Allama Ghulam Ahmad Parwez's threads collections

[Abdul Allah]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Yes past ka he zikar hai. main ne kub kaha k present ka zikar hai...???



[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]

Plus wahin hai jahan plus ko dekh kar tum ne break laga di hai.

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]پھر ان کی عہد شکنی کے باعث ہم نے اُن پر لعنت کی اوراُن کے دلوں کوسخت کر دیا [/FONT][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]وہ لوگ کلام کو ا سکے ٹھکانے سے بدلتے ہیں اور اس نصیحت سے نفع اٹھانا بھول گئے جو انہیں کی گئی تھی اور تو ہمشیہ ان کی کسی نہ کسی خیانت پر اطلاع پاتا رہے گا مگر تھوڑے ان میں سے [/FONT]​

Khayanat ka zikar aik separate hassiyat main nahi hai ... jaisa k tumhari khawahish hai

Wohi log jin pe curse ki gayi hai ... onhi logon ki mazeed khasoosiyat aage bayan hui hai... onhi "mazeed khasoosiat" k liye I used "plus".





See Urdu Translation below:

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]اور جب ان کے پاس اللہ کی طرف سے کتاب آئی جو تصدیق کرتی ہے اس کی جو ان کے پاس ہے اور اس سے پہلے وہ کفار پر فتح مانگا کرتے تھے پھر جب ان کے پاس وہ چیز آئی جسے انہوں نے پہچان لیا تو اس کا انکارکیاسوکافروں پر الله کی لعنت ہے (۸۹)

[/FONT]​

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]Yes Kitaab Allah ka inkaar karne waale Jews/Christians wo nahi hain jin ka zikar 2:62,5:69 aur 7;159 main hai... 5;69,2:62 aur 7:159 wale Jews/Christians Haqooq Allah poore karte hain.


[/FONT]​

Yahi tumhari dishonesty hai... aik dafa phir 7:157 ko quote kar diya aur phir 7;159 ko gol kar gaye.

And of Moses' folk there is a community who lead with truth and establish justice therewith. (7:159)




You are only a dishonest person. I have explained my point of view quite sufficiently. Now onwords I will reply to only those points that will not smell your dishonesty. Like you know those few are exempt from curse but you are not accepting.

It is Established FACT that Even Those few Did not fulfil the Convent YES or NO??
And it is Established FACT that Those who BREACH Convent are under CURSE

and Darguzar karny sy Muraad Dunia par unsy Darguzar karna hy na K Allah k Haaan Laanaat sy chutkara


You said

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]Yes Kitaab Allah ka inkaar karne waale Jews/Christians wo nahi hain jin ka zikar 2:62,5:69 aur 7;159 main hai... 5;69,2:62 aur 7:159 wale Jews/Christians Haqooq Allah poore karte hain.

1) So you are saying Unhoon ny Kitaab Ul Allah ka inkar nahi kia?? YES or NO?? Answer[/FONT]
2) Quran Kitab Ul Allah hy k nahi?? Yes or NO (Yes offcourse na)
3) Quran kahta hy Rasool Allah par eman lao(Yes or no)??
4) Hazoor Ko man ny ka hukam Quran main hy FOR ALL HUMANS tu jo na many us ny Quran ka inkar kia Yes or No
5)whom they find written of with them in the Tawrah and the Injil, sy Ya pata chalta hy k Hazoor SW Injeel aur Tawarh main bhi hain. Jinhoon ny Hazoor SW ko nahi mana kaya wo Injeel or Tawarh k inkar nahi kia?? kaya ya Allah ki Book ka inkar nahi hy Yes or no??



7:159 main lead with truth and establish justice say kaya baat sabbat hoti hy?? k unhoon ny Allah ki Book ka Inkar nahi kia?? agar nahi kia tu again upar walay points ka answer sochain and post kardain.

and Main ny 7:159 ko gol nahi kia main ny jo baat ap ko samjhany ki try ki thi wo ya thi k 2:89 main Allah ki kitaab ko na man ny waloon par curse hy. ub agar ap ya kahoo k un par sirf un batoon par eman laina zaroor hy jo unki kitaaboon ko confirm karain tu 7:157 sy ya baat sabit hy k unki kitaabon main bhi Hazoor SW ka clear zikar hy (convent bhi lia gaya unsay) so is baat ka inkar bhi Kitaab ka inkar hy


Jinhoon ny Quran ka inkar kia wo under Curse hain. Quran / Injeel / Tawarah main Hazoor SW ka clearly mention hy Ub agar koi Hazoor SW ko na many tu wo

1) Breach of convent ki waja sy b under curse hy
2) Aur Allah ki kitaab Quran(and Injeel aur Tawarh) ko na man ny par bhi under curse hy

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Dear brother Abdullah, please listen to following darse quran by parwez sb, it explains what verses like these mean and why.

http://archive.org/details/DarseQuranSuraAlAraafAyah111To129ByGhulamAhmedParwez

Here is my translation of first 9 verses of the surah as it makes sense to me even though I asked you to translate them for me but you did not. However you can translate the following verses and then I will translate the verses you have asked me about.

I see from your responses that your problems is sticking to word for word conversion of the quranic text which seems wrong to me for the reason I have explained. To add to that if I follow your idea then I will have problem explaining verses which use a single word on its own or only a couple of words in verses and that way the message will not translate. This is why explanation must replace the word for word because objective is to convey message not just provide an alternative word for a word. As I already explained that no language necessarily has an equivalent word for all words used in the quran. This is why exact word for word translation is impossible altogether, so all so called exact translations are just trying to convey the message and they are not consistent because here and there they end up resorting to explanations. If you disagree then what you can do is point out any translation of your choice as exact according to you and then leave it to me to prove it you that it is but an exact translation of the actual text of the quran. All translator use MAFOOMI translations that simply try to convey the message as understood by the translators. My point is that it is better to have better explanatory translations particularly for nonmuslims because then they are less likely to raise so many objections if things are explained better the first time and the problem is also likely to reduce among muslims because so many questions arise in minds of people due to lacks in translations tat fail to convey consistency about any particular point of view.

