USA+Zionists Jews+India's plot

[aBis]

@paris2012
"chori ka maal" maal if u call the broken formula than you should be ashamed of every single thing you call progress of your country, from your pirated software to your textile industry, later you bought the softwares but initially you used theft to process on them, we got the formula and we worked on it, you won't find the different because you don't want to believe but the fact we have it so deal with it.

These is no economy in PAK. You live on donations from IMF , China and US

already explained this in previous posts

Really , can name some ??

cricket, squash , hockey

Drinking is not considered under entertainment in India . May be in PAK it is

drinking is forbidden in Pak, it is a form of entertainment otherwise they don't serve liqour in clubs, i get the feeling that you are one the people who has no clue what they are talking about but just keep on mindless jabber..

@houseofdiamondltd

for your post i already replied in that particular thread

Your ideology of renaming Karachi to Jinnahpur is basiacally creating a state for urdu-speaking people which will be governed by MQM, this will create civil war within Pakistan which is the last thing which our country needs.
Leave the name as it is just unite people, give them their rights. Give justice to people who have been affected by the riots from MQM, PPP, ANP or any other political organisation. In short be a better Muslim and all the problems will go away. A country or city or any place should only be renamed if it is offensive to certain sect of people. Karachi is a historical name, it is significant and don't make it sound like some village so stop messing with it, we love it as it is.

I vote against your petition buddy!!!

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3175

 

[paris2012]

@abis

drinking is forbidden in Pak, it is a form of entertainment otherwise they don't serve liqour in clubs, i get the feeling that you are one the people who has no clue what they are talking about but just keep on mindless jabber..

Person who considers only drinking as entertainment needs some education .Pak should ban Taliban , suicide bombers , terrorist camps that would help them. It doesn't make any sense if read Namaz 5 times a day , don't drink but in the name of God kill innocent people.

 

[aBis]

@abis

drinking is forbidden in Pak, it is a form of entertainment otherwise they don't serve liqour in clubs, i get the feeling that you are one the people who has no clue what they are talking about but just keep on mindless jabber..

Person who considers only drinking as entertainment needs some education .Pak should ban Taliban , suicide bombers , terrorist camps that would help them. It doesn't make any sense if read Namaz 5 times a day , don't drink but in the name of God kill innocent people.

i never said ONLY, but you definitely need education or social gathering, if its not entertainment than define what it is used for? not medicine or past time!!! used in clubs or parties or celebration(all form of entertainment)
India stop funding them and we will ban them :lol:

 

[sagaciouscorpion]

Let me make one thing clear to you all, there are no hindus in pakistan. There were hindus in pakistan but they are forced to become muslim, If this is not true why do they have muslim name, If they don't convert into islam Pakistanis tortured them tell me this not true, But in india hindus never ever force muslim to convert into hinduism, you will see any muslim has hindu name, as everybody has right to practise there own religion, India is the only country in the world with hundreds of different religion reside door to door without any problems, Before india had problems cause of muslim community and this happens only when this terror are been exported to india from pakistan, Today all muslims in india find themself safe in india rather then pakistan, As india does"nt belong to any Muslims or any Hindu or any type of religion, India Belongs to humans who reside in india. SO please put your right hand, right to your heart and tell me if iam wrong.


I love you brother Can we be friends.

From where did you get this story?

Its absolutely false...

About problems... please dont lie blatantly..

google"Hindu atrocities against minorities" it.. you will find more than 50.000 links...
dont forget burning of churches, mosques, gujrat riots, babu bajrangi and samjhota express...

 

[aBis]

I love you brother Can we be friends.

:) i have nothing against you, just keep an open mind over thinking... there is good and bad everywhere.. you can't blame the whole nation for few people. Just today pm yousuf raza gillani said our goal is to have better relations with india which were disturbed due to mumbai attacks so lets hope for the best. History shows that Pakistan has never played the blame game.

 

[niazi]

houseofdiamond,
who the hell are you even make stupid plans to divide pakistan and call pak army panjabi,panjabis cruel and spread hatred.
people like you should be hanged in public.

