Shahbaz Baig
MPA (400+ posts)
Congratulation you can now read Urdu because 5 years ago you couldn't.
Here is your own comment.
https://www.siasat.pk/forums/thread...stan-strategically.202552/page-2#post-1814367
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Why The West Craves Materialism and Why The East Sticks To Religion - by Imran Khan
- Thread starter عؔلی خان
- Start date
Here is your own comment.
https://www.siasat.pk/forums/thread...stan-strategically.202552/page-2#post-1814367
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Shhh... He's the guy that thinks the Greeks knew what we know today without having to use a microscope.
He's deluded himself to believe his opinions about science and religion are a fact even though he's completely oblivious to both science and religion.
He also loves to throw figures without even realising what it means. X was known to humanity 40000 years ago, x was known to humanity thousands of years ago. Apparently he doesn't have knowledge of history either LOL
Don't argue with him. Just let him attack religions and feel okay with his opinions. He just needs validation that he's not alone in his twisted opinions about the world.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Well so far I have answered to every question you have and you have never answered a single question.
I am still awaiting your response on a translation of the Quranic verse that says universe is expanding from before this theory was made public in the 1930s.
The fact that you do not verify your own sources before posting it here point to the fact that you are either dishonest, or you lack knowledge about your own religion. And the fact that I was able to pick up on your errors show that I am atleast more knowledge on Islam than you are. If you disagree than demonstrate it.
I am still awaiting your response on a translation of the Quranic verse that says universe is expanding from before this theory was made public in the 1930s.
The fact that you do not verify your own sources before posting it here point to the fact that you are either dishonest, or you lack knowledge about your own religion. And the fact that I was able to pick up on your errors show that I am atleast more knowledge on Islam than you are. If you disagree than demonstrate it.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Pfff... You have no interest in truth or anything of the sort. You just hate religion.
It's very hard to reach an objective conclusion when you hate the guts of something. It's a physical impossibility.
So you've an extreme bias against religion and have formed these ignorant opinions and beliefs that a mere mortal like me can't change. I have seen the bias you've and dishonesty you show.
Humans can defend a lot of things and have this thing called brain which can justify anything.
There are two varieties of religious people (you're religious too, of the atheism religion even if you deny it) those who are your average joes like me whose hearts are open to thinking. Then there are the other types who don't really care about the truth of their religion, they accept it as their core and even in the face of undeniable proof, they refuse it because it is against their core. You're the second type.
The Holy Quran mentions it in very clear words and there are verses that say they won't believe until they see the torment that is ahead of them. Pharoah ridiculed and mocked Musa (A.S) until death approached him then he said he believes but it was too late.
There is a message in it and that is these disbelievers know in their heart that God exists but don't believe for the love of this world. If Pharaoh truly believed that there was no God, he would've just accepted that he's drowning and it's a natural thing but nope, he knew that Prophet Musa (as) was right and God exists so he quickly uttered the Shahadah to save himself from the pain.
So yeah don't fool yourself or me. You just want to attack religion. I have seen you quote antiislamic books word by word when you were stumped, that shows how much love you have for truth.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Forget all that and show me translation from before 1930s that says universe is expanding? Or admit it that you were lying. This is why its a waste of time arguing with you, you add nothing to anyones knowledge other than sharing fraudulent translations and when i ask you for an answer you run away and keep babbling and preaching from holy books.
Shahbaz Baig
MPA (400+ posts)
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I read it. Its a poorly written article in which he talks about his personal opinion about Islam. This way of thinking is very typical of Pakistanis. We have this image of perfect Islamic system in our mind that some day it will become true, and the only problem is that people are not implementing the "Real Islam". This is an illusion just like the perfect communist system. Many countries have been destroyed by socialism on the path to this idealistic dream of Communism. Islam is the fastest growing religion true but thats not because people are converting to Islam but because of the high birth rate of Muslims. The net conversion rate into Islam is near zero according to surveys, meaning at-least as many people leave Islam as those who convert into it.
I think the culprit is the Pakistani education system. We are taught how to read Quran but not how to understand it. We are taught about the Hadith and Tafsir but not made aware of how important those books actually are to Islam throughout its history. You cant even find the actual version of Sahih Bukhari and all its volumes without putting in some effort into it. The bookstores just sell the summarized version which only shows hand picked hadiths and ignores most of them.