Surah 20 AL-TAA HAA

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

[1] Tua Haa.

[2] We have not sent this Qur’an to you the people so that you continue suffering tyranny

[3] rather it is sent as plan of action for such people who are concerned about it

[4] sent by Him Who evolved this galaxy and the galaxies farthest away.

[5] The gracious Who presides over the thrown of this kingdom,

[6] to whom belongs whatever is in the galaxies far away and whatever is in this galaxy as well as all that lies in between them and all that the heavenly bodies are composed of.

[7] So if you express your mission clearly then He will make it known to the open as well as the closed communities.

[8] Such is Allah, none is God but He alone! To Him belong the names that manifest His goodness.

[9] So has the story of people of Moses reached you about His goodness?

My point is not that this is perfect translation but to me it seems ok unless you could point out any serious problem with it as well as offer a problem free translation yourself. If there are no perfect translations and we cannot come up wit any ourselves then we have to agree that explanation of the message is better way of conveying the quranic message than fighting over translations. If you look at verse 7 the textual construction is unique and cannot be conveyed through word for word translation. The sense conveyed by words in this verse cannot be conveyed in any language without adding explanation. So if we are forced by the quran in so many places to convey the sense then why restrict translation to word for word which does not serve the purpose? Not only that it is due to these translations we are fighting wit each other and nonmuslims are also thinking the fault sis actually in the quran that its message not understood even by muslims that is how they fail to convey it. This is why Allaama parwez does not follow this idea at all because it confuses more than it helps those who have thinking minds but do not know the language of the quran. This way we are driving people away from the message of the quran instead of bringing them closer to it.

Unless you realise what I realise I am afraid we are not going to agree just now may be it needs time for these points to sink in. It shows how Allaama parwez was far ahead of us in his thinking.

It is for the same reason I cannot translate any verses from anywhere because the context needs to be understood before one could give any sensible meanings to any words because translating the quran is a serious business. It is therefore not right for anyone to translation individual verses without trying to understand the full context of information involved. The story of moosa and bani isreal is spread all over the quran and that needs to be understood if we wish to say anything in this matter.

The problem of mullahs is different because they choose a verse that is already understood in a particular context according to their individual aqeedahs so they talk about it in that context but problem with thinkers is that they try to understand the actual message as it is without getting involved in arguments for proving any aqeedah. If you try to prove any aqeedah then you have lost the argument because the purpose of new look at the quran is to see the truth not what my aqeedah is and it is right because I have some quranic verses that say that. It is this very aqeedah thing that has stopped muslims ummah from developing. Our aim should be to realise the best explanations of the quran and then worry about our beliefs after having discovered the evidence rather then saying I am right and then to prove my point I collect verses and thereby end up proving the quran wrong.

This is why the first step is to set up the firm criterion then see if the quran measure ok with it and then if it does by all means tak up those beliefs as convictions. Doing things this way you cannot go wrong. It should not be our worry whether the quran is true or false our worry should be to see that we have fair criterion and we are fair in judging the quran for its truth. If then it proves to true then it is fine if it proves to be false then that too must be accepted the same way. People who come to quran through such understanding cannot be defeated by anyone though we are brought up to believe things otherwise and we can see the results for doing that. Each our generation has been getting worse than the one before it. So if we want to change all this for the better then we must accept to learn the quran the right way.

regards and all the best.

please answer the question about Shan Nazool in your words (please short) in the light of the Ayat I sent


Yes while tranlsation we can not do the EXACT but we can not add words of our own to the translation to over come language bariers we use () to add words to link the translation. But

Again i would sy that please post the Translation not Tafseer.

like what you have sent is not Translation but Tafseer. ok let me ask you few questions about your translation

فَإِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ السِّرَّ وَأَخْفَى


You translate it as "He will make it known to the open as well as the closed communities." If you call it translation not tafseer then please tell me which word of the Ayath is translated as "Communities."

 

[Mughal1]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Dear brother, shaane nazool I have answered completely through criticism ie it is not at all reliable because of a lot of conflicting reports on one hand about a lot of verses and a lot of information missing about other verses. Due to such like inconsistencies which are obvious from tafaseer books if you have read them.

If you must prove shaane nazool means anything then you will have to show that the quran was truly explained by the prophet himself and in that case any tafaseer by people themselves would have become invalid because Allah said something and prophet explained it then no more explanation should be necessary or needed. If Allah fails to explain his book and his prophet fails to explain his book and all past generations fail to explain it properly then where does that leave us regarding this theory? If we accept that we necessarily need other explanations then we are talking about explanations of explanations and that way we are asking for an unending chain of explanations. In that case what is the purpose the quran itself serves if it depends on such like chain of explanations? This way we will end up dead and have no idea at all about the quran.

These like arguments against shaane nazool prove beyond a shadow of doubt that all this hype about shaane nazool is for nothing at all. What we can say at the most is that these are peoples' private sayings and their odd personal experiences and in a way give us insight in to history of the quran and islam as regard their development or progress. It is like I came to see you and you were sitting with your friends and whatever I witnessed there I report it as I saw and heard. That is all nothing less and nothing more. It is just a news reports and by giving it importance people used it to derail the quran through the back door ie by stealth.

So please try and understand what I am trying to explain. I do not discount reports altogether all I am saying is to rely on shaane nazool is wrong but to accept it as history it is fine. The reason is that if you make something as basis for islam then you cannot afford to be without it and in that case you must prove it reliable but if you accept it just as a piece of information then you do not have to prove it reliable to fulfil the criterion of reliability. It is because if you accept shane nazool theory then the quran must be interpreted by it and then if it makes no sense then that simply means the quran is false. By keeping quran disconnected from wrong ideas and theories as an independent source that is self reliant you give the quran its true place.

