I am glad that you qualified your statement by the use of "almost every pakistan" - however I would say that "some of the pakistanis" would have been more appropriate....
Is It a Lie? or Truth
- Thread starter Unicorn
- Start date
If we accept your assertion then I have to say that Congress beats most paramilitaries - seems that its a well oiled killing machine to have killed over 4000 people in 4 days....I never knew that the party responsible for creation of india was capable of this. Anyway.....I commend your efforts to put things a good light given the gruesome nature of what happened in 1984.
Here is an excerpt from an article - talking about Khushwant Singh's testimony....
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[TD="width: 465"]But he refused to call the 1984 riots 'Hindu-Sikh riots', saying it was a one-sided riot. There was no retaliation from Sikhs, even in Punjab, where they form a majority, he explained.
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source: http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/09sikh.htm
Mr. Khushwant Singh called it a Pogrom....
And, if congress is guilty of Pogrom against Sikhs which resulted in deaths of so many then that puts India and the government in very bad light....
and seriously jeopardizes their moral authority at least.
Was there any formal apology from the Congress party and admittance of culpability? any, formal repentance?
Here is an excerpt from an article - talking about Khushwant Singh's testimony....
[TABLE="width: 600"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 465"]But he refused to call the 1984 riots 'Hindu-Sikh riots', saying it was a one-sided riot. There was no retaliation from Sikhs, even in Punjab, where they form a majority, he explained.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
source: http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/09sikh.htm
Mr. Khushwant Singh called it a Pogrom....
And, if congress is guilty of Pogrom against Sikhs which resulted in deaths of so many then that puts India and the government in very bad light....
and seriously jeopardizes their moral authority at least.
Was there any formal apology from the Congress party and admittance of culpability? any, formal repentance?
hawaskapujari
Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
look i am not defending india or hindus or anyone here. i am an indian muslim myself and have seen the heavy communal build up starting in the 80's and i think ending with 2002 godhra, after which things are hopefuly and finally settling down.
but when i analyze the riots of 1984, the one thing which I will say is that there was never any historical animosity between hindu and sikh community. it was a strange set of circumstances which led to 84 riots and in reality it was the congress party and its leaders in delhi who orchestrated the riots.otherwise people will be very hard strained to make any case for a strong historical animosity between the two communities.even today there are so many intermarriages, the 2 communities celebrate diwali, holi, nanak jayanti etc. together. in fact i am hoping for the day to come in india's future when hindu muslim relations can also be brought up to the same level.believe me if tomorrow india ad pakistan have a war or something like that (astaghfirullah, hopefully not) and u attack the golden temple,every hindu citizen will be as outraged as insted if you attack the akshardham temple.
but when i analyze the riots of 1984, the one thing which I will say is that there was never any historical animosity between hindu and sikh community. it was a strange set of circumstances which led to 84 riots and in reality it was the congress party and its leaders in delhi who orchestrated the riots.otherwise people will be very hard strained to make any case for a strong historical animosity between the two communities.even today there are so many intermarriages, the 2 communities celebrate diwali, holi, nanak jayanti etc. together. in fact i am hoping for the day to come in india's future when hindu muslim relations can also be brought up to the same level.believe me if tomorrow india ad pakistan have a war or something like that (astaghfirullah, hopefully not) and u attack the golden temple,every hindu citizen will be as outraged as insted if you attack the akshardham temple.
Well, I never said that you were defending hindus or india - but its understandable that you would try to find positives out of a gruesome issue to try to put your homeland in a good light. Its all good :-)
What you say may be true - I have never been to India so I am in no position to comment but even without historical animosity the riots of 1984 did seem to be hindus attacking the sikhs - no matter who incited these riots its very hard for me to accept that it was all orchestrated and common man on the street wasn't involved even with lack of any visible animosity.
Well, I am sure that there must be a lot of studies and analysis done on why the hindus turned on Sikhs like they did after Indira Gandhi's assassination.
What you say may be true - I have never been to India so I am in no position to comment but even without historical animosity the riots of 1984 did seem to be hindus attacking the sikhs - no matter who incited these riots its very hard for me to accept that it was all orchestrated and common man on the street wasn't involved even with lack of any visible animosity.
Well, I am sure that there must be a lot of studies and analysis done on why the hindus turned on Sikhs like they did after Indira Gandhi's assassination.
Regarding the 1000 year old rule, even if (Late)Indira Gandhi had indeed say so then she just uttered one of the greatest myths or nonsense from history of the Subcontinent....Muslims did rule over present day India BUT it was not an Islamic empire,rather a personal,feudal,monarchic era. They didn't care about spreading Islam or any of its tenets. And Ghaznavis,Mughals and everyone else received favours,help and benefits by local Hindu kings as well. Muslim emperors couldn't rule without any local correspondence.
Ranjit Singh had a Muslim person as an important minister of his. Even Aurangzeb,who is labelled as an extremist by many Hindus today,actually had a Rajput prince or warrior as his sidekick......why fights between the emperors are labelled as fights between religions or "civilizations".