This person mentioned that he is follower of the following scholars:
Dr Zakir Naik
Dr Tahir ul Qadri
Imran N Hossein
Dr Israr Ahmed
I have done a fair bit of research into Islamic scriptures, I can say with 100% that Indian Muslim Scholars of the subcontinent are the least trustworthy and the most compromised. Pick any book of translation or tafsirs made by Indian scholars and compared it to the translations and tafsirs made by original Arab scholars from time of Muhammad.
You will see a difference of day and night. They are preaching a completely different religion, they have made up completely different narrative of Quran and even changed the meanings of Arabic words in Quran. Dont take my word for it, do your own research. Look up Zakir Naik when he talks about controversial verses like the shape of the Earth, expanding universe, Sun setting in a muddy spring, the whale that carries the earth on its back (mentioned in Quran), Embryology in Quran. Check what the Indian scholars say about these things and then just search Tafsirs from orignal Arab scholars like Tabari and Ibn Kathir, your mind will be blown. These Indians blatantly lie so openly and so shamelessly.
You will see that as soon as a scientific discovery is made they will promptly change the meaning of words in Quran. After expansion of universe was made public in 1930s... some dishonest scholars changed the translation of a verse in the quran to mean that the world is expanding (you will not find this in translations that were made before 1930s).
Quran also says that Sun revolved around the Earth, you can find a video of Zakir Naik who says that this verse means that Sun is revolving around blackhole in middle of Galaxy. Again compare what he is saying to original Tafsirs and you will see that he is lying. Many scientists in baghdad were given death threats for blasphemy after 1000 AD when they discovered that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the other way around, this is documented by official sources of that time.
I think the culprit is the Pakistani education system. We are taught how to read Quran but not how to understand it. We are taught about the Hadith and Tafsir but not made aware of how important those books actually are to Islam throughout its history. You cant even find the actual version of Sahih Bukhari and all its volumes without putting in some effort into it. The bookstores just sell the summarized version which only shows hand picked hadiths and ignores most of them.
This person mentioned that he is follower of the following scholars:
Dr Zakir Naik
Dr Tahir ul Qadri
Imran N Hossein
Dr Israr Ahmed
I have done a fair bit of research into Islamic scriptures, I can say with 100% that Indian Muslim Scholars of the subcontinent are the least trustworthy and the most compromised. Pick any book of translation or tafsirs made by Indian scholars and compared it to the translations and tafsirs made by original Arab scholars from time of Muhammad.
You will see a difference of day and night. They are preaching a completely different religion, they have made up completely different narrative of Quran and even changed the meanings of Arabic words in Quran. Dont take my word for it, do your own research. Look up Zakir Naik when he talks about controversial verses like the shape of the Earth, expanding universe, Sun setting in a muddy spring, the whale that carries the earth on its back (mentioned in Quran), Embryology in Quran. Check what the Indian scholars say about these things and then just search Tafsirs from orignal Arab scholars like Tabari and Ibn Kathir, your mind will be blown. These Indians blatantly lie so openly and so shamelessly.
You will see that as soon as a scientific discovery is made they will promptly change the meaning of words in Quran. After expansion of universe was made public in 1930s... some dishonest scholars changed the translation of a verse in the quran to mean that the world is expanding (you will not find this in translations that were made before 1930s).
Quran also says that Sun revolved around the Earth, you can find a video of Zakir Naik who says that this verse means that Sun is revolving around blackhole in middle of Galaxy. Again compare what he is saying to original Tafsirs and you will see that he is lying. Many scientists in baghdad were given death threats for blasphemy after 1000 AD when they discovered that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the other way around, this is documented by official sources of that time.
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Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Like i said you're ignorant about Islam.
The exegesis of the Holy Quran will change as times change because the knowledge of people changes, there are two types of verses in Holy Quran. I have gone through this before with you.
You're also oblivious to how hadith works and why only some hadiths are selected and some aren't even though they're there.
I lost interest when you said the greeks knew about embryology without needing a microscope years ago. I showed you how the word Alaqah in arabic perfectly explains the embryo that only now we know with the help of microscope. I gave you hamza tzortzis video which goes into far more detail but you rejected it as he's a liar. I mean every atheist is a liar when they reject God and do these stupid translations of Holy Quran but we still listen to them and correct them. I don't know why hamza tzortzis is a liar and you never gave any evidence to the contrary about his claims.
So yeah like i said spare me the crap. You will find the truth when you die, that will be too late though.