This way if any report is according to the quran then that can be accepted if not then it can be rejected. In either case the quran does not suffer because of doing that. The same is true about theory of quran must be interpreted by hadith. I have proven in my other posts that that too is a wrong rule to have because it does not work because if hadith depends on quran for its authenticity then it cannot be source for its interpretation till the quran is interpreted first. If the quran is to be interpreted by hadith then where are ahadith for each and every verse explaining it clearly? If only odd verse is explained then where is sense in taking this idea seriously as a matter of rule? This is why it is better not to accept such make belief ideas as basis for islam. This however does not mean hadith is useless but that it has its role as historical information as to how islam came about and developed during the life of the prophet and during life of later generations. Since true and false information has been muddled up together therefore if anything is according to the quran accept it if not reject it. Again rejecting or accepting any hadith has no effect on reliability of the quran as the fundamental and unique source of islam.

By giving fundamental position to shaane nazool and hadith based interpretations we shut door to thinking and become stuck in the rut. No educated person who has given this matter a serious thought and claims to be a muslim can ignore what I am stating here. It is only and only ignorant mullahs who do not want to learn themselves and educate ummah to help it progress and prosper are in this business or those who deliberately want to damage muslim ummah. So we should not be part of their game instead we should try our best to live up to the quran and thus show the world what islam is all about. So long as we support wrong people in the ummah they are only going to keep ummah where they have kept it for centuries ie stuck in the rut.

I have already explained these things in my other posts and I am only repeating which is not a good use of my time which I do not have. So please believe as you know better my point is only to explain whatever I can as much as I can the rest is up to individuals to see what makes sense and what does not and accept or eject it accordingly. To me making the quran dependent upon hadith is unacceptable and I have explained that with reasons. If my reasoning is not good it should be replaced with the better one but issue is not going to go away just because of our make beliefs. If you want to understand things please connect the dots and you will begin to see the full picture. We just isolate different points from each other therefore we do not realise conflicts and contradictions we introduce in to islam and quranic concepts which not only cause sectism within ummah but give anti islam elements stick to beat us with.

1) The first stage of our learning is real world realities that become our life experiences. This is why there is no any other as reliable source of information as this.

2) The life experiences we have help us put the criterion together for judging truth and falsehood, right and wrong, good or bad, beneficial or harmful etc.

3) Anything that contradicts our set criterion based upon our wisdom is false be it attributed to God as his word.

4) Once something proves true according to set out criterion only then that can be relied upon eg the quran is word of God only if it proves true according to this criterion otherwise it is not.

5) If the quran proves to be true only then any hadith according to the quran is true not otherwise.

6) Any explanation of the quran and hadith is only true if it meets this criterion otherwise not.

For more detail please see other posts.



Coming to 20/7, the prophet is sent to all communities on a mission and that mission is delivery of the quranic message. This message is all about the set goal (islam=peace) for mankind as a whole ie human community which is divided in to many communities for various reasons. Some open to new ideas some not but the message must be delivered to all.

Since message is for all people of all communities which is very clear from other parts of the quranic text itself therefore rule of tasreef gives us right to translate the quran through itself ie translation of the quran by the quran itself or as molvi sahibaan know it tafseer al quran bil quran. If tafseer bil hadith is ok by them then why not tafseer bil quran? The surah itself begins with talking about a people as a community including the prophet that are given the mission to put the world right through education and organisation.

Also in verse 9 Allah is beginning story of people of moosa as a community to whom Allah shown his mercy before this ummah. My way of reading the quran is very different from the usual because I see all the verses connected together. I mean surah begins with talking about human communities being in difficulty and the quran is given so tat people are educated thereby and organised in a way that they help themselves out of difficulty through their own hard work and story of moosa and his people is brought in to explain how it was done before through mission that was given to moosa for israelites and egyptians. How message was made to reach through open and close communities. If we use explanatory translations then such use of words is not against rule of translation. If you are not aware please study various translations by various translators. TARJAME KA KAAM PEGHAAM KI TARJUMAANI KARNA HAI NA KE LAFZUN KI JO NAMUMKIN HAI ie you can only express the message as you understand it and you can never express meanings of words because meanings of words in one language are not exactly the same as in the other language. Even sentence structure is very different. For example, in english if we say, he is reading a book. We have subject, auxiliary verb, main verb, indefinite article and the object. In URDU we have woh aik kitaab pad raha hai, we have subject, indefinite article, object, main verb and auxiliary verb. here subject=faail is indicated by isme zameer which is third person pronoun in singular form. The object=MAFOOL is a common noun in singular form. The main verb indicates continuous tense form. So even if we put together words in wrong order we will have difficulty never mind trying to figure out which meaning of a word we should select from the available variety. The general idea of translation is ok for ordinary use where conveying the message in a conceptual or contextual or ideological way is not that important, however the the quran is only important because of its message. So if you lose the sense of message then what are you left with? This is why it is good idea to translate the quran this way because it gives the reader the idea what you mean to convey as your understanding of the message. Otherwise you fail to convey anything useful at all ie any other way you do not transfer message of the quran because you do not know which meaning of word to choose nor what you make of it. So the end result is just confusion. If in doubt please translate verses 10-16 of surah 20. What is meaning of each of these words used in there and what concepts the quran is trying to indicate to us by use of these words?

It is these like confusions that have given rise to so many misunderstandings that we have ended up so divided about each and everything. However if others do not consider this idea useful that is up to them.

Hope this explains my position. regards and all the best.

 

[iceburg]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

It is Established FACT that Even Those few Did not fulfil the Convent YES or NO??
And it is Established FACT that Those who BREACH Convent are under CURSE

and Darguzar karny sy Muraad Dunia par unsy Darguzar karna hy na K Allah k Haaan Laanaat sy chutkara


You said

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]Yes Kitaab Allah ka inkaar karne waale Jews/Christians wo nahi hain jin ka zikar 2:62,5:69 aur 7;159 main hai... 5;69,2:62 aur 7:159 wale Jews/Christians Haqooq Allah poore karte hain.

