اسپیکرکسی کا ووٹ تسلیم نہیں کرتا تو اسے چینلج نہیں کیا جاسکتا،انورمنصور خان

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وزیراعظم عمران خان کیخلاف تحریک عدم اعتماد جمع ہوگئی، تحریک پر ووٹنگ بھی ہوجائے گی، اپوزیشن کا دعویٰ ہے کہ ان کے نمبر گیمز پورے ہیں، جیت ان کا مقدر بنے گی اور وزیراعظم کو جانا ہوگا۔

تحریک پر ووٹنگ کے حوالے سے بھی کئی اصول ہیں، جس پر جی این این کے پروگرام ویو پوائنٹ میں میزبان ثمینہ رمضان نے سینیئر تجزیہ کار اور سابق اٹارنی جنرل انور منصور خان سے اس حوالے سے گفتگو کی۔

انور منصور خان نے واضح طور پر کہا کہ اسپیکر قومی اسمبلی اگر کسی کا ووٹ تسلیم نہیں کرتا تو پھر اس کو بھی عدالت میں نہیں لایا جاسکتا ہے،اگر ایم این اے کو ووٹ کرنے نہیں دیا جائے تو وہ اسے ہائیکورٹ میں چیلنج نہیں ہوسکتا،وجہ یہ ہے پارلیمنٹ کے اندر کی کارروائی کو چیلنج نہیں کیا جاسکتا۔

https://twitter.com/x/status/1502709055533596673
دوسری جانب وزیراعظم عمران خان کے خلاف جمع تحریک عدم اعتماد ضابطے کے مطابق قرار دے دی گئی ہے،ذرائع کے مطابق تحریک اور ریکوزیشن پر اپوزیشن اراکین کے دستخطوں کی تصدیق ہوگئی ہے، کسی رکن کے دستخط مشکوک یا رول آف سائن کے خلاف نہیں ہیں۔

ذرائع کے مطابق قومی اسمبلی شعبہ قانون سازی نے تمام ضوابط پورے کرنے کے بعد فائل اسپیکر کو بھجوا دی ہے،اس کے ساتھ ہی اسپیکر کو بائیس مارچ سے قبل اجلاس بلانے کی تجویز بھی دے دی گئی ہے، مشیر پارلیمانی امور بابر اعوان کہتے ہیں کہ عدم اعتماد کو آئین و قانون کے ذریعے پاش پاش کریں گے، دنیا کو تحریک عدم اعتماد ناکام کرکے دکھائیں گے،آئندہ حکومت بھی عمران خان کی ہوگی۔
 

Chillpill

Councller (250+ posts)
Youthio, you are blessed with foul mouth and no brains
So better ask the question to some sane person

what if PTI govt is toppled and Noon gets their speaker
speaker declares Wadi Tind eligible to run in elections
it still can`t be challenged in any court or then rule will change??
 

jigrot

Minister (2k+ posts)
Youthio, you are blessed with foul mouth and no brains
So better ask the question to some sane person

what if PTI govt is toppled and Noon gets their speaker
speaker declares Wadi Tind eligible to run in elections
it still can`t be challenged in any court or then rule will change??
Out of context
 

Eyeaan

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Youthio, you are blessed with foul mouth and no brains
ما شا اللہ ، کیا فرمان ہے ، آپ قسم کے دس بیس خاص دماغ والے دانشور اس ملک کو مل گئے تو ملک سنور جائے یا دنیا ہی سنور جائے۔۔
کچھ لوگ قدرے احمق ہوتے ہیں ، کچھ پیدائشی احمق ، کچھ پیدائشی اور حد سے زیادہ احمق ۔۔ آپ قسم کے دانشور تو یہ سب زاتی طور جانتے ہوں گے ۔
رہا آئین اور قانون کے چھوٹے چھوٹے مسائل ۔ آپ جیسے دانشور ان چھوٹے مسلوں میں سر نہ کھپائیں ، اس چھوٹے کام میں آپکو بلا فائدہ خواہ مخواہ شرمندگی ہو گی
۔​
 

Aslan

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Youthio, you are blessed with foul mouth and no brains
So better ask the question to some sane person

what if PTI govt is toppled and Noon gets their speaker
speaker declares Wadi Tind eligible to run in elections
it still can`t be challenged in any court or then rule will change??
Wadi Tind is a convicted criminal.Speaker has no authority to over throw court decisions.The courts can’t interfere with the proceedings of the parliament
 