PS: i don't know what you've been smoking about the whale comment and the other crap, i saw this being mentioned by themaskedarab and i laughed. Even a moron of the highest caliber wouldn't think Islam teaches that by the virtue of the fact that islam teaches monotheism and even the biggest islamophobes don't mention it. Of course you would mention it because you're a special type of moron. I guess atheists really are dumbasses and will believe anything they hear.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Lets put things into perspective...
Muslims believe that:
1) Muhammad is the last prophet and whatever his message is will be the last message so it is an unchanged teaching for all mankind for all time to come
2) Muslims believe Quran is perfect in its original form and does not need to be changed and there is no issue over interpretation as Quran itself says it is easy to interpret. These interpretations have already been made at time of Muhammad.
3) Quran will never change
4) Languages change over time. If you want to know the real meaning of the holy Quran you need to read the exegesis of Quran from Arab scholars from the time of Muhammad before 1000 AD and not Indian scholars from 19th century. Even Zakir Naik says that the most authentic sources are Tabari and Ibn Kathir. This shows that you are completely ignorant about your religion and the beliefs you have about Islamic knowledge are in the minority.
If you are claiming that exegesis change as science changes, doesn't that defeat the point of having an exegesis in the first place? The point of the exegesis is to prevent corruption in the word and keep the original meaning of the word and explain it in context with why the verse was revealed. You need to study your own religion before commenting.
Muslims believe that:
1) Muhammad is the last prophet and whatever his message is will be the last message so it is an unchanged teaching for all mankind for all time to come
2) Muslims believe Quran is perfect in its original form and does not need to be changed and there is no issue over interpretation as Quran itself says it is easy to interpret. These interpretations have already been made at time of Muhammad.
3) Quran will never change
4) Languages change over time. If you want to know the real meaning of the holy Quran you need to read the exegesis of Quran from Arab scholars from the time of Muhammad before 1000 AD and not Indian scholars from 19th century. Even Zakir Naik says that the most authentic sources are Tabari and Ibn Kathir. This shows that you are completely ignorant about your religion and the beliefs you have about Islamic knowledge are in the minority.
If you are claiming that exegesis change as science changes, doesn't that defeat the point of having an exegesis in the first place? The point of the exegesis is to prevent corruption in the word and keep the original meaning of the word and explain it in context with why the verse was revealed. You need to study your own religion before commenting.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I know how hadiths work. Its just that you are ignorant about your religion and refuse to educate yourself and I keep having to repeat the basic of Islamic scriptures and you still don't understand. Its your religion take some responsibility and educate yourself a little bit.
There are four types of hadith: Sahih, Hasan, Dhaif, Mawdu. Sahih being the most authentic and Mawdu being the least.
I was talking about Sahih Bukhari, its a collection of Sahih hadiths, there are no inauthentic hadiths in that book and this is accepted by 95% of Muslims. You are extremely ignorant about Islamic scriptures so here is little bit more knowledge for you. Sahih Bukhari is the most important source of Islam after Quran. It is considered infallible by Sunni Muslims and even Shia Islam is influenced by it. It is supposed to be present in every mosque along with the Quran.
What I said about Sahih Bukhari is that the translation of upto 7 volumes is not widely available you have to search for them. The bookstores only carry the summary which only show the hadiths that they want to show you which is less than 1/10th of the actual book. Even though the hadith of the entire books is authentic, they dont want you to see some of them. I have the rest of the book, there is a whole chapter on camel piss medication and other stuff that you will not like me posting here.
There are four types of hadith: Sahih, Hasan, Dhaif, Mawdu. Sahih being the most authentic and Mawdu being the least.
I was talking about Sahih Bukhari, its a collection of Sahih hadiths, there are no inauthentic hadiths in that book and this is accepted by 95% of Muslims. You are extremely ignorant about Islamic scriptures so here is little bit more knowledge for you. Sahih Bukhari is the most important source of Islam after Quran. It is considered infallible by Sunni Muslims and even Shia Islam is influenced by it. It is supposed to be present in every mosque along with the Quran.
What I said about Sahih Bukhari is that the translation of upto 7 volumes is not widely available you have to search for them. The bookstores only carry the summary which only show the hadiths that they want to show you which is less than 1/10th of the actual book. Even though the hadith of the entire books is authentic, they dont want you to see some of them. I have the rest of the book, there is a whole chapter on camel piss medication and other stuff that you will not like me posting here.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
As I have explained before. Hamza Tzortzis manipulated the meaning of Alaqa to support is argument. When I checked this meaning does not exist in old tafsirs and translations. The Quran says that the embryo "is Alaqa". Not "looks like Alaqa" So even if we take Hamza's wrong translation of the Quran it will say "It is a leech" and this is still wrong as a human embryo is never a leech its a human. Leeches are few cm in length you do not need microscope to see it. This is what happens when you make up words and try to fit it in, where they don't belong.