1) So you are saying Unhoon ny Kitaab Ul Allah ka inkar nahi kia?? YES or NO?? Answer[/FONT]
2) Quran Kitab Ul Allah hy k nahi?? Yes or NO (Yes offcourse na)
3) Quran kahta hy Rasool Allah par eman lao(Yes or no)??
4) Hazoor Ko man ny ka hukam Quran main hy FOR ALL HUMANS tu jo na many us ny Quran ka inkar kia Yes or No
5)whom they find written of with them in the Tawrah and the Injil, sy Ya pata chalta hy k Hazoor SW Injeel aur Tawarh main bhi hain. Jinhoon ny Hazoor SW ko nahi mana kaya wo Injeel or Tawarh k inkar nahi kia?? kaya ya Allah ki Book ka inkar nahi hy Yes or no??



7:159 main lead with truth and establish justice say kaya baat sabbat hoti hy?? k unhoon ny Allah ki Book ka Inkar nahi kia?? agar nahi kia tu again upar walay points ka answer sochain and post kardain.

and Main ny 7:159 ko gol nahi kia main ny jo baat ap ko samjhany ki try ki thi wo ya thi k 2:89 main Allah ki kitaab ko na man ny waloon par curse hy. ub agar ap ya kahoo k un par sirf un batoon par eman laina zaroor hy jo unki kitaaboon ko confirm karain tu 7:157 sy ya baat sabit hy k unki kitaabon main bhi Hazoor SW ka clear zikar hy (convent bhi lia gaya unsay) so is baat ka inkar bhi Kitaab ka inkar hy


Jinhoon ny Quran ka inkar kia wo under Curse hain. Quran / Injeel / Tawarah main Hazoor SW ka clearly mention hy Ub agar koi Hazoor SW ko na many tu wo

1) Breach of convent ki waja sy b under curse hy
2) Aur Allah ki kitaab Quran(and Injeel aur Tawarh) ko na man ny par bhi under curse hy

I don't have time for pointless debates .......... tum simple si baat ka jawab de do. 2:62 ka kya matlab hai....???

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

I don't have time for pointless debates .......... tum simple si baat ka jawab de do. 2:62 ka kya matlab hai....???

I have given you so many points bhai
and


(62. Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians (Sabi'in), whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.)


under the light of 5:12-13, 2:89 and 7:157-158

it is clear that in 2:62,7:159 main wo log he a sakty

1) Jo Hazoor SW sy pahly thy
2) Jin tak Hazoor Ka pagham nai pohancha
3) yaan wo log jo Curse wali clear Ayat sy pahly tak apny orignal deen par kaim thy

warna 5:12-13, 2:89 and 7:157-158 ki koi waja nai banti.

and please

2:89 ko parho phir sy please
(89. And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them (the Tawrah) and the Injil (Gospel), although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for the coming of Muhammad ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the curse of Allah be on the disbelievers.)

Kaya is Ayath ki roo sy Quran ko na man ny waly bhi under curse nahi hain?

agar ap kaho k 2:62 waloon ny Quran ka inkar nai kia. Iska koi logical answer hona chahye. Hazoor SW ko na man kar kaya wo Quran sy inkari honay k murtakib nahi hoay?

7:157 kahti ky injeel aur tawarh bi Hazoor pata batati hain .Kaya Hazoor SW ko na man kar unhain nabi na man kar kaya wo Injeel Tawarah and Quran k inkari nahi hoay?

and Quran/Injeel/Tawarah k inkari ho kar kaya wo 2:89 k mutabik under Allah k curse main na hoay?

please think

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Dear brother, shaane nazool I have answered completely through criticism ie it is not at all reliable because of a lot of conflicting reports on one hand about a lot of verses and a lot of information missing about other verses. Due to such like inconsistencies which are obvious from tafaseer books if you have read them.

If you must prove shaane nazool means anything then you will have to show that the quran was truly explained by the prophet himself and in that case any tafaseer by people themselves would have become invalid because Allah said something and prophet explained it then no more explanation should be necessary or needed. If Allah fails to explain his book and his prophet fails to explain his book and all past generations fail to explain it properly then where does that leave us regarding this theory? If we accept that we need other explanations then we are talking about explanations of explanations and that way we are asking for an unending chain of explanations. In that case what is the purpose the quran itself serves if it depends on such like chain of explanations?

These like arguments against shaane nazool prove beyond a shadow of doubt that all this hype about shaane nazool is for nothing at all. What we can say at the most is that these peoples' private saying and their odd personal experiences and in a way give us insight in to history of the quran. It is like I came to see you and you were sitting with your friends and whatever I witnessed there I report it as I saw and heard. That is all nothing less and nothing more. It is just a news reports and by giving it importance people used it to derail the quran through the back door ie by stealth.

So please try and understand what I am trying to explain. I do not discount reports altogether all I am saying is to rely on shaane nazool is wrong but to accept it as history it is fine. The reason is that if you make something as basis for islam then you cannot afford to be without it and in that case you must prove it reliable but if you accept it just as a piece of information then you do not have to prove it reliable to fulfil the criterion of reliability. It is because if you accept shane nazool theory then the quran must be interpreted by it and then if it makes no sense then that simply means it is false. By keeping quran disconnected from wrong ideas and theories as an independent source that is self reliant you give the quran its true place.

This way if any report is according to the quran then that can be accepted if not can be rejected. In either case the quran does not suffer because of doing that. The same is true about theory of quran must be interpreted by through hadith. I have proven in my other posts that that too is wrong rule because it does not work. If the quran is to be interpreted by hadith then where hadith for each and every verse explaining it clearly? If only odd verse is explained then where is sense in taking this idea seriously? This is why it is better not to accept such make beliefs ideas as basis for islam. This however does not mean hadith is useless but that it has its role as historical information s to how islam came about and developed during the life of the prophet and during life of later generations. Since true and false information has been muddled up therefore if anything if according to the quran accept it if not reject it. Again rejecting or accepting any hadith has no effect on reliability of the quran as the fundamental and unique source of islam.