 

[abdulhaseeb23]

Re: USA+Zionists Jews+India's plot

Postby abdulhaseeb23 on Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:53 pm
ok now you are going to AQ khan

ok for the time we take your point is right but what about india "" usee tou beegh mein diya hai isreal nai""



Pahle to tu Chori ke maal aur ek proper deal me difference karna sikh.. phir baat karna..

why u just see that paksitan is stoleen


america has also stolen from germany. so why don't you talk about america,, q pathti hai kia america saii
india is stable till now is beacuse america is need india to disintegrate pakistan



US se kiski phathti .. ye bolane ki jarurat nahi hai.. Pak ke sab policy US decide karta.. US drone attack karta hai.. Aur PAk phattu kuchh nahi kar pata.. balki US ke envoy ko Medals deta hai :lol:

paris2012

Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:46 pm

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tum indians ki bakwas sun ker hum nahi sari duniya hasti hai..

agar humari phati hoti na US se tou woh humme neche utar ke marta uper se nahi humari tu goverment coupt hai jo ain ko ijjzat deti hai ek bak public ko chor du tu hum batadeen gai unnhe jis tarah 1965 war mein tum logon ko bataya tha jis army per itna fakhr hae na tumhe woh army humary public se bhi nahi lardh sakti itna fakhr hai na tu bhej ke dehk loo pata chale gaa tumhein aur jahan tak baaat rahi ke pakistan mein zabardasti kerte hai hindu ko muslim banane mein kabhi aa ker sindh mein dehkh loo ke kitne hindu hai aur balouchinstan ke city kusdar mein akar dehk loo phir tumhein pata chale ga kitne hindu hai pakistan mein,, han yeh sach hai ke india mein koi muslim ko force nahi kerta hindu hooone per, agar zinda rehne deen gai tabhi tu force karen gai naa.. agar itni azadi hai india mein tu q gai (cow) ki qurbani per pabandi lagai hai tum logon ne india mein itni azadi hai tu q tamil naidu mein freedom ke lie ladh rahe hai q sikh freedom ladh rahe hai. aur agar humare balochistan mein tumhari govt. insurgencies nahi ker rahi tu kia afghanistan mein kanche khelne ke lie itne consulates khole hoe hai. kabhi indian media ke ellwah bhi kuch dehkoo tu tumhein pata challe ga

 

[paris2012]

@abdulhaseeb23
agar humari phati hoti na US se tou woh humme neche utar ke marta uper se nahi humari tu goverment coupt hai jo ain ko ijjzat deti hai ek bak public ko chor du tu hum batadeen gai unnhe jis tarah 1965 war mein tum logon ko bataya tha jis army per itna fakhr hae na tumhe woh army humary public se bhi nahi lardh sakti itna fakhr hai na tu bhej ke dehk loo pata chale gaa tumhein

US tumhe UPAR se mare ya Niche se mare....MAr to raha hai na tumhari..
Tumhari pahle Taliban ko defeat karke dikhaye tab Indian army ke bare me sochna..
Don't forget 1971 aur Kargil

 

[paris2012]

@aBid

i never said ONLY, but you definitely need education or social gathering, if its not entertainment than define what it is used for? not medicine or past time!!! used in clubs or parties or celebration(all form of entertainment)
India stop funding them and we will ban them

You only brought in drinking when I talked about entertainment(Bollywood , TV , concerts , stage shows). Even Pakis prefer to watch Indian TV and movies compared to Paki.
Taliban , Let are created by Pak Army and ISI and not by India. Now it it back firing on you. US aur Taliban dono tumhari lerahe hai :mrgreen:

 

[abdulhaseeb23]

han tum keh rahe ho america humari le raha abh dehko 8 sal se ladh ker ais ka kia hal hogia abb ais ke khud ke paon kabar mein latak rahe hae misal tumhare samne hai yeh tu america ka hai ke 8 sal se ladh raha hai aur tum kia karo gia tum tu 8 din bhi nahi tik sako gai our samjh ker jawab dou aur tumhari tu humme lene ki zarorat bhi nahi khud tum logon ki aur kitne logon ne phele hi li hoi hai tu lene dene ka hisab maat karo aese hisab karo gia tu boaht se purane hisab khul jaen gai jis mein tum logon ki zilat ke siwah kuch nahi hai

 

[paris2012]

AJ ka such to ye hai... sari dunia tumhari le raha hai.. within Pak tum log ek dusare ki le rahe ho..
Latest http://www.geo.tv/4-19-2009/40171.htm :?:

 

[abdulhaseeb23]

sach janne ke liye jadojahad karni parti hai sirf yeh video dehka ker tum sachai ko nahi pohnch sakte agar video dikhane se sach sabit hota hai tu aesi 50000 se bhi ziada videos tumhein youtube per mil jaen gi jis mein india mein kia zulm hota hai lower class aur non hindu class ke sath woh sab hai phir tum bhi yahi kaho gai keh yeh sach nahi hai...

sacch ka samna ek din sab ko kerna paree ga tab mein tum se pocha gaa aur aik aur baad yad rakho ankh band ker ke tum sach ko juthla nahi sakte,, dekhlo america ki postion tumhare samane hai yeh bhi ek sach hai (USSR) ki misal tumhare samne hai yeh bhi sach hai aur india ki misal bhi kareeb hi tumhare samne ayii gi aur woh bhi sach hogi

inshallah

 

[aBis]

@aBid

i never said ONLY, but you definitely need education or social gathering, if its not entertainment than define what it is used for? not medicine or past time!!! used in clubs or parties or celebration(all form of entertainment)
India stop funding them and we will ban them

You only brought in drinking when I talked about entertainment(Bollywood , TV , concerts , stage shows). Even Pakis prefer to watch Indian TV and movies compared to Paki.
Taliban , Let are created by Pak Army and ISI and not by India. Now it it back firing on you. US aur Taliban dono tumhari lerahe hai :mrgreen:

aahh like i said before your thick skull would not understand the difference, nevermind don't worry about us we are thoroughly entertained watching you clowns.

now for 1971 and Kargill haha 1971 our politician made our army stand downand as your RAW works like a snake it had poisoned east pakistan people minds. There was never an army collision between west pakistan army and indian army.

before i come to kargil I would mention kashmir, even our army is not fighting their and mere few thousand Jihadis are fighting against your army, Indian army official upto date 700 has committed suicide in kashmir due to nervous breakdown. Indian army can't go and piss in the jungle near their camp in fear a jihadist will coem and kill them.




To Pakistani Defeatists: Read This About Kargil



Victories are there for the Pakistanis to own. All we have to do is have little pride in ourselves first, and victories will standout like the rising sun.



By ADNAN GILL

Tuesday, 15 July 2008.

WWW.AHMEDQURAISHI.COM



WASHINGTON, D.C.Starting from the days of the Sir Creek conflict and all the way to the Kargil dispute; you will find Indians remembering every armed conflict as a glorious victory for their troops. Neutral observers could dispute all they want, but to Indians credit, they always remember their defeats as victories. Sadly, in a stark contrast, the self-defeating Pakistanis generously concede their victories to be defeats.

In their Official 1965 war history, Indian historians never acknowledged their humiliating defeat at the Sir Creek. In a slight of hand, Indians provided the exact numbers of Pakistani casualties, but marked most of their casualties as missing; not dead or POW (p. 25).



However, the Pakistanis put the Indian losses at around 250 dead. If one is to assume even 1/5 of Pakistani numbers to be correct, Indians must have suffered at least twice as many casualties. Although the Indians miserably lost on every front at Sir Creek, including Chhad Bet, Sera Bat and Biar Bet; yet youd be hard pressed to find any Indian who would honorably admit their defeats.

India first violated Pakistans sovereignty when they invaded and annexed the state of Junagarh and Hyderabad, and then Kashmir. Later, India set the precedence of violating the Line of Control (LoC). Between 1996 and 1999 alone, the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) recorded around 3,500 Indian violations of LoC. Since signing the Shimla Agreement, India invaded and still illegally occupies three Pakistani sectors, namely Siachin, Qamar and Turbat La.

In 1998, India tested its nuclear weapons. Pakistan answered in kind. By doing so, Indians lost their 1/6 numerical superiority over Pakistan. This gave Pakistanis confidence to calculate that India will no longer go to a full fledge war with Pakistan. Arguably, Pakistanis were fairly accurate with their calculation; the Kargil conflict and the 2002 border standoff vindicated their calculations.