Why did he change the translation? The orignal ones talk about blood or blood clot. Which we now know from advance in embryology that there is no blood involved in the embryo.
Quran says the bones formed first and muscles later wrapped around it. We now know that bones and Muscles formed at same time.
Quran says the process starts with semen and fluids. We now know that it is only a single sperm that triggers the egg in the woman, the rest of the fluid does not play a part in the embryonic process. Quran does not even mention the most important part which is the female egg. Dude who are you trying to fool? This is just regurgitating stuff that was already said by Greeks.
Why did he change the translation? The orignal ones talk about blood or blood clot. Which we now know from advance in embryology that there is no blood involved in the embryo.
Quran says the bones formed first and muscles later wrapped around it. We now know that bones and Muscles formed at same time.
Quran says the process starts with semen and fluids. We now know that it is only a single sperm that triggers the egg in the woman, the rest of the fluid does not play a part in the embryonic process. Quran does not even mention the most important part which is the female egg. Dude who are you trying to fool? This is just regurgitating stuff that was already said by Greeks.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
A Muslim's salvation depends on following the Holy Quran and the life of Prophet Muhammad(SAWW) and his teachings. It doesn't depend on learning every hadith under the sun even if it is Sahih, this is a matter left to the people expert in Hadith science. But a Muslim's salvation depends on learning the Holy Quran. You're oblivious to how hadith works once again. When it concerns the important issues related to faith and actions (salah etc.), the hadiths are repeated again and again by different narrators and the chain goes back to the Prophet Muhammad(SAWW). Just on the issue of Wudu (ablution), there are hadiths by several narrators who narrate how wudu is performed. This shows the strength and soundness of the narration.
The hadiths you mentioned are questionable and not a part of Muslim belief. Not to mention they're lone hadiths and not repeated. They aren't even part of the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(SAWW) and Holy Quran teachings and any hadith that goes against the Holy Quran and the Sunnah are rejected owing to the fact that the hadiths aren't preserved the same way like Holy Quran was and there were people intentionally making shit up to misguide people. You yourself said 95%.
If you have an atom of honesty in your bones, you would admit this and stop bringing hadiths to attack Islam that the majority of Muslims don't even know about.
As for why they're not taught in mosques, it's because the Holy Quran is THE BOOK that you need to understand and learn by heart. Once again, your fucking salvation isn't on learning the Sahih Muslim by heart but by learning the Holy Quran by heart. The Holy Quran is preserved by Allah. And for Sunnah, all the issues are extremely clear and taught to a 5 year old kid. Reading up every hadith is a science and you need to go to Mudrassahs and do years of education like a university degree to learn Hadiths and the science of hadith.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Okay I just watched that video. The reason why critics do not talk about Islam much is because most of them are Ex-Christians like Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins etc... Most atheist did not study Quran... TMA is a friend of mine and he is an Arab Iraqi Ex-Muslim, he has access to major tafsirs in their original form some which have not even been translated yet this is how he finds this stuff.
So with regards to the whale, the story is mentioned in the Quran and most of the major Tafsirs expand on it and give more details about how Allah placed the flat earth on its back and how the Earthquakes on Earth happen as the whale moves. They also mention the name of this whale.
But if you have answer to specific arguments by TMA then I will be happy to discuss it. By just saying that you are dumb or smoking or whatever is not an argument.
So with regards to the whale, the story is mentioned in the Quran and most of the major Tafsirs expand on it and give more details about how Allah placed the flat earth on its back and how the Earthquakes on Earth happen as the whale moves. They also mention the name of this whale.
But if you have answer to specific arguments by TMA then I will be happy to discuss it. By just saying that you are dumb or smoking or whatever is not an argument.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Well then my friend this shows that you are a special breed of Muslim and your views are in the minority. Even Islamic Apologetics like Zakir Naik will disagree with you. The Sahih Bukhari book as a whole is considered to be Infallible meaning you cannot question even single Hadith in it, these verifications have already been made by scholars and its not up to your personal interpretation to cherry pick what you like and ignore what you dont like. Even Zakir Naik says you cannot get complete understanding of Islam without Hadith. I have not even mentioned Arab Scholars.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The exegesis will change. That doesn't mean the Holy Quran is changed. There are two types of verses in Holy Quran - please get it in your fucking head (i am sorry i try to be as polite as possible but you act so damn thick sometimes and then act like you know Islam).
