Punjab Ka Muqadma [Debate on New Provinces in Punjab]
- Thread starter Rana Tahir Mahmood
- Start date
Rana Tahir Mahmood
Senator (1k+ posts)
Re: Takhat-e-Lahore ks Mohasara - by Irshad Arif
http://ejang.jang.com.pk//4-28-2011/lahore/images/06_03.gif
http://ejang.jang.com.pk//4-28-2011/lahore/images/06_03.gif
Narcissist
Banned
Re: Punjab Ka Muqadma - Javed Choudry
I think there is no harm in making new Provinces out of all big provinces.
Punjab could be divided into 3 parts : Pothohar + Seriaki + Bahawalpur + Punjab
End of the day real Punjab is including following divisions: Lahore + Gujaranwala+ Sialkot+ Sargodha+ Sahiwal+ Faisalaabad(excluding Jhang district)
Pothohar: Rawalpindi division(excluding Gujarat)
Seraiki : Dera Ghazi Khan + Multan division.
Once Punjab is divided other provinces cannot stand a chance for the demand of new provinces. Likewise Sindh can be divided into 3 parts.
I think there is no harm in making new Provinces out of all big provinces.
Punjab could be divided into 3 parts : Pothohar + Seriaki + Bahawalpur + Punjab
End of the day real Punjab is including following divisions: Lahore + Gujaranwala+ Sialkot+ Sargodha+ Sahiwal+ Faisalaabad(excluding Jhang district)
Pothohar: Rawalpindi division(excluding Gujarat)
Seraiki : Dera Ghazi Khan + Multan division.
Once Punjab is divided other provinces cannot stand a chance for the demand of new provinces. Likewise Sindh can be divided into 3 parts.
Young_Blood
Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Takhat-e-Lahore ks Mohasara - by Irshad Arif
Mujhey nahi maloom k aakhir PML (n) Ko saanp soong gaya hai ya pml (n) ke kisi ne bolti bund ker de hoi hai,,
Pakistan ke ye history hai k jo insan kisi se dub k rehta hai ussey mazeed dabaya jata hai, agar pml (n) issi terha khamosh rahi, to phir BABAR SHETAAN jo 5 soobo ke baat kerta hai wo bun k rahein gay,,, PML(N) uss waqt jagay ge jab uss k paas sirf lahore aur uss k aas paas k city reh jaein gay,,,
mujhey lagta hai k pml (n) aainda election main buri terha nakaam ho ge, WAH re Zardari,, kya siasat khaili tu ne,, PML (N) ko kahi ka nahi chora,,,
Nawaz Shareef ko 100 saal bhe lag jaien to bhe wo siasat k gur nahi seakh sakta,,,,
Mujhey nahi maloom k aakhir PML (n) Ko saanp soong gaya hai ya pml (n) ke kisi ne bolti bund ker de hoi hai,,
Pakistan ke ye history hai k jo insan kisi se dub k rehta hai ussey mazeed dabaya jata hai, agar pml (n) issi terha khamosh rahi, to phir BABAR SHETAAN jo 5 soobo ke baat kerta hai wo bun k rahein gay,,, PML(N) uss waqt jagay ge jab uss k paas sirf lahore aur uss k aas paas k city reh jaein gay,,,
mujhey lagta hai k pml (n) aainda election main buri terha nakaam ho ge, WAH re Zardari,, kya siasat khaili tu ne,, PML (N) ko kahi ka nahi chora,,,
Nawaz Shareef ko 100 saal bhe lag jaien to bhe wo siasat k gur nahi seakh sakta,,,,
paki-lover
MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Punjab Ka Muqadma - Javed Choudry
Nice column by javed ch hum punjabi hi boltay hai sindhi punjabi pathan balochi sab bhai bhai hum punjabio ney kabhi punjabi card nahi banaya
Nice column by javed ch hum punjabi hi boltay hai sindhi punjabi pathan balochi sab bhai bhai hum punjabio ney kabhi punjabi card nahi banaya
canadian
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
What If Punjab Is Too Large ???
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Editor: Akhtar M. Faruqui[/FONT]
What if Punjab Is Too Large?