Following the Indian lead on LoC incursions, Pakistan decided to return the favor. They set in motion an ingenious tactical plan to occupy enough peaks, on the Indian side of the LoC, overlooking a stretch of the Leh-Srinagar Highway (NH 1A). The idea was to secure and hold vantage points to direct Pakistani artillery fire to intercept and disrupt Indian logistical supply lines for Indian troops illegally occupying the Siachin Glacier. Suspension of supplies for few weeks could force the Indians to vacate Siachin.

It was a brilliant military/tactical plan, but it was a lousy strategic plan. It was missing support from the political leadership and Foreign Office. Pakistani politicians alleged that the military left them out of loop until the last hour, which handicapped their performance. The supporters retorted it was necessary to maintain absolute secrecy. The critics explained that the Pakistani military did not trust the politicians enough to entrust them with such a level of secrecy. The ferocity of Indian reaction, punctuated by the Indian Air Force (IAF) close support missions, must have caught the architects off guard.



Perhaps that is why the component of air cover was also missing from the otherwise well-conceived plan. Critics also credit the Indian authorities for managing the dissemination of information with near perfection. Indian PR management was credited for shoring up domestic and international support, declaring a supposed Indian victory and, most importantly, demonizing Pakistan.

To the eternal shame of the Indian intelligence, the Pakistani advance went totally undetected till some shepherds tipped off the Indians. Pamela Constable (The Washington Post) reported, initially the Indians claimed there were only dozen or two intruders. By the end of the conflict, Indians were claiming there were at least 5,000 Pakistani rebels commanding the heights. After the conflict, the Indians revised the numbers to 20,000 Indian troops (in the theater) vs. 1,500 so-called infiltrators. However, in 2002, Brig. Shaukat Qadir (Pakistani) claimed the total number of rebels never exceeded 1,000; which puts the ratio of combatants to 20:1 in Indias favor.

The nature of the insurmountable odds the Indians faced at Kargil could be judged from the following stats compiled by Global Security:



Indian artillery fired over 250,000 shells, bombs and rockets. Air Force carried out nearly 5,000 sorties of all types. The aircraft [were] required to fly at about 20,000 feet. At such dizzying heights, where high winds unpredictably shift velocity every few seconds, fire-control algorithms simply do not work; neither do the other precision weapons. So, one can safely postulate that the accuracy rate of Indian artillery shells and air-dropped weapons could not have been over 3-5 percent. Ms. Constable also reported on the futility of IAF missions, Indian warplanes periodically strafe the ridges, but officials said most are so steep and narrow that air attacks have only a limited effect.

A few reporters captured the frustrating predicaments of the Indian troops. On May 18, The Times of India reported, Painting a grim picture, the sources said the Pakistani intruders had come six km inside the LoC in Mushkoh Valley and the Drass sub-sector, two km in Kaksar and up to seven km in the Batalik sub-sector. The Pakistanis [were] holding strategic peaks which gave them a dominating view of the areas around.

Week before the conflict ended, when the Indian media was splashing images of brave commandos planting Indian flags on peak after peak; all the Indians were able to reoccupy was one lousy ridge in the Batalik sector. Pamela Constable reported, Singh and other military officials here admit their progress has been excruciatingly slow Singh acknowledged, only one of four occupied ridges has been cleared of the enemy after weeks of fighting and shelling. Then she went over the embarrassment Indians were feeling, India is determined to [make up] for the embarrassment of allowing them to sneak in undetected and keep one of the worlds largest military establishments at bay for weeks.

Contrary to what the Indian propaganda machine was showing to the world, on emergency basis, their government was silently importing 3,500 caskets for their fallen men. Indians were over their heads and nowhere even close to dislodging more than a handful so-called intruders. Ms. Constable caught their farces, The rebels penetrated nearly four miles inside Indian-held territory there and still control several ridges beyond [Drass]. She further reported, Indian military officials said more Pakistani troops are still lodged in ridges. They said their positions are so high and fortified that two or three fighters can fend off literally hundreds of Indian troops. The Hindustan Times quoted Indian military commanders voicing their frustrations, Every time they hear our aircraft approach they retreat into the caves. No amount of shelling or rockets can prove effective in such a situation.

Even Indian journalists saw through their propaganda. Arthur Max (Associated Press) asked, How is it possible that casualties on the Pakistani side were higher [when Pakistanis] had all the advantage of higher ground? He appropriately reasoned, Indians should have suffered higher casualties than the Pakistanis.

