But you got to admit, there were many old ghundas who also got killed.

7- From Baluchistan's example, you already got my answer.

8-Karachi is part of Pakistan, but you won't allow bori band Lash and Bhutta khori without tackling the criminals.

9-My arguments goes straight in favour of any operation to get rid of the criminals no matter who they are, which party they belong to.Anyone who likes to see the Karchi be peaceful and without criminals , will always favour the cleanup ....

10-The law and order situation in Karachi was worsening. No Government should just stand idle in fronnt of criminals and Murderers. Law should have prevailed ,However, the Local law enforcement authorities were unable to controlo the situation.I would have liked if army insted of killing people, brought them to the regular courts insted of summary courts. That would have been an idle situation.

11- I stood against MQM, Musharraf, not becuase of any personal enemosity But I think they making the law of Pakistan , the law of Jungle. How could I promote the Jungle's law ?

12- The last and not the least, Musharraf was a show case of Might is right. All Dictators are. I am agaist this concept. And I have written extensively about it. I don't need any certificate from anyone.

 

[karachi]

[quote="Zaidi Qasim":1g02a6on]


My friend,I have no problem if you do opposition to MQM, but when it comes to rules and laws, I expect you to be fair not a biased one.

Pakpatriot:

Let me answer you 1 to 1 , this is a month of fasting and I don't think anyone of us should waste time unneccessary and hide the truth or lie flatly. I expect you to be true and Be honest.
So, Lets start

1-This operation was legit. It was legit becuase the aim was to get rid of the criminlas within Karachi. Mqm was holding power( in colaboration with PML) and most of the ghundas were under their guidance creating hevoc in Karachi.

2-As per both generals, Naqwaz Sharif went along after the operation started. In the begining, he was not consulted . Now, when they briefed him, they probably told him about the kind of people they are grabbing and discovering of the torture houses in Karchi... And This is my personal opinion. Nawaz went along after looking at what was being shown to him.

3- If you think the operation started only to malign the MQM , then yes I agree with you that they should all be tried and all the evidences should be brought forward,including Altaf's statements at the time.And if the operation was started to clean up the city from murderers, then I don't think the trial is neccessary. However, If any Army General lied about Jinnah Pur's map, he should stand trial even now.

5- I already gave you my opinion the reason he went along. God knows all.

6-No one is condoling the killing of people without trial.In Baluchistan, Army killed many baluchi without taking them to the courts. In Lal Masjid, Musharraf ordered the messacre and there were many innocents lost their lives.
In Karachi, when Army started operation, there were few who will not hold their fire. There may have been innocent lives lost which is regrettable.But you got to admit, there were many old ghundas who also got killed.

7- From Baluchistan's example, you already got my answer.

8-Karachi is part of Pakistan, but you won't allow bori band Lash and Bhutta khori without tackling the criminals.

9-My arguments goes straight in favour of any operation to get rid of the criminals no matter who they are, which party they belong to.Anyone who likes to see the Karchi be peaceful and without criminals , will always favour the cleanup ....

10-The law and order situation in Karachi was worsening. No Government should just stand idle in fronnt of criminals and Murderers. Law should have prevailed ,However, the Local law enforcement authorities were unable to controlo the situation.I would have liked if army insted of killing people, brought them to the regular courts insted of summary courts. That would have been an idle situation.

11- I stood against MQM, Musharraf, not becuase of any personal enemosity But I think they making the law of Pakistan , the law of Jungle. How could I promote the Jungle's law ?

12- The last and not the least, Musharraf was a show case of Might is right. All Dictators are. I am agaist this concept. And I have written extensively about it. I don't need any certificate from anyone.

[/quote:1g02a6on]



first go clear baluchistan then say which party doesnt have criminals
go unite bugti tribe why they are displaced
why they cannot enter to any other tribes land
why ur minister supports karokari openly in the senate
talking about ghundas
first clean that part of shit then come to karahi then MQM

 

[PakPatriot1]

@Zaidi:

Yes, you are right, this is THE month of Ramadhan, no body should go to the wrong way especially in this month. May Allah give all of us ability to face the truth.