Chillpill

Councller (250+ posts)
Wadi Tind is a convicted criminal.Speaker has no authority to over throw court decisions.The courts can’t interfere with the proceedings of the parliament
Oye Chawal when speaker can`t be challenged in courts so who cares what he does
just like Presidential pardon ... they are convicted from courts too
 

Eyeaan

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Youthio, you are blessed with foul mouth and no brains
So better ask the question to some sane person

what if PTI govt is toppled and Noon gets their speaker
speaker declares Wadi Tind eligible to run in elections
it still can`t be challenged in any court or then rule will change??
The speaker can give a ruling ON THE FLOOR PROCEEDINGS whatever he deems right and cannot be challenged in any court of law - AND cannot be negated by parliament members as well be that by a majority or a minority. Also speakers decision is ultimately his own decision - he is not bound by house rules and the speaker's ruling become the new procedure for the house.
However, the majority can remove a Speaker and a new speaker can make a new ruling but cannot annul the past ruling
.
Speaker or anyone else cannot interfere in the court proceedings and a judgements or negate the court's ruling. especially the highest court. Further EVERYONE in the administration or ANY citizen or Armed forces or any institution is bound to follow court's orders and obey. ( exceptions - the first ONLY the PROCEEDINGS on the floor , the Second exception is for the president, the third exception is how forces carry out during the war. A soldier is to obey the commander and follow forces rule/oath and none else).

This is called the separation of powers

So in spite of any action of speaker or the whole parliament, if the court judges one is not a PM or is disqualified or orders not to take oath etc. - none can disobey including the "so-called" elected PM. and If he/she disobeys, he/she commits high treason.

Separation of Powers in accordance with Pak Constitution.
1. Speaker's ruling is final on the Floor Proceedings. None can interfere or annul speaker's ruling.
2. Parliament's law is the law of the land - The court cannot annul it per se- However the court can suspend it by its OWN order or ask parliament to amend it or suggest a new law. However a law will stay on books as de jure until parliament removes it
3. Court's decision , order or interpretation of a law is final It is a de facto law which must be obeyed by all including the parliamentarians.
4. The court cannot make government policy - however it can reject it or accept it or suspend it or can recommend a new policy. Same about the budget or money spending - the court cannot interfere in or ask to alter budget or ask for spending -- that is administrator (PM's job). However court can judge whether the money is spent lawfully.
 
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Eyeaan

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Oye Chawal when speaker can`t be challenged in courts so who cares what he does
just like Presidential pardon ... they are convicted from courts too
Speaker can order or do whatever ONLY in proceedings of the Floor - not outside the floor. His ruling have no effect outside + everybody outside in the land is bound to obey the court - and not the speaker.
 

Chillpill

Councller (250+ posts)
Speaker can order or do whatever ONLY in proceedings of the Floor - not outside the floor. His ruling have no effect outside + everybody outside in the land is bound to obey the court - and not the speaker.
exactly ... speaker has to remain within realms of the constitution, he can`t declare man a woman or vice versa, similarly he can`t invent law that he can force any member of the Parliament not to vote on any issue including no confidence move unless member is legally suspended, he has no such authority.
 

Salman Mughal

Minister (2k+ posts)
Youthio, you are blessed with foul mouth and no brains
So better ask the question to some sane person

what if PTI govt is toppled and Noon gets their speaker
speaker declares Wadi Tind eligible to run in elections
it still can`t be challenged in any court or then rule will change??

LoLu Bubble gum khaye gha? LoLu Yeh level hai tum logon ki aqal ka.
 

Eyeaan

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
exactly ... speaker has to remain within realms of the constitution, he can`t declare man a woman or vice versa, similarly he can`t invent law that he can force any member of the Parliament not to vote on any issue including no confidence move unless member is legally suspended, he has no such authority.
What realm of constitutions?
Any member of parliament ( and the speaker is a member) can say whatever on Floor of the house and cannot be held accountable in any court. If a member ON the floor says that "A man is a women," none can hold him/her (legally) accountable , as a person or as a house. Voter is the judge what he/she says on the floor.
House proceedings are limited to running of the affairs of the house, the speaker is concerned to by constitution - for running/presiding the house. The proceedings relates to how and with rules the laws are passed. Proceeding do not relate to what laws are pass, which is by a majority of members And a speaker rarely votes. for a law unless necessary.