By giving fundamental position to shaane nazool and hadith based interpretations we shut door to thinking and become stuck in the rut. No educated person who has given this matter a serious thought and claims to be a muslim can ignore what I am stating here. It is only and only ignorant mullahs who do not want to learn themselves and educate ummah to help it progress and prosper are in this business or those who deliberately want to damage muslim ummah. So we should not be part of their game instead we should try our best to live up to the quran and thus show the world what islam is all about. So long as we support wrong people in the ummah they are only going to keep ummah where they have kept it for centuries ie in the rut.

I have already explained these things in my other posts and I am only repeating which is not a good use of my time which I do not have. So please believe as you know better my point is only to explain whatever I can as much as I can the rest is up to individuals to see what makes sense and what does not and accept or eject it accordingly. To me making the quran dependent upon hadith is unacceptable and I have explained that with reasons. If my reasoning is not good it should be replaced with the better one but issue is not going to go away just because of our make beliefs. If you want to understand things please connect the dots and you will begin to see the full picture. We just isolate different points from each other therefore we do not realise conflicts and contradiction we introduce and live with regarding quran and islam.

1) The first stage of our learning is real world realities that become our life experiences. This is why there is no any other as reliable source of information as this.

2) The life experiences we have help us put the criterion together for judging truth and falsehood, right and wrong, good or bad, beneficial or harmful etc.

3) Anything that contradicts our set criterion based upon our wisdom is false be it attributed to God as his word.

4) Once something proves true according to set out criterion only then that can be relied upon eg the quran is word of God only if it proves true according to this criterion otherwise it is not.

5) If the quran proves to be true only then any hadith according to the quran is true not otherwise.

6) Any explanation of the quran and hadith is only true if it meets this criterion otherwise not.

For more detail please see other posts.



Coming to 20/7, the prophet is sent to all communities on a mission and that mission is delivery of the quranic message. This message is all about the set goal (islam=peace) for mankind as a whole ie human community which is divided in to many communities for various reasons. Some open to new ideas some not but the message must be delivered to all.

Since message is for all people of all communities which is very clear from other parts of the quranic text itself therefore rule of tasreef gives us right to translate the quran through itself ie translation of the quran by the quran itself or as molvi sahibaan know it tafseer al quran bil quran. If tafseer bil hadith is ok by them then why not tafseer bil quran? The surah itself begins with talking about a people as a community including the prophet that are given the mission to put the world right through education and organisation.

Also in verse 9 Allah is beginning story of people of moosa as a community to whom Allah shown his mercy before this ummah. My way of reading the quran is very different from the usual because I see all the verses connected together. I mean surah begins with talking about human communities being in difficulty and the quran is given so tat people are educated thereby and organised in a way that they help themselves out of difficulty through their own hard work and story of moosa and his people is brought in to explain how it was done before through mission that was given to moosa for israelites and egyptians. How message was made to reach through open and close communities. If we use explanatory translations then such use of words is not against rule of translation. If you are not aware please study various translations by various translators. TARJAME KA KAAM PEGHAAM KI TARJUMAANI KARNA HAI NA KE LAFZUN KI JO NAMUMKIN HAI ie you can only express the message as you understand it and you can never express meanings of words because meanings of words in one language are not exactly the same as in the other language. Even sentence structure is very different. For example, in english if we say, he is reading a book. We have subject, auxiliary verb, main verb, indefinite article and the object. In URDU we have woh aik kitaab pad raha hai, we have subject, indefinite article, object, main verb and auxiliary verb. here subject=faail is indicated by isme zameer which is third person pronoun in singular form. The object=MAFOOL is a common noun in singular form. The main verb indicates continuous tense form. So even if we put together words in wrong order we will have difficulty never mind trying to figure out which meaning of a word we should select from the available variety. The general idea of translation is ok for ordinary use where conveying the message in a conceptual or contextual or ideological way is not that important, however the the quran is only important because of its message. So if you lose the sense of message then what are you left with? This is why it is good idea to translate the quran this way because it gives the reader the idea what you mean to convey as your understanding of the message. Otherwise you fail to convey anything useful at all ie any other way you do not transfer message of the quran because you do not know which meaning of word to choose nor what you make of it. So the end result is just confusion. If in doubt please translate verses 10-16 of surah 20. What is meaning of each of these words used in there and what concepts the quran is trying to indicate to us by use of these words?

It is these like confusions that have given rise to so many misunderstandings that we have ended up so divided about each and everything. However if others do not consider this idea useful that is up to them.

Hope this explains my position. regards and all the best.

I will answer about Shan-Nazool when get some time for a work that i need to do for this.

anyway.

Oh dear Oh dear.
Please keep difference between Translation and Tafseer

فَإِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ السِّرَّ وَأَخْفَى

where is the word communities in it?? Do you know what Translation means? Tafseer bil Quran is ok but Tafseer did not means that you altogether neglect the Translation of the Ayath and make it something different.

it is like

He like fast food.

and you TRANSLATE it as

He like to eat food while travaling very fast.

Rule of tranlation/Tafseer
1) Translation sould be as close as it could be to the orignal text
2) Tafseer should be as close as it could be the orignal Text/translation.

Now tell me

فَإِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ السِّرَّ وَأَخْفَى

Where did you find word Communities? in the given text?
you are violating basic rule of the translation.

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Dear brother
Hope this explains my position. regards and all the best.

The way you are translating the Quran remind me of a joke

A man r who can not talk that worker steel a large amount from a Landlord and hide it some where Landlord capture that man and hire a lawyer who could understand the language of signs.

He put the Gun on the head of the dumb guy and said to the laywer ask him where is the money.

Lawyer said to the dumb guy tell me where is the money or else he will shoot

Dumb guy said i hide in my car that is in the jungel.

Lawyre translate it as He is saying Go ahead shoot me if you have guts you coward..