Before going into any further details, can you please let me know how come the operation was legitimate? Can you give any reference if it is written in the constituition of Pakistan that without taking permission from an elected prime minister and democratic govt., army can start killing to the people of Pakistan based on false evidences (this is proven now that Jinnahpur was a drama stated by the same generals now).
So, can you justify it in the court with proper references?

MIND IT PLEASE:
I AM NOT TALKING HERE ANY MQM OR MUSHARAF.(They must be hung if they have committed any crime provided if they are proven guilty by the court)
I AM TALKING HERE RULE OF LAW IN PAKISTAN.
I AM TALKING HERE HUMANITY, JUSTICE, PAKISTAN AND PAKISTANIYAT HERE.
I AM TALKING ISLAM HERE IN THE MONTH OF RAMADHAN.

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

@Zaidi:

Yes, you are right, this is THE month of Ramadhan, no body should go to the wrong way especially in this month. May Allah give all of us ability to face the truth.

Before going into any further details, can you please let me know how come the operation was legitimate? Can you give any reference if it is written in the constituition of Pakistan that without taking permission from an elected prime minister and democratic govt., army can start killing to the people of Pakistan based on false evidences (this is proven now that Jinnahpur was a drama stated by the same generals now).
So, can you justify it in the court with proper references?

MIND IT PLEASE:
I AM NOT TALKING HERE ANY MQM OR MUSHARAF.(They must be hung if they have committed any crime provided if they are proven guilty by the court)
I AM TALKING HERE RULE OF LAW IN PAKISTAN.
I AM TALKING HERE HUMANITY, JUSTICE, PAKISTAN AND PAKISTANIYAT HERE.
I AM TALKING ISLAM HERE IN THE MONTH OF RAMADHAN.

Pakpatriot:

You can't find anyone more defender of the rule of law in Pakistan. When you have a local authority who stand helpless and the Murderers are rooming around in the cities shooting on will. When every Morning , you find the deadbodies of innocent Citizens by the side of the Streets, When Thugs start to breaking the houses and looting them , when thugs on bikes snatching the Jewellery from the hands of womens in daylighht time, the ordinary action won't resolve the situation. You know very well that this is what was happening in karachi in day light. I am not going to justify the action of disclosing the map of Jinnah Pur, but I honestly beleive that the operation was needed and it brought back the peace in Karachi .The rule of law was not maintained in Karachi during that time and someone had to do something to cleanup the mess. Now it happens that MQM and its workers were invloved with criminal activities and they were getting scott free while MQM was in power. As I said to you before, I wish if they had brought the criminals to the courts but some of the elements were very powerful and voilent. Of Course, many innocents lost their lives as well.

As far as the Torture houses is concerned, You can look it in to the newspapers and Altaf Also issued statement during that time apologizing to the Pakistani nation. what was that ? I hope it wasn't another non serious drama from actor in London.

As I have wathed this show, the both General didn't say that the operation was illegit. They however, dis say that ( one of them) as per his research, the Map Of Jinnah Pur was concoted by Army General to malign MQM. However, the actual operation wasn't only against MQM, but it happened that MQM workers were found to be in those illegal Activities.

And Pakpatriot, you know that MQM is not an angel party or party of angels. There must be some sort of command and control structure existed and still exists under the unit incharges where they make the call for the death and live of many people from above orders.

The rule of the law in Pakistan should must prevailed. If these army General fabricated the evidence and stories , they should be brought to justice including Nawaz Sharif and his Ministers. I like them all to be accountable. Not only Nawaz, but others who helped destroy Pakistan and its Constitution.