Apparently, Pakistanis were also buying the scripted Indian propaganda. Nawaz Sharifs July 4 panicky dash to Washington dumbfounded many Pakistanis.



Clearly, Nawaz Sharif was incognizant of the immense advantage the Pakistanis enjoyed. Apparently, Indian bluff of expanding the conflict unnerved Nawaz Sharif. When the time came to show spine, he begged Washington to save him.



He sold Pakistans advantage and honor for President Clintons word that he will take personal interest in the Kashmir dispute. A true statesman would have immediately walked out on Clinton after telling him: Pakistani blood is not so cheap it deserves at least status quo in Kargil and Drass.



On July 11, then Pakistani Foreign Minister Sartaj Aziz announced the withdrawal of rebels from mountains. Just like that. The ultimate sacrifices of many warriors, like Capt. Karnal Sher Khan and Hav. Lalak Jan, were wasted. He sold their blood cheaper than his nerves.



However the reality proved, despite giving their best, except for reoccupying a handful of peaks in the immediate surroundings of Kargil and Drass, the Indians miserably failed to evict the rebels.



Victories are there for the Pakistanis to own. All we have to do is have little pride in ourselves first, and victories will standout like the rising sun.



Mr. Adnan Gill is a Pakistani journalist living in the United States. This article first appeared in the Pakistani daily The Post.

 

[paris2012]

@abdulhaseeb23

sach janne ke liye jadojahad karni parti hai sirf yeh video dehka ker tum sachai ko nahi pohnch sakte agar video dikhane se sach sabit hota hai tu aesi 50000 se bhi ziada videos tumhein youtube per mil jaen gi jis mein india mein kia zulm hota hai lower class aur non hindu class ke sath woh sab hai phir tum bhi yahi kaho gai keh yeh sach nahi hai...

ye video nahi... news hai tumhare pak channel ka...agar tum apne media pe beleive karte ho to
Taliban : http://www.geo.tv/4-19-2009/40177.htm
US : http://www.geo.tv/4-19-2009/40171.htm

sacch ka samna ek din sab ko kerna paree ga tab mein tum se pocha gaa aur aik aur baad yad rakho ankh band ker ke tum sach ko juthla nahi sakte,, dekhlo america ki postion tumhare samane hai yeh bhi ek sach hai (USSR) ki misal tumhare samne hai yeh bhi sach hai aur india ki misal bhi kareeb hi tumhare samne ayii gi aur woh bhi sach hogi

USSR was defeated because US and taliban worked together. And now they are against PAK ...

Try to lie in present and not in past or future

 

[aBis]

Read and weep,

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtpCtskR5BE[/video]

This is not a complete video, it was shown that the poor soldier had a little mishap in his pants during this.

For taliban issue it has been discussed quite a number of times but "app ko parhana aur ghadhey ko sikhana aik hi baat hay"

 

[abdulhaseeb23]

han hum apne media ko belive kerte hain lekin jab tak woh sach hoo lekin tum yeh nahi kerte tum sirf aus new ko sunte ho jis mein india ki bollwood ki tareff ho tum woh news nahi sunte jis mein K.Prohiheet ke samjhota express bomb blast ke kartoot hoo.. tum woh nahi dehkte jo narinder modi ke hath per lagee khoon ke baree mein hoo

tumhein khoon kharaba sirf pak mein nazar aata hai q ke tum sirf wohi dehkete ho joo pakistan mein hota hai india mein kiya hota hai woh tumhein nazar nahi atta aur na hi kabhi ayee ga q ke tum sach dehkna aur sun na nahi chahte

 

[paris2012]

Postby abdulhaseeb23 on Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:55 pm

han hum apne media ko belive kerte hain lekin jab tak woh sach hoo lekin tum yeh nahi kerte tum sirf aus new ko sunte ho jis mein india ki bollwood ki tareff ho tum woh news nahi sunte jis mein K.Prohiheet ke samjhota express bomb blast ke kartoot hoo.. tum woh nahi dehkte jo narinder modi ke hath per lagee khoon ke baree mein hoo