__________________________________________

So please do not turn Quran into joke by translating the quran that is totaly different then the original text

 

[iceburg]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

I have given you so many points bhai
and


(62. Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians (Sabi'in), whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.)


under the light of 5:12-13, 2:89 and 7:157-158

it is clear that in 2:62,7:159 main wo log he a sakty

1) Jo Hazoor SW sy pahly thy
2) Jin tak Hazoor Ka pagham nai pohancha
3) yaan wo log jo Curse wali clear Ayat sy pahly tak apny orignal deen par kaim thy

warna 5:12-13, 2:89 and 7:157-158 ki koi waja nai banti.

and please

2:89 ko parho phir sy please
(89. And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them (the Tawrah) and the Injil (Gospel), although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for the coming of Muhammad ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the curse of Allah be on the disbelievers.)

Kaya is Ayath ki roo sy Quran ko na man ny waly bhi under curse nahi hain?

agar ap kaho k 2:62 waloon ny Quran ka inkar nai kia. Iska koi logical answer hona chahye. Hazoor SW ko na man kar kaya wo Quran sy inkari honay k murtakib nahi hoay?

7:157 kahti ky injeel aur tawarh bi Hazoor pata batati hain .Kaya Hazoor SW ko na man kar unhain nabi na man kar kaya wo Injeel Tawarah and Quran k inkari nahi hoay?

and Quran/Injeel/Tawarah k inkari ho kar kaya wo 2:89 k mutabik under Allah k curse main na hoay?

please think

Ok it is what you believe. But I don't believe it. 2:62/5:69/7:159/2:112 are all in present tense and don't impose conditions which are dear to you.

You believe in Quran conditionally ... conditions come from your self logic.

You will not believe Quran unconditionally. And I don't care.

Regards!

 

[Mughal1]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

I will answer about Shan-Nazool when get some time for a work that i need to do for this.

anyway.

Oh dear Oh dear.
Please keep difference between Translation and Tafseer

فَإِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ السِّرَّ وَأَخْفَى

where is the word communities in it?? Do you know what Translation means? Tafseer bil Quran is ok but Tafseer did not means that you altogether neglect the Translation of the Ayath and make it something different.

it is like

He like fast food.

and you TRANSLATE it as

He like to eat food while travaling very fast.

Rule of tranlation/Tafseer
1) Translation sould be as close as it could be to the orignal text
2) Tafseer should be as close as it could be the orignal Text/translation.

Now tell me

فَإِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ السِّرَّ وَأَخْفَى

Where did you find word Communities? in the given text?
you are violating basic rule of the translation.

Ok I will wait for you explanation of surah 20 and see how you make sense of it. To me getting sense of the message in the original text is the point after reading the translation and that means not interpreting the quran according to make beliefs ie keep it evidence based or real. If you think your way is better please carry on by all means and if I liked it I too will adopt it. Hope I do not need another 30 volumes of tafseer to go with it. Good luck and all the best.

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Ok it is what you believe. But I don't believe it. 2:62/5:69/7:159/2:112 are all in present tense and don't impose conditions which are dear to you.

You believe in Quran conditionally ... conditions come from your self logic.

You will not believe Quran unconditionally. And I don't care.

Regards!

Self logic are you serious

5:13 is my self logic

2:89 is my self logic???


AGAIN

and please

2:89 ko parho phir sy please
(89. And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them (the Tawrah) and the Injil (Gospel), although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for the coming of Muhammad ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the curse of Allah be on the disbelievers.)

Kaya is Ayath ki roo sy Quran ko na man ny waly bhi under curse nahi hain?

agar ap kaho k 2:62 waloon ny Quran ka inkar nai kia. Iska koi logical answer hona chahye. Hazoor SW ko na man kar kaya wo Quran sy inkari honay k murtakib nahi hoay?

7:157 kahti ky injeel aur tawarh bi Hazoor pata batati hain .Kaya Hazoor SW ko na man kar unhain nabi na man kar kaya wo Injeel Tawarah and Quran k inkari nahi hoay?

and Quran/Injeel/Tawarah k inkari ho kar kaya wo 2:89 k mutabik under Allah k curse main na hoay?

please think and answer

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Ok I will wait for you explanation of surah 20 and see how you make sense of it. To me getting sense of the message in the original text is the point after reading the translation and that means not interpreting the quran according to make beliefs ie keep it evidence based or real. If you think your way is better please carry on by all means and if I liked it I too will adopt it. Hope I do not need another 30 volumes of tafseer to go with it. Good luck and all the best.

You did not answer my question in the post


Rule of tranlation/Tafseer
1) Translation sould be as close as it could be to the orignal text
2) Tafseer should be as close as it could be the orignal Text/translation.

Now tell me

فَإِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ السِّرَّ وَأَخْفَى

Where did you find word Communities? in the given text?
you are violating basic rule of the translation.



Note: Just to make sense (as per your logic and thinking turning the whole thing something different is not comes under Translation.


We are not talking aboout explanaiton/Tafseer at this time we are talking about Translation.

I will surely post translation but please you answer the question

 

[iceburg]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Self logic are you serious

5:13 is my self logic

2:89 is my self logic???


AGAIN

and please

2:89 ko parho phir sy please
(89. And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them (the Tawrah) and the Injil (Gospel), although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for the coming of Muhammad ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the curse of Allah be on the disbelievers.)

Kaya is Ayath ki roo sy Quran ko na man ny waly bhi under curse nahi hain?

agar ap kaho k 2:62 waloon ny Quran ka inkar nai kia. Iska koi logical answer hona chahye. Hazoor SW ko na man kar kaya wo Quran sy inkari honay k murtakib nahi hoay?

7:157 kahti ky injeel aur tawarh bi Hazoor pata batati hain .Kaya Hazoor SW ko na man kar unhain nabi na man kar kaya wo Injeel Tawarah and Quran k inkari nahi hoay?

and Quran/Injeel/Tawarah k inkari ho kar kaya wo 2:89 k mutabik under Allah k curse main na hoay?

please think and answer

aisa karna jab bhi 2:62 k alfaz badal k doosre alfaz parha karo gy (as you believe) phir pehle 2:59 ko bhi ghor se parh liya karna.