 

[hnuter555]

Re: we need another swat style operation in karachi clean up

i think it was wrong operation there was not legtimate reason to do this sort of operaiton in them days however MQM provided excuses for this operation and still they are hanging on to same sort of politics of intemdiation
therefore as [altaf] said we have talibalinazation in karachi so i think we need another sweeping operation to get rid of so called liberal taliban from karachi

its time for MQM to quit politics of intemdiation and come to mian stream politics and learn how to argue with out gun other wise its gone be disaster for pakistan [rehman-malik]

 

[irfan123]

@Zaidi:

Yes, you are right, this is THE month of Ramadhan, no body should go to the wrong way especially in this month. May Allah give all of us ability to face the truth.

Before going into any further details, can you please let me know how come the operation was legitimate? Can you give any reference if it is written in the constituition of Pakistan that without taking permission from an elected prime minister and democratic govt., army can start killing to the people of Pakistan based on false evidences (this is proven now that Jinnahpur was a drama stated by the same generals now).
So, can you justify it in the court with proper references?

MIND IT PLEASE:
I AM NOT TALKING HERE ANY MQM OR MUSHARAF.(They must be hung if they have committed any crime provided if they are proven guilty by the court)
I AM TALKING HERE RULE OF LAW IN PAKISTAN.
I AM TALKING HERE HUMANITY, JUSTICE, PAKISTAN AND PAKISTANIYAT HERE.
I AM TALKING ISLAM HERE IN THE MONTH OF RAMADHAN.

Pakpatriot:

You can't find anyone more defender of the rule of law in Pakistan. When you have a local authority who stand helpless and the Murderers are rooming around in the cities shooting on will. When every Morning , you find the deadbodies of innocent Citizens by the side of the Streets, When Thugs start to breaking the houses and looting them , when thugs on bikes snatching the Jewellery from the hands of womens in daylighht time, the ordinary action won't resolve the situation. You know very well that this is what was happening in karachi in day light. I am not going to justify the action of disclosing the map of Jinnah Pur, but I honestly beleive that the operation was needed and it brought back the peace in Karachi .The rule of law was not maintained in Karachi during that time and someone had to do something to cleanup the mess. Now it happens that MQM and its workers were invloved with criminal activities and they were getting scott free while MQM was in power. As I said to you before, I wish if they had brought the criminals to the courts but some of the elements were very powerful and voilent. Of Course, many innocents lost their lives as well.

As far as the Torture houses is concerned, You can look it in to the newspapers and Altaf Also issued statement during that time apologizing to the Pakistani nation. what was that ? I hope it wasn't another non serious drama from actor in London.

As I have wathed this show, the both General didn't say that the operation was illegit. They however, dis say that ( one of them) as per his research, the Map Of Jinnah Pur was concoted by Army General to malign MQM. However, the actual operation wasn't only against MQM, but it happened that MQM workers were found to be in those illegal Activities.

And Pakpatriot, you know that MQM is not an angel party or party of angels. There must be some sort of command and control structure existed and still exists under the unit incharges where they make the call for the death and live of many people from above orders.

The rule of the law in Pakistan should must prevailed. If these army General fabricated the evidence and stories , they should be brought to justice including Nawaz Sharif and his Ministers. I like them all to be accountable. Not only Nawaz, but others who helped destroy Pakistan and its Constitution.

Zaidi apna time wast na kar......................kitni bhi khsosih karley................nawaz sharif ko achaaa or masoom sabhi nhi karsaktaa............or kinit hi khosish karley Musharraf ya MQM ko bora sabith nahi karsaktaaaaaaaaaaaaa dont waste ur time................specially dont wast ur time for nawaz ganja wo lotera hai mugar tumko phir bhi kuch nahi dega muqaa mila tu tum ko bhi lot kar kha jayega or khegaa key mujhey tu pata naih nahi thaa yeh tu militry ney kya hai tumharey sath......so becarefull with two face nawaz zameer farosh..........

 

[shaheedchoudry]

irfan123,
WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER ANYTHING WITHOUT CALLING OTHERS NAMES. ITS NOT HARD TO FIGURE OUT YOUR EDUCATION AND INTELLIGENCE.