Ranjit Singh had a Muslim person as an important minister of his. Even Aurangzeb,who is labelled as an extremist by many Hindus today,actually had a Rajput prince or warrior as his sidekick......why fights between the emperors are labelled as fights between religions or "civilizations".
Unicorn
Banned
.
1984 Massacre was not only about assassination of Indra Gandhi and retaliation from Hindus it has a long history with several events that lead to it. Here is a Canadian documentary that looks at the events prior to her assassination.
hawaskapujari
Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
look here there is no question of good or poor light. indian society has huge problems. i just think the lack of knowledge of most pakistani commentators (and indian middle class commentators) shows when they criticize india for all the wrong reasons. india is an incredibly classist and racist society, with huge discrimination on caste basis. any survey of crime statistics in india will easily reveal that. and of course with the advent of capitalism there is the huge huge problem of neglecting the well being of millions and millions of poor people who are ruthlessly exploited to support the life style of a middle class. the mid boggling expolitation of the tribals in orissa and chatisgarh with the purpose of stealing their land for mineral expolitation etc are much bigger issues than a few muslims or sikhs being massacred (as bad as those riots and massacres are).
so my purpose was not to deny the riots or potray them in a good light. i think these issues will be eventually dealt with in some reasonable fashion. but that there are much much bigger issues which are much less famous but are much more repressive. also lets not forget the massive repression of women in indian society (recent survey ranked india as the 4th worst in womens rights issues).
and there is nothing good coming of those riots. if i had the ability I would myself hang modi, advani, tytler and sajjan kumar. but one shouldnt loose sight of the big picture ever. lastly almost every successful riot in modern india is orchestrated by the politicians. for e.g. in west bengal after the advent of the communits party in 1977 (who are staunch atheist party) there have never been any big riots, in 1984, even after Babri masjid fell, after Godhra etc etc. Why? the reason is because of the communist parties staunch secular ideology. i can give you many such emperical examples to illustrate my point. read the wikipedia entry for anti-sikh riots and see how the congress party literally used electoral rolls to find sikhs. in fact it was the right wing hindu parties like Jan sangh and RSS which opposed the congress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots
so my purpose was not to deny the riots or potray them in a good light. i think these issues will be eventually dealt with in some reasonable fashion. but that there are much much bigger issues which are much less famous but are much more repressive. also lets not forget the massive repression of women in indian society (recent survey ranked india as the 4th worst in womens rights issues).
and there is nothing good coming of those riots. if i had the ability I would myself hang modi, advani, tytler and sajjan kumar. but one shouldnt loose sight of the big picture ever. lastly almost every successful riot in modern india is orchestrated by the politicians. for e.g. in west bengal after the advent of the communits party in 1977 (who are staunch atheist party) there have never been any big riots, in 1984, even after Babri masjid fell, after Godhra etc etc. Why? the reason is because of the communist parties staunch secular ideology. i can give you many such emperical examples to illustrate my point. read the wikipedia entry for anti-sikh riots and see how the congress party literally used electoral rolls to find sikhs. in fact it was the right wing hindu parties like Jan sangh and RSS which opposed the congress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots
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hawaskapujari
Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
i am not denying that. in fact some people have traced the origin to the Green Revolution in punjab, and thats the argument that I buy the most. its just that for a pakistani audience, its hard to explain in so much detail.
only_truths
Minister (2k+ posts)
BTW, Dr. P.C.Alexander was Indira Gandhi's secretary after she won the elections in 1980. I believe he was in civil service during 1971 hence he would not have any idea of what she said in 1971. (source:http://visionbooksindia.com/details.asp?isbn=8170944422)
Well , I don't know much regarding indra Ghandi Ma'am , its the first time I am GOING IN Indain Politics :P
Can u know about her author friends , colleagues ? Personal Assistants ? Who wrote books about her later ?
Thanks for the link - Its long and I will try to watch it sometime.
You basically are countering what @hawaskapujari was saying. Without knowing all the details I still didn't buy hawaskapujari's contention that Congress was mainly responsible for the Sikh deaths - Just as I find it hard to believe that only Lalit Modi was responsible for the riots in gujrat. Anyway - I digress..... I found it really hard to believe. I knew that the assault on the golden temple and what was brewing in East Punjab had a lot to do with it. These things just not happen overnight in a vaccum.
Listen - I never claim to know much about internal dynamics in India, relationships between followers of different religions, how effective is secularism - how polictics work. I believe that we in Pakistan have enough problems and issues that I dont have time to educate myself on internal Indian issues. I know that this contrary to some pakistanis and some indians who find it very interesting to delve into each others internal issues without knowing the context or the complexities involved. Thats why I have asked before as to why I see Indians here commenting on internal Pakistani affairs when they dont impact India :-) I have had discussion with some indian friends on whats happening in pakistan and they think that they know exactly what will happen in Pakistan given that they read the news and I can see that they can't comprehend since most of the time they are missing the context and I don't expect to know all the detailed history and events that lead to certain situations.