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]تو جو ظالم تھے، انہوں نے اس لفظ کو، جس کا ان کو حکم دیا تھا، بدل کر اس کی جگہ اور لفظ کہنا شروع کیا، پس ہم نے (ان) ظالموں پر آسمان سے عذاب نازل کیا، کیونکہ نافرمانیاں کئے جاتے تھے (۵۹)

[/FONT]​

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]I am not interested now in your baseless arguments. Jin verses ko bar bar tum quote karte ho wo sab main explain kar chukka hoon. Without changing any word of them. Without changing meaning of any word.

Lakin tum 2:62 ko words change kiye baghair explain nahi kar sakte.

Aik dafa phir 2:59 ko copy kar raha hoon...
[/FONT]​

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]
تو جو ظالم تھے، انہوں نے اس لفظ کو، جس کا ان کو حکم دیا تھا، بدل کر اس کی جگہ اور لفظ کہنا شروع کیا، پس ہم نے (ان) ظالموں پر آسمان سے عذاب نازل کیا، کیونکہ نافرمانیاں کئے جاتے تھے (۵۹)

[/FONT]​

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]Enough is enough ... so now it is better to stop it.

Khuram
http://khuram.wordpress.com [/FONT]​

 

[Raaz]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

:lol: پرویز صاحب ہد ہد والے

یہ وہ لوگ ہیں جن کا دماغ انگریز نے ایسا خراب کیا کہ انہوں نے اپنا قرآن بدل دیا اپنا دین بدل دیا

نام یہ شخص اقبال کا لیتا ہے ، کیا اقبال نے دین کو بدلا یا قرآن کے مطالب کو ؟؟

یہ پرویز اور غلام احمد قادیانی تقریباًایک ہی قسم کی پاگل چیز ہیں

یہ لوگ صرف قرآن پاک کے تشبیہات کو غلط مطلب میں پیش کر کے اپنے آپ کو عالم سمجھتے ہیں

خدا کی لعنت ہو ایسے عالموں پر​

 

[Unicorn]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

:lol: پرویز صاحب ہد ہد والے

یہ وہ لوگ ہیں جن کا دماغ انگریز نے ایسا خراب کیا کہ انہوں نے اپنا قرآن بدل دیا اپنا دین بدل دیا

نام یہ شخص اقبال کا لیتا ہے ، کیا اقبال نے دین کو بدلا یا قرآن کے مطالب کو ؟؟

یہ پرویز اور غلام احمد قادیانی تقریباًایک ہی قسم کی پاگل چیز ہیں

یہ لوگ صرف قرآن پاک کے تشبیہات کو غلط مطلب میں پیش کر کے اپنے آپ کو عالم سمجھتے ہیں

خدا کی لعنت ہو ایسے عالموں پر​

@Raaz I am promoting my thread be sure to watch it

My Thousand Mile Journey Through Rural America and Canada

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...Mile-Journey-Through-Rural-America-and-Canada​

 

[Mughal1]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

You did not answer my question in the post


Rule of tranlation/Tafseer
1) Translation sould be as close as it could be to the orignal text
2) Tafseer should be as close as it could be the orignal Text/translation.

Now tell me

????????? ???????? ???????? ?????????

Where did you find word Communities? in the given text?
you are violating basic rule of the translation.



Note: Just to make sense (as per your logic and thinking turning the whole thing something different is not comes under Translation.


We are not talking aboout explanaiton/Tafseer at this time we are talking about Translation.

I will surely post translation but please you answer the question

I have not violated any rule dear brother Abdullah but if you insist then I would like you to prove what you say. Not only that but you will also need to prove how you are going to prove me wrong on my explanation of the rule for translation. Once you put down the criterion then remember you will have to abide by that yourself as well as prove the translations of your choice correct as per rule laid down by yourself.

I hope you know what you are talking about but even if you do not hopefully we will get there in the end if you are willing to learn the hard way ie by working for it.

If you can produce translation of the message without additional words in your word for word translation then I will accept that you are right. So please get on with it, the sooner the better.

I do not accept that words in brackets are a good idea because that simply means you are correcting the mistakes of Allah by telling us Allah should have put this and this and that word in there. You are better studying islam in a bit more detail because these days islam and muslims are under heavy attack and most of these attacks involve material provided by our own mullahs. People these days travel the world and interact a lot more than every before and if you do not have any concept worth defending then you cannot defend it. This is why instead of supporting our senseless mullahs we need to support those scholars of islam who talk sense about islam and muslims. We need to give up make beliefs and adopt ideas worth keeping therefore worth defending. So I hope you take my advice seriously.

God bless you with all the best.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmsL0p6jnI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ6XmZsMZZI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKKNJ9tjo4Q&feature=related

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

aisa karna jab bhi 2:62 k alfaz badal k doosre alfaz parha karo gy (as you believe) phir pehle 2:59 ko bhi ghor se parh liya karna.

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]تو جو ظالم تھے، انہوں نے اس لفظ کو، جس کا ان کو حکم دیا تھا، بدل کر اس کی جگہ اور لفظ کہنا شروع کیا، پس ہم نے (ان) ظالموں پر آسمان سے عذاب نازل کیا، کیونکہ نافرمانیاں کئے جاتے تھے (۵۹)

[/FONT]​

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]I am not interested now in your baseless arguments. Jin verses ko bar bar tum quote karte ho wo sab main explain kar chukka hoon. Without changing any word of them. Without changing meaning of any word.

Lakin tum 2:62 ko words change kiye baghair explain nahi kar sakte.

Aik dafa phir 2:59 ko copy kar raha hoon...
[/FONT]​

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]
تو جو ظالم تھے، انہوں نے اس لفظ کو، جس کا ان کو حکم دیا تھا، بدل کر اس کی جگہ اور لفظ کہنا شروع کیا، پس ہم نے (ان) ظالموں پر آسمان سے عذاب نازل کیا، کیونکہ نافرمانیاں کئے جاتے تھے (۵۹)

[/FONT]​

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]Enough is enough ... so now it is better to stop it.