By Dr Manzur Ejaz
Washington , DC
By Dr Manzur Ejaz
Washington , DC
The argument given for the creation of a separate Saraiki province has no validity if we examine the past experience within Indo-Pak or in the rest of the world. However, if the Saraiki province is being created on the basis of linguistic differentiation and presumed cultural differences, then it should be recognized as a principle and implemented in the rest of the country as well. As a matter of fact, it would be followed by the creation of other provinces on a linguistic basis. Even some political parties like the MQM are hiding their ultimate agenda to set a precedent to the follow-up.
The major argument in favor of breaking up Punjab into smaller provinces is that the province is too large as it currently exists. California, Texas, Florida and New York states have 37, 25, 19, 18 million people respectively, while there are eight US states that have less than one million, and North Dakota and Vermont have populations of around half a million. But does this mean that South Dakota is being run more efficiently than even New York City, a part of the New York state? Most of the smaller southern states are poor, badly managed and serve as the hub of extreme conservatism because a tiny elite have unlimited influence over smaller populations.
This is also true within Pakistan. Whatever is being heard from professionals working in international agencies is that Punjab, since Nawaz Sharifs days, is a better managed province. Along with the Sharif brothers, people give a lot of credit to Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi for running an efficient administration in Punjab. On the contrary, smaller provinces, without naming names, are extreme examples of poor governance. Therefore, the rationale that a bigger province should be broken into smaller ones based on efficiency is false and baseless.
In the last couple of decades, many tehsils (sub-districts) have been upgraded to break up large districts. For example, Sahiwal was divided, adding two new districts, Okara and Pakpattan. The question is: has management improved or just resulted in additional administrative layers and tripling administrative costs? Other than the local, landed aristocracy and bureaucracy, who has benefited by such moves? Has any cost-benefit study been conducted on this change? I do not think so.
To support the case for creating a new province, Afghanistans example is often quoted. Have the Afghan provinces ever been governed even before the 1970s better than Pakistani Punjab or even other Pakistani provinces, which are much larger than their counterparts in the northern neighbor? Malaysia is another country quoted more often. Again, were these provinces being run better and, furthermore, what is the concept of province in Afghanistan or Malaysia? I think we are comparing oranges and apples because Afghan provinces are like our districts with a different setup. In India and Pakistan, provinces have legislative assemblies, chief ministers, governors and an army of provincial cabinet ministers. Therefore, creating new provinces multiplies the number of bureaucrats, administrative staff and hence the recurrent costs.
Big size is also blamed for Punjabs influence in Pakistan through the political setup and domination of the military. Presently, the PPP is ruling the federation having won seats in smaller, as well as the largest province. At the moment, the highest political posts in the Centre are held by politicians from Sindh and the would-be Saraiki area. Even the governor of Punjab belongs to the Saraiki area. Furthermore, Punjabi politicians are very diverse and have never been in one party to influence the Center in one direction. Therefore, the notion of size being the basis of Punjabi influence is false. However, if the central Punjab has the largest chunk of population, then that cannot be changed even after creating the Saraiki province.
As far as Punjabi influence through the military is concerned, that should have been thought out by the wizards who created Pakistan because most of the Muslim military comprised Punjabis before 1947. As a matter of fact, the bulk of the military comes from five or six districts of northern Punjab and that is not going to change even after the Saraiki province is created. If these districts are put into another province, namely Pothohar, then it will be renamed as the Pothohari army. Furthermore, the ratio of army men from Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is massively understated.
While arguments of size and efficiency hold no grounds, the linguistic and cultural differentiation is the only remaining valid reason for creating a Saraiki province. As a principle, every enlightened person supports nationality rights without any ifs and buts. However, it is almost certain that instead of Saraiki, Urdu will be the official language of the new province: the sajjada nashins (guardians of shrines) of Multan are not known to be fond of the peoples languages for the last ten centuries. If that is going to be the case, then the linguistic pretext is irrelevant as well. Ethnic differentiation is also a doubtful denominator because the people of ex-Bahawalpur state, even Saraiki speaking, want their state to be recognized as a separate province. Nawab Salahuddin, heir to the state, has negated the ethnic basis by declaring that migrants, settlers and indigenous people are equal and united.