What does it mean .. Geo lies sometimes..so u decide if your media is telling truth or lie..
Jaha tak samjhota aur Gujrat ka sawal hai.. wo India ka internal masla hai.. aur many people have been arrested and case is in front of court.
Hamari Govt Inteha pasando ke sath peace deal nahi karti.. jaisa PAk ne Taliban se kia..

tumhein khoon kharaba sirf pak mein nazar aata hai q ke tum sirf wohi dehkete ho joo pakistan mein hota hai india mein kiya hota hai woh tumhein nazar nahi atta aur na hi kabhi ayee ga q ke tum sach dehkna aur sun na nahi chahte

Bilkul galat baat hai ye... yaha press free hai.. sab kuch dikhta bhi hai.. tumhare Govt ne to Media aur journlist ko bhi ban kar diya tha .. sach bolne pe

 

[paris2012]

@aBid

This is not a complete video, it was shown that the poor soldier had a little mishap in his pants during this.

For taliban issue it has been discussed quite a number of times but "app ko parhana aur ghadhey ko sikhana aik hi baat hay"

Agar Aisa hua bhi to kya badi baat hai...it is still the same army who defeated your army 4 times..

ghadhey ko sikhane ki baat ap jaisa Gadha hi soch sakta hai... :mrgreen:

 

[abdulhaseeb23]

tuhare internal masla hai tu tum q pakistan ke forum per suggestion de rahe hoo,,, yeh bhi pakistan ka internal masla hai bech mein kutte ki tarah maat buhkoo,,, aur jis army ka tum keh rahe hoo ke panch baar haraya hai woh bhi tumahri media ka jhoot hai,,, jo fouj humari sirf rangers ke samne march nahi kersakti woh kia karee gi ais ko socho,, peace deal ke bare mein jahan tak baat rahi peace deal ki tu tum dubara news suno aur dehkoo woh sari khabrein,, yahi tu ek masla hai mein jo tumhein kab se bata raha hoon ke indian media ke ellwah kuch aur bhi dehka karoo pakistan govt. ne peace deal taliban sai nahi balke Moulana Sofi Muhammad se ki jis ka taliban se koi taluq nahi hai aur yeh pakistan ka ander ka mamla hai tum bharti kutoon ko ais per bhokne ki kia zarorat hai,, jab tum kisi bat ko ander ka mamla keh ker jhotla dete ho tu dosre ke mamle mein bola bhi maat karo,,, abb jab haqiqat aii tu yeh tumhara ander ka mamla ho gia haan,, phir pakistan ke male per q apni hanq rahe hoo kutte ki tarah

 

[paris2012]

y abdulhaseeb23 on Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:02 pm
tuhare internal masla hai tu tum q pakistan ke forum per suggestion de rahe hoo,,, yeh bhi pakistan ka internal masla hai bech mein kutte ki tarah maat buhkoo,,, aur jis army ka tum keh rahe hoo ke panch baar haraya hai woh bhi tumahri media ka jhoot hai,,, jo fouj humari sirf rangers ke samne march nahi kersakti woh kia karee gi ais ko socho,, peace deal ke bare mein jahan tak baat rahi peace deal ki tu tum dubara news suno aur dehkoo woh sari khabrein,, yahi tu ek masla hai mein jo tumhein kab se bata raha hoon ke indian media ke ellwah kuch aur bhi dehka karoo pakistan govt. ne peace deal taliban sai nahi balke Moulana Sofi Muhammad se ki jis ka taliban se koi taluq nahi hai aur yeh pakistan ka ander ka mamla hai tum bharti kutoon ko ais per bhokne ki kia zarorat hai,, jab tum kisi bat ko ander ka mamla keh ker jhotla dete ho tu dosre ke mamle mein bola bhi maat karo,,, abb jab haqiqat aii tu yeh tumhara ander ka mamla ho gia haan,, phir pakistan ke male per q apni hanq rahe hoo kutte ki tarah

1) Tum ne jis language ka use kia hai. usase tumne apani aukat dikha di..
2) Is thead me India ka naam aya so maine answer dena thik samajha.. otherwise Mod can ban me.
3) Maine jo link diya wo tumhari Geo news agency hai...
4) Sach baat to hamesha kadawi hoti hai.. shayad isiliye tum cheap language pe aye
5) Kya Sofi Muhammad aur Talibani Betulla mehsud ke bich koi link nahi hai ...