Parliament's majority can make ANY law - in accordance with the rules of House.
The rules of the house are made by the house itself (except for those election listed in the constitution (i.e. speaker, pm, etc). Any speaker's ruling become a procedure, however a speaker generally follow a) house tradition , b) foreign house traditions and c) past ruling along with decisions of house committee for rules. But a speaker can decide whatever beyond the norms. So to answer you, s a majority can pass a law that A man is a women, following house procedures. There is no bar in the constitution not to pass such a law.- but of course such a crazy law will be challenged in the court and rejected.
( There are a few operative bars regarding budget and money bills matters and for Secrecy acts, war conduct because that is partially the job of PM or relate to national security)


There are preambles in the constitution which state purposes, and aims of the state and the nation. A parliament is expected to follow preambles or fulfill its basic duty to achieve goals given in preambles..
However, preambles are not the laws and cannot become the basis of a case in the court. (for example the preambles say everyone should be provided education as a basic right but one cannot file a case for violating constitution on this basis)

So the court adjudges only on the laws passed by the Parliaments. It judges those laws on the basis of a) that the aims and functions in preambles are followed and not negated, b) Natural justice for example fairness, c) Common laws which are the past decisions of the courts inland or abroad d) in part on literal wordings in the constitution and e) the intent of the original constitution makers.
Parliament is supreme - it can pass a law whatever and its members can think and interpret of preambles whatever. Of course, if they make a blundered, they will be snubbed in no time in the court and by the public and will be practically stopped by administration.
 

Chillpill

Councller (250+ posts)
What realm of constitutions?
Any member of parliament ( and the speaker is a member) can say whatever on Floor of the house and cannot be held accountable in any court. If a member ON the floor says that "A man is a women," none can hold him/her (legally) accountable , as a person or as a house. Voter is the judge what he/she says on the floor.
House proceedings are limited to running of the affairs of the house, the speaker is concerned to by constitution - for running/presiding the house. The proceedings relates to how and with rules the laws are passed. Proceeding do not relate to what laws are pass, which is by a majority of members And a speaker rarely votes. for a law unless necessary.

Parliament's majority can make ANY law - in accordance with the rules of House.
The rules of the house are made by the house itself (except for those election listed in the constitution (i.e. speaker, pm, etc). Any speaker's ruling become a procedure, however a speaker generally follow a) house tradition , b) foreign house traditions and c) past ruling along with decisions of house committee for rules. But a speaker can decide whatever beyond the norms. So to answer you, s a majority can pass a law that A man is a women, following house procedures. There is no bar in the constitution not to pass such a law.- but of course such a crazy law will be challenged in the court and rejected.
( There are a few operative bars regarding budget and money bills matters and for Secrecy acts, war conduct because that is partially the job of PM or relate to national security)


There are preambles in the constitution which state purposes, and aims of the state and the nation. A parliament is expected to follow preambles or fulfill its basic duty to achieve goals given in preambles..
However, preambles are not the laws and cannot become the basis of a case in the court. (for example the preambles say everyone should be provided education as a basic right but one cannot file a case for violating constitution on this basis)

So the court adjudges only on the laws passed by the Parliaments. It judges those laws on the basis of a) that the aims and functions in preambles are followed and not negated, b) Natural justice for example fairness, c) Common laws which are the past decisions of the courts inland or abroad d) in part on literal wordings in the constitution and e) the intent of the original constitution makers.
Parliament is supreme - it can pass a law whatever and its members can think and interpret of preambles whatever. Of course, if they make a blundered, they will be snubbed in no time in the court and by the public and will be practically stopped by administration.

Oye yar you are spending too much time explaining the basics
Constitution says that a member can vote to his his free will barring money bills and no trust move but they can still vote and a procedure is adopted to disqualify them.
You can't punish someone before he has committed the crime so speaker does not know which way anyone is going to vote so how can he stop them.
All this will probably become irrelevant if Q MQM walk out of the Govt and then onus will be on IK to take vote of confidence and we seem to be heading this way now.
 

