Umar Ibn Khattab, Strictly A Quran Only Khalifah.

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Well recently it was claimed that this concept that Muslims following only the Quran is somewhat a very new concept brought around by the "enemies of Islam" to destroy it. Lets look at one of the most famous and well revered early Muslims, one of the best companions of the Prophet and the second Khalifa of the Muslims.

Umar Ibn Khattab.

Since he was one of the best companions of the prophet maybe second only to Abu Bakr then surely there must be a massive number of hadith transmitted from him. In the 1000s most probably. But in reality unique hadith graded as sahih between Bukhari and Muslim is only 50. Yes you read that right, not 500 but only 50. I wonder why?

Even the hadith suggests he wasn't in favour of anything other than the Quran.

(Sahih al-Bukhari, Book of Knowledge, Hadith 114)

Narrated by Ibn Abbas (RA):
When the illness of Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) became worse, he said: “Bring me a pen and paper so I may write something for you after which you will never go astray.” But Umar said, “The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have the Book of Allah with us; that should be sufficient for us.”

So Umar didn't even let the Prophet himself while he was alive write something other than the Quran itself!

Ibn Sa'd (d. 230 AH) is one of the earliest biographical historians of the companions and successors in his book al-Ṭabaqāt reports that: Initially Umar intended to compile the hadith of the Messenger ﷺ and consulted the companions. But then, after reflection, he abandoned the idea, fearing it would divert people from the Qur'an.

In the "Restriction Of Knowledge" by Al-Khateeb it said that Umar al Khattab heard that certain books circulated among the people, he asked people to see these books so they assumed he wanted to read them, so they bought them to him and he burnt them. Umar forbid narrators from spreading Hadith.

In “A Brief History Of Damascus” by Ibn Manzoor and “Beginning and End” by Ibn Katheer they mentioned that Umar Al Khattab told Abu Huraira “They must stop this talk of the prophet of God or I will stomp them into the ground” and he told Ka’b “They must stop this talk or I will send them to the land of the monkeys” and in “the memorial of the hadith masters” of Imam Al Dhahabi he chronicled how Umar imprisoned three people: Ibn Massoud, Abu Al Dardaa and Abu Massoud Al Ansari. He said “You have talked too much about the Prophet of God” and in the ‘the book of guidance” of Abu Yali Al Khalili it mentions how Omar Bin Al Khatab imprisoned a number of people among them Abu Huraira and said “They told stories from the prophet of God” and they stayed in his prisons until he died.

Ibn ʿAbd al-Barr (d. 463 AH), a Maliki scholar Umar expresses concern that written hadith might overshadow the Qur'an.

So taking all this into account we can safely say, Umar was against the hadith, its collection, even imprisoning people for narrating too much of it. And this was the case with all the Khulafa Rashidun, the early Muslims later most of the Ummayyad and Abbasid Khalifas. There was not official ban on hadith, but it was considered a very harmful taboo.
 

observer-x

MPA (400+ posts)
Well recently it was claimed that this concept that Muslims following only the Quran is somewhat a very new concept brought around by the "enemies of Islam" to destroy it. Lets look at one of the most famous and well revered early Muslims, one of the best companions of the Prophet and the second Khalifa of the Muslims.

Umar Ibn Khattab.

Since he was one of the best companions of the prophet maybe second only to Abu Bakr then surely there must be a massive number of hadith transmitted from him. In the 1000s most probably. But in reality unique hadith graded as sahih between Bukhari and Muslim is only 50. Yes you read that right, not 500 but only 50. I wonder why?

Even the hadith suggests he wasn't in favour of anything other than the Quran.

(Sahih al-Bukhari, Book of Knowledge, Hadith 114)

Narrated by Ibn Abbas (RA):
When the illness of Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) became worse, he said: “Bring me a pen and paper so I may write something for you after which you will never go astray.” But Umar said, “The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have the Book of Allah with us; that should be sufficient for us.”

So Umar didn't even let the Prophet himself while he was alive write something other than the Quran itself!

Ibn Sa'd (d. 230 AH) is one of the earliest biographical historians of the companions and successors in his book al-Ṭabaqāt reports that: Initially Umar intended to compile the hadith of the Messenger ﷺ and consulted the companions. But then, after reflection, he abandoned the idea, fearing it would divert people from the Qur'an.

In the "Restriction Of Knowledge" by Al-Khateeb it said that Umar al Khattab heard that certain books circulated among the people, he asked people to see these books so they assumed he wanted to read them, so they bought them to him and he burnt them. Umar forbid narrators from spreading Hadith.