If the PPP is trying to contain Nawaz Sharifs influence, then it is an extremely unwise step. Such decisions that have long-term effects should not be taken to get rid of temporary difficulties. The role of the middle classes of Punjab has been crucial in the present Pakistans democratic movements. It is this area where persons from Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry to Mukhtaran Mai find supporters. The fear is that the oppressed people of the feudal belt of Punjab will lose their supporters like Pakistan did when East Pakistan broke away; Pakistanis lost the best vanguard of democratic rights. Nevertheless, we wish good luck to the Saraiki people if they think the Saraiki province would fulfill their desire of nationality rights even if it is transformed into a feudal fiefdom. (http://pakistanlink.org/Commentary/2011/Apr11/29/04.HTM)
The major argument in favor of breaking up Punjab into smaller provinces is that the province is too large as it currently exists. California, Texas, Florida and New York states have 37, 25, 19, 18 million people respectively, while there are eight US states that have less than one million, and North Dakota and Vermont have populations of around half a million. But does this mean that South Dakota is being run more efficiently than even New York City, a part of the New York state? Most of the smaller southern states are poor, badly managed and serve as the hub of extreme conservatism because a tiny elite have unlimited influence over smaller populations.
This is also true within Pakistan. Whatever is being heard from professionals working in international agencies is that Punjab, since Nawaz Sharifs days, is a better managed province. Along with the Sharif brothers, people give a lot of credit to Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi for running an efficient administration in Punjab. On the contrary, smaller provinces, without naming names, are extreme examples of poor governance. Therefore, the rationale that a bigger province should be broken into smaller ones based on efficiency is false and baseless.
In the last couple of decades, many tehsils (sub-districts) have been upgraded to break up large districts. For example, Sahiwal was divided, adding two new districts, Okara and Pakpattan. The question is: has management improved or just resulted in additional administrative layers and tripling administrative costs? Other than the local, landed aristocracy and bureaucracy, who has benefited by such moves? Has any cost-benefit study been conducted on this change? I do not think so.
To support the case for creating a new province, Afghanistans example is often quoted. Have the Afghan provinces ever been governed even before the 1970s better than Pakistani Punjab or even other Pakistani provinces, which are much larger than their counterparts in the northern neighbor? Malaysia is another country quoted more often. Again, were these provinces being run better and, furthermore, what is the concept of province in Afghanistan or Malaysia? I think we are comparing oranges and apples because Afghan provinces are like our districts with a different setup. In India and Pakistan, provinces have legislative assemblies, chief ministers, governors and an army of provincial cabinet ministers. Therefore, creating new provinces multiplies the number of bureaucrats, administrative staff and hence the recurrent costs.
Big size is also blamed for Punjabs influence in Pakistan through the political setup and domination of the military. Presently, the PPP is ruling the federation having won seats in smaller, as well as the largest province. At the moment, the highest political posts in the Centre are held by politicians from Sindh and the would-be Saraiki area. Even the governor of Punjab belongs to the Saraiki area. Furthermore, Punjabi politicians are very diverse and have never been in one party to influence the Center in one direction. Therefore, the notion of size being the basis of Punjabi influence is false. However, if the central Punjab has the largest chunk of population, then that cannot be changed even after creating the Saraiki province.
As far as Punjabi influence through the military is concerned, that should have been thought out by the wizards who created Pakistan because most of the Muslim military comprised Punjabis before 1947. As a matter of fact, the bulk of the military comes from five or six districts of northern Punjab and that is not going to change even after the Saraiki province is created. If these districts are put into another province, namely Pothohar, then it will be renamed as the Pothohari army. Furthermore, the ratio of army men from Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is massively understated.
While arguments of size and efficiency hold no grounds, the linguistic and cultural differentiation is the only remaining valid reason for creating a Saraiki province. As a principle, every enlightened person supports nationality rights without any ifs and buts. However, it is almost certain that instead of Saraiki, Urdu will be the official language of the new province: the sajjada nashins (guardians of shrines) of Multan are not known to be fond of the peoples languages for the last ten centuries. If that is going to be the case, then the linguistic pretext is irrelevant as well. Ethnic differentiation is also a doubtful denominator because the people of ex-Bahawalpur state, even Saraiki speaking, want their state to be recognized as a separate province. Nawab Salahuddin, heir to the state, has negated the ethnic basis by declaring that migrants, settlers and indigenous people are equal and united.