Eyeaan

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
exactly ... speaker has to remain within realms of the constitution, he can`t declare man a woman or vice versa, similarly he can`t invent law that he can force any member of the Parliament not to vote on any issue including no confidence move unless member is legally suspended, he has no such authority.
In case the speaker decides to snub the voting of the declared dissident members
Those will not be votes and will not enter in the tally .
Afterwards a case will be filed in the supreme court maybe on the following basis and questions.

1. Court's jurisdiction on the proceedings of the house (court will reject the case if it follows its past decisions)
2. Since VONC, is a part of constitution whether it is wholly a procedural matter or a constitutional matter at large. (Court may accept the case for hearing on this basis)
If accepted, the court will seek arguments and decide upon
1. Intent of 63-A - what the framers wanted to achieve. Does the rules (speakers decision) fulfills the aims or hinders it. (our activist judges will love this question)
2. Is it just to all parties , especially to the opposition, fairness
3. Is the constitution ambiguous and contradicting.. is it unfair to the members and to basics of representative democracy.
4. Is it fair to the voter to give too much power to the party head than to the voters.
5.Whether the correct procedure was followed to declare a member as dissident. Is a decision of party head enough to know someone's intent. What is the role of EC in this case.. Opposition will focus on this.
 

Chillpill

Councller (250+ posts)
In case the speaker decides to snub the voting of the declared dissident members
Those will not be votes and will not enter in the tally .
Afterwards a case will be filed in the supreme court maybe on the following basis and questions.

1. Court's jurisdiction on the proceedings of the house (court will reject the case if it follows its past decisions)
2. Since VONC, is a part of constitution whether it is wholly a procedural matter or a constitutional matter at large. (Court may accept the case for hearing on this basis)
If accepted, the court will seek arguments and decide upon
1. Intent of 63-A - what the framers wanted to achieve. Does the rules (speakers decision) fulfills the aims or hinders it. (our activist judges will love this question)
2. Is it just to all parties , especially to the opposition, fairness
3. Is the constitution ambiguous and contradicting.. is it unfair to the members and to basics of representative democracy.
4. Is it fair to the voter to give too much power to the party head than to the voters.
5.Whether the correct procedure was followed to declare a member as dissident. Is a decision of party head enough to know someone's intent. What is the role of EC in this case.. Opposition will focus on this.
Constitution is not ambitious so please don't make a mountain out of molehill, constitution has a clause to punish any member for their wrong doing and a process is set for it. voting is a fundamental right of a common man and a member of Parliament and anyone stopping him / her will face criminal proceedings. If Qaisar is willing to take this risk to go to jail, le it be then ....
As i said this discussion is becoming irrelevant as coalition partners are likely to come out tomorrow or day after and do a presser for leaving Govt, so onus will turn to IK to take vote of confidence.

irrelevant but just for your info ... a no confidence move against speaker can be filed at any time and he has to immediately hand over duties (his deputy as well) to a nominated person and we might see this opposition Plan B.
 

Eyeaan

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Constitution is not ambitious so please don't make a mountain out of molehill, constitution has a clause to punish any member for their wrong doing and a process is set for it. voting is a fundamental right of a common man and a member of Parliament and anyone stopping him / her will face criminal proceedings. If Qaisar is willing to take this risk to go to jail, le it be then ....
As i said this discussion is becoming irrelevant as coalition partners are likely to come out tomorrow or day after and do a presser for leaving Govt, so onus will turn to IK to take vote of confidence.

irrelevant but just for your info ... a no confidence move against speaker can be filed at any time and he has to immediately hand over duties (his deputy as well) to a nominated person and we might see this opposition Plan B.
I'm only listing what opposition may argue.
That a representational democracy gives rights to a member to vote for his/her leader just like any other vote on the floor - and not to the political parties. This mandate is given by the voters. . So barring members (that by amendment to the constitution ) to vote freely for their leader is against democracy . Thus the amendment should be declared null and void on the basis of being contrary to the basic democratic structure. It also creates a tyranny of PM over the party and parliament. PM can dissolve the parliament anytime and that is enough remedy to overcome (illegal) dissent in the party.

Of course, looking at the past history of Pakistan I do not agree with this argument ( and fully support that such vote should not be allowed on the floor for the sake long-term stability) but still that is an argument for the opponents. India had brought a similar amendment in the center bring stability and avoid blackmailing; we have followed them . However at state level, Indian politics is marred by buying members with money and blackmailing member with legal threats often by central government.