Khuram
http://khuram.wordpress.com [/FONT]​

You do not have answer to this
AGAIN

and please

2:89 ko parho phir sy please
(89. And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them (the Tawrah) and the Injil (Gospel), although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for the coming of Muhammad ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the curse of Allah be on the disbelievers.)

Kaya is Ayath ki roo sy Quran ko na man ny waly bhi under curse nahi hain?

agar ap kaho k 2:62 waloon ny Quran ka inkar nai kia. Iska koi logical answer hona chahye. Hazoor SW ko na man kar kaya wo Quran sy inkari honay k murtakib nahi hoay?

7:157 kahti ky injeel aur tawarh bi Hazoor pata batati hain .Kaya Hazoor SW ko na man kar unhain nabi na man kar kaya wo Injeel Tawarah and Quran k inkari nahi hoay?

and Quran/Injeel/Tawarah k inkari ho kar kaya wo 2:89 k mutabik under Allah k curse main na hoay?

please think and answer


And i did not CHANGE any word. 5:13 explain 2:62 bcz if we take your stance on correct on 2:62 then it makes 5:13 as useless and false.

any how Think and answer on 2:89 along with 157 of 7

1) Allah said those who do not believe on Book of Allah are under curse
2) They did not believe on Quran/Injeel/Tawara all books of Allah and yet you are saying nai nai they are free of grief etc...

 

[iceburg]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

You do not have answer to this
AGAIN

and please

2:89 ko parho phir sy please
(89. And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them (the Tawrah) and the Injil (Gospel), although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for the coming of Muhammad ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the curse of Allah be on the disbelievers.)

Kaya is Ayath ki roo sy Quran ko na man ny waly bhi under curse nahi hain?

agar ap kaho k 2:62 waloon ny Quran ka inkar nai kia. Iska koi logical answer hona chahye. Hazoor SW ko na man kar kaya wo Quran sy inkari honay k murtakib nahi hoay?

7:157 kahti ky injeel aur tawarh bi Hazoor pata batati hain .Kaya Hazoor SW ko na man kar unhain nabi na man kar kaya wo Injeel Tawarah and Quran k inkari nahi hoay?

and Quran/Injeel/Tawarah k inkari ho kar kaya wo 2:89 k mutabik under Allah k curse main na hoay?

please think and answer


And i did not CHANGE any word. 5:13 explain 2:62 bcz if we take your stance on correct on 2:62 then it makes 5:13 as useless and false.

any how Think and answer on 2:89 along with 157 of 7

1) Allah said those who do not believe on Book of Allah are under curse
2) They did not believe on Quran/Injeel/Tawara all books of Allah and yet you are saying nai nai they are free of grief etc...

I have answers but I have no intention to continue this pointless debate. Khush raho ... Jao khud ko winner he samajh lo. meri jaan chorro

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

I have not violated any rule dear brother Abdullah but if you insist then I would like you to prove what you say. Not only that but you will also need to prove how you are going to prove me wrong on my explanation of the rule for translation. Once you put down the criterion then remember you will have to abide by that yourself as well as prove the translations of your choice correct as per rule laid down by yourself.

I hope you know what you are talking about but even if you do not hopefully we will get there in the end if you are willing to learn the hard way ie by working for it.

If you can produce translation of the message without additional words in your word for word translation then I will accept that you are right. So please get on with it, the sooner the better.

I do not accept that words in brackets are a good idea because that simply means you are correcting the mistakes of Allah by telling us Allah should have put this and this and that word in there. You are better studying islam in a bit more detail because these days islam and muslims are under heavy attack and most of these attacks involve material provided by our own mullahs. People these days travel the world and interact a lot more than every before and if you do not have any concept worth defending then you cannot defend it. This is why instead of supporting our senseless mullahs we need to support those scholars of islam who talk sense about islam and muslims. We need to give up make beliefs and adopt ideas worth keeping therefore worth defending. So I hope you take my advice seriously.

God bless you with all the best.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmsL0p6jnI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ6XmZsMZZI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKKNJ9tjo4Q&feature=related

as far as your saying that you are not violating any thing

please read about these concepts of translations
[h=2]Fidelity
transparency[/h]
AND AND
concept of BACK TRANSLATION and why it is used


any way you do not know why brakets are used in any language and you term it as (correcting the mistakes of Allah)??? then what can one say about your whole believes about translation etc..
most of the time it is used to remove language barriers and if you do not know that then it looks bad that you are talking about translation.

By the way you are against adding brackets and you your self CHANGE THE COMPLETE TEXT of Quran in your translation of Sura Taha

فَإِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ السِّرَّ وَأَخْفَى
Which word is translated as communities you are yet to answer this. and in the light of your answer judge your words about () and think who is saying that(Allah should have put this and this and that)


By the way
in past Muslim research on the basis of Quran and done great job
but now people like GAP change Quran according to the research and look what we have these days

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

I have answers but I have no intention to continue this pointless debate. Khush raho ... Jao khud ko winner he samajh lo. meri jaan chorro

I am not here to win(but you seems to)

as you keep chagning your interpration with passage of time as every time i answer your one logic you change your logic you do not even hesitate to say that Quran can have FEW contradiction so you thin that Quran have FEW contradiction.

any way

What answer??

that 2:62 waly wo hain jinhoon ny Quran k inkar nai kia??

Kaya ya answer hy Apka? kaya is answer main mojood itna bara jhool ap ko nazar nai ata k wo Hazoor SW ko na man kar Quran ka inkar karchukay balkay Injeel aur Tawarh ko bhi neglect kar chukay

 

[iceburg]

Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

I am not here to win(but you seems to)

as you keep chagning your interpration with passage of time as every time i answer your one logic you change your logic you do not even hesitate to say that Quran can have FEW contradiction so you thin that Quran have FEW contradiction.

any way

What answer??

that 2:62 waly wo hain jinhoon ny Quran k inkar nai kia??

Kaya ya answer hy Apka? kaya is answer main mojood itna bara jhool ap ko nazar nai ata k wo Hazoor SW ko na man kar Quran ka inkar karchukay balkay Injeel aur Tawarh ko bhi neglect kar chukay

No Comments. Take care