If the PPP is trying to contain Nawaz Sharifs influence, then it is an extremely unwise step. Such decisions that have long-term effects should not be taken to get rid of temporary difficulties. The role of the middle classes of Punjab has been crucial in the present Pakistans democratic movements. It is this area where persons from Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry to Mukhtaran Mai find supporters. The fear is that the oppressed people of the feudal belt of Punjab will lose their supporters like Pakistan did when East Pakistan broke away; Pakistanis lost the best vanguard of democratic rights. Nevertheless, we wish good luck to the Saraiki people if they think the Saraiki province would fulfill their desire of nationality rights even if it is transformed into a feudal fiefdom. (http://pakistanlink.org/Commentary/2011/Apr11/29/04.HTM)
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gazoomartian
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Re: What If Punjab Is Too Large ???
punjab must not break up or pakistan's break up will be imminent in the long run.
The shosha of breaking Punjab has been started by PPP/MQM to destabilize the province because of PLM-N govt in Punjab, which the PPP/MQM can not stand.
yeh bdbakht MQM/PPP waley mulk ko bech deingey apni khatir.
I favor making a ONE UNIT (no provinces) for the reasons that provinces create separatist movements. Look at India, how many provinces are dying for help to secede. I rather have each city run under the control of 'district' (or county in Canada/US). This will cut expenditure of running useless provincial govts, eating away people's money. Now I have not thought of its ramifications in detail, this is what I like.
In old times, there were cities, like Median, Mecca, damishq, Khurasaan, mysore, Agra, Dilli, Calcatta, etc
Life would be a lot easier, and beautiful if we get rid of these fasads of provincialism.
punjab must not break up or pakistan's break up will be imminent in the long run.
The shosha of breaking Punjab has been started by PPP/MQM to destabilize the province because of PLM-N govt in Punjab, which the PPP/MQM can not stand.
yeh bdbakht MQM/PPP waley mulk ko bech deingey apni khatir.
I favor making a ONE UNIT (no provinces) for the reasons that provinces create separatist movements. Look at India, how many provinces are dying for help to secede. I rather have each city run under the control of 'district' (or county in Canada/US). This will cut expenditure of running useless provincial govts, eating away people's money. Now I have not thought of its ramifications in detail, this is what I like.
In old times, there were cities, like Median, Mecca, damishq, Khurasaan, mysore, Agra, Dilli, Calcatta, etc
Life would be a lot easier, and beautiful if we get rid of these fasads of provincialism.
Rana Tahir Mahmood
Senator (1k+ posts)
Taqseem-e-Punjab Saazish ka Hissa - by Tiyaba Zia
http://www.nawaiwaqt.com.pk/E_Paper/30-04-2011/Lahore/p2-1_1.gif
http://www.nawaiwaqt.com.pk/E_Paper/30-04-2011/Lahore/p2-1_1.gif
canadian
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Punjab Ka Muqadma - Javed Choudry
If division of Punjab is being considered by Zardari Govt then why not Sindh also ? Those who are in favour of splitting Punjab in two are opposing the same formula for Sindh,Why ????.
The most unfortunate thing is that those Federal Minsters who are in favour of this division are Punjabi's themselves.
If division of Punjab is being considered by Zardari Govt then why not Sindh also ? Those who are in favour of splitting Punjab in two are opposing the same formula for Sindh,Why ????.
The most unfortunate thing is that those Federal Minsters who are in favour of this division are Punjabi's themselves.
Rana Tahir Mahmood
Senator (1k+ posts)
Rana Tahir Mahmood
Senator (1k+ posts)
Rana Tahir Mahmood
Senator (1k+ posts)
Rana Tahir Mahmood
Senator (1k+ posts)
Rana Tahir Mahmood
Senator (1k+ posts)