Muhkamat and Mutashabihat.
<<Allah is the One Who has sent down to the Prophet the Book that contains muhkamat ayat, which are the foundation of the Book, and other ayat which are mutashabihat. Those who have perversity in their hearts, they follow the mutashabihat ayat seeking discord and searching for unbefitting meanings based on their delusions. No one knows their true meanings except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion. The latter say, “We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord and none will understand the message except men of comprehension>>.
سورة آل عمران – سورة 3 – آية 7
We Muslims believe that the verses about simile - the true meaning is only known to Allah and we don't know their correct meaning but believe in them. There are words in Holy Quran - the meaning of which nobody knows but Allah (SWT) like Noon, Qaf, Swat at the start of Holy Quran. They're a part of the numerical miracles of Holy Quran.
The language in Holy Quran is superior to any exegesis and translation and this is why Muslims learn Holy Quran by heart in Arabic even if we don't know the meaning and don't allow the mistake of even a "zair, zabar" - grammar or pronunciation. The exegesis when it concerns the mutashabihat verses will change because only Allah knows the true meaning.
This is very evident about the verses about black holes. The Arabs at the time didn't know about black holes and there are even few words and verses which aren't even translated or exegesis provided for them except said Allah knows best. Today, we know some of them point to black holes.
This is pretty basic Islam. I don't know how you claim to be an expert on Islam and not know this simple fact.
We Muslims believe that only Allah knows the true interpretation and meanings of Holy Quran and even the people who did the exegesis clearly say that ONLY ALLAH KNOWS BEST!. No person doing the exegesis will ever claim his is the right.
Explaining this shit to you is when i lose my patience. Why don't you go and fucking ask an Imam in a mosque about this. But nay, this shows your intentions. Even the Holy Quran says that people in whose heart is a disease will find fault in these verses.
We can only try to understand them based on our limited knowledge but ONLY ALLAH KNOWS their true meaning. I think it's extremely dishonest of you to attack some person who did an exegesis to the best of his knowledge and even clearly mentions that he's not the end say in all of this. No Muslim will ever claim this.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I would appreciate if you stop throwing fuckin red herrings at once. I don't have the stamina to argue with you on a million topics.
Stop misunderstanding my posts.
You can't be a Muslim without accepting Hadiths and Holy Quran. End of discussion.
This doesn't mean that you have to learn hadiths which are questionable by majority Muslim scholars, you can safely leave them to the experts of hadith and accept their ruling on it. The fact that this whale comment is unknown to majority Muslims should tell you how important it is.
Only the Holy Quran is infallible, even Bukhari and Muslims never claimed they got everything right but their efforts at gathering the most sahih of sahih hadiths makes their books extremely respected. The hadiths on the most important tenents of Islam are repeated by several hadiths and have strong narrators, that is enough to learn. There are so many hadiths that only a hadith expert can comment on its authenticity and it's not up to a laymen like me or an ignorant like you to make part of Islam.
That should be the end of this silly discussion.
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/114...-the-earth-being-placed-on-the-back-of-a-bull
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
TMA is an ignorant islamophobe. I am sorry i don't take a person very serious who hides behind a youtube animation and doesn't show his face. He could be an ISIS terrorist for all i know and i hate the ISIS.
If he is your source of knowledge then stop wasting my time. That's all i am going to say about this.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I am not aware of this and you keep claiming but i haven't seen any source yet. It is also not Hamza's translation, it is a pretty old translation that goes back to 19 or 20th century.
As for the muscles and bones comment, we now know that if you see microscopically it is exactly as Holy Quran mentions it. How did Islam know this 1400 years ago? Are you going to go back on your comment and say oh no this is also a wrong translation about bones and muscles.
Semen does play a major part, what the fuck? Do you have any idea what liquefication is and what makes healthy sperm?
It's ignorance like this that i lose interest. You're clearly not a person who has any sort of scientific background and your ignorance shines.
I am not going to even bother pasting the Holy Quran's translation (i don't remember it) but your own points that you're trying to attack shows your ignorance about science more than anything.
I have shown you countless times how Holy Quran differs from Gellanic science. They thought MENSTRUATION and MALE DISCHARGE combined ffs.
Go and google azoospermia and oligospermia.
Nuff said