 

[sanatariq79]

I Think PML-N Must Consider On The Social Security of Pakistan.........It is totally clear now that Altaf Hussain or MQM was not wrong at all.........They proved to be better Paksitani among all political leaders..............They have better MNA's And MPA's And Hard Working Mayors..........And They Are Not Like PML N Who Raped Women............Smmuggled Bottles Of Wine..........Harsh Attitude Towards Police And Watching Mujras In DENMARK

 

[PakPatriot1]

@Zaidi:
So, to cut this long dicussion short the bottom line is this:

YOU WANT "LICENSE TO KILL ON THE SPOT" ANY ONE YOU THINK HE IS A MURDERER OR CRIMINAL.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND:

I WANT FULL INVESTIGATION AND PRESENT THE FINDINGS TO THE COURT AND LET THE COURT DECIDE IF THE PERSON IS CRIMINAL OR NOT.

IF THE ADMINISTRATION IS NOT CAPABLE TO CONTROL THE SITUATION, THEN THEY MUST ALSO BE ACCOUNTED FOR NOT FULL FILLING THE RESPONSIBILITIES.THIS STILL DOESN'T GIVE ANYONE A RIGHT TO KILL ANOTHER PERSON.

LICENSE TO KILL, NOT FOR ME, NOT FOR ANY CIVILIZED SOCIETY MY DEAR. MAY BE IN JUNGLE....YES.

IF YOU STILL INSIST ON YOUR STAND THEN WHAT AMERICAN DRONES ARE DOING IN OUR AREAS SHOULD ALSO BE TAKEN AS LEGITEMIZED. THEY ARE ALSO KILLING OUR PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY PROOF. THEY MIGHT KILL ONE CRIMINAL AND TEN INNOCENTS. ARE YOU WITH THEM OR WITH INNOCENT MARTYRS.

LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE WHO ARE READING THIS POST.

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

@Zaidi:
So, to cut this long dicussion short the bottom line is this:

YOU WANT "LICENSE TO KILL ON THE SPOT" ANY ONE YOU THINK HE IS A MURDERER OR CRIMINAL.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND:

I WANT FULL INVESTIGATION AND PRESENT THE FINDINGS TO THE COURT AND LET THE COURT DECIDE IF THE PERSON IS CRIMINAL OR NOT.

IF THE ADMINISTRATION IS NOT CAPABLE TO CONTROL THE SITUATION, THEN THEY MUST ALSO BE ACCOUNTED FOR NOT FULL FILLING THE RESPONSIBILITIES.THIS STILL DOESN'T GIVE ANYONE A RIGHT TO KILL ANOTHER PERSON.

LICENSE TO KILL, NOT FOR ME, NOT FOR ANY CIVILIZED SOCIETY MY DEAR. MAY BE IN JUNGLE....YES.

IF YOU STILL INSIST ON YOUR STAND THEN WHAT AMERICAN DRONES ARE DOING IN OUR AREAS SHOULD ALSO BE TAKEN AS LEGITEMIZED. THEY ARE ALSO KILLING OUR PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY PROOF. THEY MIGHT KILL ONE CRIMINAL AND TEN INNOCENTS. ARE YOU WITH THEM OR WITH INNOCENT MARTYRS.

LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE WHO ARE READING THIS POST.

Pakpatriot:

My stance was right from the day one that if we are to live like a civilized nation,a nation who cares about our laws and our constitution, then we should must try Musharraf . If we don't do that .it means that in Pakistan , we don't care about our laws and our Constitution.

As far as the Drones attacks are concerns, the lot of innocents people lost their lives bacuse of them. It is now established that Musharraf had an agreement with Amercians and allowed them to carry on these attacks which present Governemnt is also following.This is another discussion that if another foreign country has a right to carry on these attacks in a soverign courty or not .

If the law has its power, those criminals shouldn't have been left alone long enough to cause any harm to the society.The criminal got protection of the present Government at that time. As Musharraf didn't allow the investigation of Maty 12 killing, the MQM never allowed their criminals to be apprehended. It is unfortunate that the Army had to be introduced, but It did calm down the situation and peace returned back to Karachi.As I have said before, it would have been much nice if the Local Authority had taken the control of the situation, however, there were elements within the provincial Governemnt who were protecting the criminals. It has happened many time, that any operation starts with good intention and end up badly brusied because of the execution failure.The fabrication of Jinnah Pur's map taged this operation as a revenge operation which was started as a cleanup operation.