You basically are countering what @hawaskapujari was saying. Without knowing all the details I still didn't buy hawaskapujari's contention that Congress was mainly responsible for the Sikh deaths - Just as I find it hard to believe that only Lalit Modi was responsible for the riots in gujrat. Anyway - I digress..... I found it really hard to believe. I knew that the assault on the golden temple and what was brewing in East Punjab had a lot to do with it. These things just not happen overnight in a vaccum.
Listen - I never claim to know much about internal dynamics in India, relationships between followers of different religions, how effective is secularism - how polictics work. I believe that we in Pakistan have enough problems and issues that I dont have time to educate myself on internal Indian issues. I know that this contrary to some pakistanis and some indians who find it very interesting to delve into each others internal issues without knowing the context or the complexities involved. Thats why I have asked before as to why I see Indians here commenting on internal Pakistani affairs when they dont impact India :-) I have had discussion with some indian friends on whats happening in pakistan and they think that they know exactly what will happen in Pakistan given that they read the news and I can see that they can't comprehend since most of the time they are missing the context and I don't expect to know all the detailed history and events that lead to certain situations.
Dont need for you to explain yourself :-) It was a compliment from me that you were trying to put a positive spin ....
Anyway, I agree that there are so many issues and problems facing both the countries - and if some dont want to admit it then they have to take their head out of the sand and feel the dust storm a little to get a dose of reality. Exploitation, oppression, suffering are the terms on either side of the border to describe the plight of the poor masses....but there are some die hard ostriches on both side who would rather leave their heads buried in the sand and dream of a fantastical landscape around them ;-) all powers to them....
The extremists on either side are employed to beat the war drums and keep the pressure built up from external threats so that these serious internal issues are not taking the center stage. Its much easier - stopping exploitation and working for improvement to the lives of millions is a hard slog and these lazy sons of guns rather amass wealth and live in luxury than do anything for the real masses.
I take your point about west bengal - but its my understanding and opinion that Bengalis are more open minded than other people. And, its in fact that tolerance and the mindset thats responsible for the absence of any real animosity that would result in bloody riots. And, in fact the emergence and staying power of the communists is evidence of this quality among the bengalis. Again, I may be completely wrong as I dont know the stats/facts about communal/religious riots in bengal pre/post communist government.
I understand your contention about congress' responsibility in the 1984 anti sikh riots but I still believe that a political party has to have a well oiled killing machine to kill 4000 people in 4 days - in my opinion it has to be the common man on the street who had some simmering animosity to have lead to these many deaths...
Anyway, I agree that there are so many issues and problems facing both the countries - and if some dont want to admit it then they have to take their head out of the sand and feel the dust storm a little to get a dose of reality. Exploitation, oppression, suffering are the terms on either side of the border to describe the plight of the poor masses....but there are some die hard ostriches on both side who would rather leave their heads buried in the sand and dream of a fantastical landscape around them ;-) all powers to them....
The extremists on either side are employed to beat the war drums and keep the pressure built up from external threats so that these serious internal issues are not taking the center stage. Its much easier - stopping exploitation and working for improvement to the lives of millions is a hard slog and these lazy sons of guns rather amass wealth and live in luxury than do anything for the real masses.
I take your point about west bengal - but its my understanding and opinion that Bengalis are more open minded than other people. And, its in fact that tolerance and the mindset thats responsible for the absence of any real animosity that would result in bloody riots. And, in fact the emergence and staying power of the communists is evidence of this quality among the bengalis. Again, I may be completely wrong as I dont know the stats/facts about communal/religious riots in bengal pre/post communist government.
I understand your contention about congress' responsibility in the 1984 anti sikh riots but I still believe that a political party has to have a well oiled killing machine to kill 4000 people in 4 days - in my opinion it has to be the common man on the street who had some simmering animosity to have lead to these many deaths...
Unicorn
Banned
Dynamics of religion are similar in Asia with a couple of exceptions like Japan
How come durga devi could not foretell her violent death, that is if she was a Durga mata, if she was than she would have known about her fiat, but did not so she was not Durga devi
Her violent death was the proof that she was lair, cheater and killer of innocent.
Unicorn
Banned
Devis are reincarnated all the times. But the question is did she ever made this statement?
Mullah Omar
Minister (2k+ posts)
If only you scrutinized lies against Pakistan from people like Shashi Tharoor just like you are scrutinizing this claim.
Unicorn
Banned
Respected Khallifa of Afganistan, Mr. Mullah Omar, When you mention that I should scrutinize lies from " people like Shashi Tharoor " I can non be much help. If you can tell me any lie from Shashi Tharoor I will definately scrutinize it. Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule.
Mullah Omar
Minister (2k+ posts)
I really don't think I need to point out all the baseless lies this guy, just like plenty of other indians, spew against our country and especially our armed forces.
Unicorn
Banned
There is difference between lies and opinions. I have seen BBC and other documentaries of the west about Pakistani army and I can provide you as an evidence if you want. If I or anyone ells renders an opinion based on that it is not a lie. If you ask me show me your evidence I will. Many Pakistanis also criticize their army. In this case Pakistani Journalists are accusing India of engaging in a civilizatonal war not with Pakistan but with Muslims. Is it unfair for me to ask for evidence? or to investigate this serious claim.