In “A Brief History Of Damascus” by Ibn Manzoor and “Beginning and End” by Ibn Katheer they mentioned that Umar Al Khattab told Abu Huraira “They must stop this talk of the prophet of God or I will stomp them into the ground” and he told Ka’b “They must stop this talk or I will send them to the land of the monkeys” and in “the memorial of the hadith masters” of Imam Al Dhahabi he chronicled how Umar imprisoned three people: Ibn Massoud, Abu Al Dardaa and Abu Massoud Al Ansari. He said “You have talked too much about the Prophet of God” and in the ‘the book of guidance” of Abu Yali Al Khalili it mentions how Omar Bin Al Khatab imprisoned a number of people among them Abu Huraira and said “They told stories from the prophet of God” and they stayed in his prisons until he died.

Ibn ʿAbd al-Barr (d. 463 AH), a Maliki scholar Umar expresses concern that written hadith might overshadow the Qur'an.

So taking all this into account we can safely say, Umar was against the hadith, its collection, even imprisoning people for narrating too much of it. And this was the case with all the Khulafa Rashidun, the early Muslims later most of the Ummayyad and Abbasid Khalifas. There was not official ban on hadith, but it was considered a very harmful taboo.
Ok so you follow Umar RA in every thing he did right? Including salah, zakah, establishment of Islam...
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
So why do you reference him?
You're from the dawah bro gang innit' Guv'nor! Why do you quote the Bible to the Christians because to tell them you are following the wrong deen. So I am quoting from your scholars and religious text to prove to you a point.
 

observer-x

MPA (400+ posts)
Why do you quote the Bible to the Christians
Good question, our position is bible has hints of truth, not everything could be trusted but things that match with Quran we take it from bible. Not everything.

Why don't you do the same? Things that match with Quran when it comes to hadith - you take it, leave the rest for scholars to decide.
 

atensari

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Or you could simply just read my original post till the end. Because it already your stupid strawman question because I know how you people think and had already anticipated it.
So, other Khalifahs were not "strictly Quran only"? And we don't care about your opinion about second Khalifah.
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Why don't you do the same? Things that match with Quran when it comes to hadith
If they match the Quran, then they are already in the Quran, so what's the point of hadith then? Why do I have to go outside the Quran for the same thing? You haven't the read the Hadith so you're not even qualified to make that statement. I have. And I can tell you yes there are many things in the hadith that match the Quran. So what? There are many things in the Baghwat Geeta and Vedas that also match the Quran. I'm sure I can find quite a lot in almost any religious scripture that matches with the Quran, because inherently no religion tells people to be unrighteous.

leave the rest for scholars to decide.
Why? Who are these scholars and apparently to put it diplomatically they have done a f##k all of a job so far and continue to do so. Made a right mess of it. As explained in detail in my previous two threads about Frabri. Many even modern day scholars are sick of it and have begged to clear these matters for once and for all.

Since you haven't read the whole of Bukhari, let me tell you at best, on the most favourable day on the best of terms, doing as much extreme taysir and ruksah as possible, hadith is very vague early Islamic history as told by anecdotal reports by 1000s of people to be taken with a huge grain of salt as they are not recorded first hand eyewitness testimony. But there is no deen or fiqh to be found in it.

On its worst day it is nothing but absolute garbage filled with insulting blasphemous fairytales.
 

observer-x

MPA (400+ posts)
If they match the Quran, then they are already in the Quran, so what's the point of hadith then?
Point is the same for things you don't have answers for. Even petty questions like how you're immune to satanic whispers? Hadith tells us the answers to all those. Stick to ones Quran approves so that you don't live in a lost position you're in right now.
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Point is the same for things you don't have answers for. Even petty questions like how you're immune to satanic whispers? Hadith tells us the answers to all those. Stick to ones Quran approves so that you don't live in a lost position you're in right now.
And that is our bone of contention You believe this because your scholars tells you to believe this. That Quran needs explanation and that the hadith explains it. Technically even your hadith doesn't say this.

While we on the other had believe the Quran without any if's and buts when it says it is a fully detailed clear book and it is the أَحْسَنَ تَفْسِيرًا and the أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ so we literally don't need any external explanations or guides, when he have the best of the best with us
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
This is false. You're making many false assumptions.
Once again you've proved that not only do you not know anything from the Quran and have openly insulted it, but you don't know jack about hadith either. Because no hadith explicitly says that hadith explains the Quran and if there is then please quote it here. I'll even help you out, there is a hadith, not from the Sahih Sittah which says something like the Prophet use to explain the Quran but there is no hadith that says that the Quran needs hadith to explain it. Most welcomed to prove me wrong.

And this also shows your cheap trickery on how you only nitpick things you think ( wrongly I might add ) you can win in an argument about, even when that isn't even the main subject just a tiny supporting side note. And discarding the entire rest of the post and the actual subject of discussion.
 

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