As far as given licence to kill, no one should be able to issue that licence, but in Pakistan, this licence was issued many times, and unfortunately MQM was at times also the part of the ruling alliant who issued this licence.

 

[PakPatriot1]

@Zaidi:
So, to cut this long dicussion short the bottom line is this:

YOU WANT "LICENSE TO KILL ON THE SPOT" ANY ONE YOU THINK HE IS A MURDERER OR CRIMINAL.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND:

I WANT FULL INVESTIGATION AND PRESENT THE FINDINGS TO THE COURT AND LET THE COURT DECIDE IF THE PERSON IS CRIMINAL OR NOT.

IF THE ADMINISTRATION IS NOT CAPABLE TO CONTROL THE SITUATION, THEN THEY MUST ALSO BE ACCOUNTED FOR NOT FULL FILLING THE RESPONSIBILITIES.THIS STILL DOESN'T GIVE ANYONE A RIGHT TO KILL ANOTHER PERSON.

LICENSE TO KILL, NOT FOR ME, NOT FOR ANY CIVILIZED SOCIETY MY DEAR. MAY BE IN JUNGLE....YES.

IF YOU STILL INSIST ON YOUR STAND THEN WHAT AMERICAN DRONES ARE DOING IN OUR AREAS SHOULD ALSO BE TAKEN AS LEGITEMIZED. THEY ARE ALSO KILLING OUR PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY PROOF. THEY MIGHT KILL ONE CRIMINAL AND TEN INNOCENTS. ARE YOU WITH THEM OR WITH INNOCENT MARTYRS.

LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE WHO ARE READING THIS POST.

Pakpatriot:

My stance was right from the day one that if we are to live like a civilized nation,a nation who cares about our laws and our constitution, then we should must try Musharraf . If we don't do that .it means that in Pakistan , we don't care about our laws and our Constitution.

As far as the Drones attacks are concerns, the lot of innocents people lost their lives bacuse of them. It is now established that Musharraf had an agreement with Amercians and allowed them to carry on these attacks which present Governemnt is also following.This is another discussion that if another foreign country has a right to carry on these attacks in a soverign courty or not .

If the law has its power, those criminals shouldn't have been left alone long enough to cause any harm to the society.The criminal got protection of the present Government at that time. As Musharraf didn't allow the investigation of Maty 12 killing, the MQM never allowed their criminals to be apprehended. It is unfortunate that the Army had to be introduced, but It did calm down the situation and peace returned back to Karachi.As I have said before, it would have been much nice if the Local Authority had taken the control of the situation, however, there were elements within the provincial Governemnt who were protecting the criminals. It has happened many time, that any operation starts with good intention and end up badly brusied because of the execution failure.The fabrication of Jinnah Pur's map taged this operation as a revenge operation which was started as a cleanup operation.

As far as given licence to kill, no one should be able to issue that licence, but in Pakistan, this licence was issued many times, and unfortunately MQM was at times also the part of the ruling alliant who issued this licence.

@ Zaidi:
I told you I am not talking here MQM and Musharaf. I am just talking here rule of law. But you again have dragged them into our discussion so I am telling you if MQM ever issued licenses to kill and you are advocating this act in a different perspective then what is the difference between you and them? Both of you are on the same boat. Why this hue and cry is for?

Failure of local authority administration must not give anyone a right AT ANY COST to start killing other people (may be they are accused criminals, yes).

I repeat once more, if MQM and Musharaf have ever committed any crime hang them BUT ONLY after following the right procedures and full implementation of law of this country. Otherwise close all the courts and give your licences to kill everbody and enjoy jungle's law.

That's it, no more discussion. Iftaar time is getting close now.Thanks.