Allama Ghulam Ahmad Parwez's threads collections

iceburg

Banned
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Keep changing interprations.

Any way.


Is Ayat main Hazoor SW ko Darguzar karny ka hukam Chand Logoon k liye nahi hy Balkay UN SAB k LIYE hay. Darguzar k humkam [FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]مگر تھوڑے ان میں[/FONT]

k liye nahi balkhy [FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]انہیں[/FONT] k liye hay aur yaahaan [FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]انہیں [/FONT]par sy murad Wo sub hain yahi main ap ko samjha raha hoon k khayanat karny waloon sy darguzar k hukam hy.

Ap ko ya baat is tarahhan sy samjh a sakti agar ap is baat ka jawaab socho honest ho kar.

k agar Sir [FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]مگر تھوڑے ان میں[/FONT] sy Darguzar k hukam hy tu phir baki logoon sy Hazoor SW Darguzar na karain?? unk sath Hazoor SW kaya salook karain??

It is clear in THIS ayat k Allah ny kaha k wada torny walaoon par curse hy Allah ka. exception wada torny par nahi hy


Don't make deceptions. darguzar siraf chand logon ko he karna hai.

Lakin I will be more happy agar saare gunahgaron ko bhi dar guzar karna hai. meri apni bhalai k chance bhi ban jaein gy. So aap k moon main ghee shakkar.

Regards!
 

TruPakistani

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

jis baat ka rona har post main aap aaj ro rehe ho woh mullahs ki manghadat definition of taqdeer hai. It is very nicely explained by parwez sb in his quranic lectures.

http://archive.org/details/DarseQuranSuraAlMaaidah04Ayah87To90ByGhulamAhmedParwez

http://archive.org/details/DarseQuranSuraAlMaaidah04Ayah103To105ByGhulamAhmedParwez

43 surah az Zukhruf Ayah 19 To 25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2UwgZHHJC4&feature==related

43 Surah az Zukhruf Ayah 26 To 32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Ka0TzOU8E&feature=related

43 Surah az Zukhruf Ayah 33 To 56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KVpfHxtlro&feature=related



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Abdul Allah

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Don't make deceptions. darguzar siraf chand logon ko he karna hai.

Lakin I will be more happy agar saare gunahgaron ko bhi dar guzar karna hai. meri apni bhalai k chance bhi ban jaein gy. So aap k moon main ghee shakkar.

Regards!


It is not deceptions

ok

Answer the question


Agar sirf Chand logoon ko Darguzar karna ka kaha tha Raool Allah SW ko tu baki k sath kaya karna tha Hazoor SW ko if not Darguzar?
 

TruPakistani

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Lets see what pervez thinks about ختم نبوّت

ghulam.gif


download the book from here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zhpvvkdfmcgtas3
 

iceburg

Banned
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

It is not deceptions

ok

Answer the question


Agar sirf Chand logoon ko Darguzar karna ka kaha tha Raool Allah SW ko tu baki k sath kaya karna tha Hazoor SW ko if not Darguzar?

Actually I am happy with your recent interpretation. Aur jis ko darguzar nahi karna hai ... os k sath kya karna hai ... this is not our topic.
 

Abdul Allah

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Actually I am happy with your recent interpretation. Aur jis ko darguzar nahi karna hai ... os k sath kya karna hai ... this is not our topic.


It is not MY RECENT interpretatation i am saying it from start that Allah said that Rasool SW should not do any thing with them BUT Allah have said CLEARLY that those who breach convent are under curse of Allah.




So you are accepting that Durguzar sub k sath karny ko kaha??
 

iceburg

Banned
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

It is not MY RECENT interpretatation i am saying it from start that Allah said that Rasool SW should not do any thing with them BUT Allah have said CLEARLY that those who breach convent are under curse of Allah.




So you are accepting that Durguzar sub k sath karny ko kaha??

Allah said that Rasool SW should not do any thing with them
why should not do anything...??? On ko forgive karna hai ... on se dar guzar karna hai....

Agar sab se karna hai then it is welcome. That is ideal.

agar koi kitna bhi under curse ho... Jab Prophet (PBUH) ne forgive kar diya ... phir curse bhi vanish ho he jaye ga.... Allah ki rehmat bhi Rasool (PBUH) ki rehmet se kam nahi ho sakti.

Regards!
 

Abdul Allah

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims


why should not do anything...??? On ko forgive karna hai ... on se dar guzar karna hai....

Agar sab se karna hai then it is welcome. That is ideal.

agar koi kitna bhi under curse ho... Jab Prophet (PBUH) ne forgive kar diya ... phir curse bhi vanish ho he jaye ga.... Allah ki rehmat bhi Rasool (PBUH) ki rehmet se kam nahi ho sakti.

Regards!


answer
So you are accepting that Durguzar sub k sath karny ko kaha??
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Lets see what pervez thinks about ختم نبوّت

ghulam.gif


download the book from here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zhpvvkdfmcgtas3

A very good book that vindicates stance of parwez sb. If you could realise mirza sb ke followers ke paas is ka koi jawaab nahin isi liye baar baar ummat ke khaamo khayaali par mabni baatun ke zariya jazbaaat ko un ke khilaaf ubhaarne ki koshish saaf zahir hai.

jo wahee eesa ki waalida par ki gayee, eesa ke hawariyun aur moosa ki maan ko ki gayee thi kia us ki nature aur tareeqa wahee tha jo eesa ko ki agyee thi? shehad ki makhi ko jo wahee ki jaati hai kia us ki noeeyat wohee hai jo wahee nabyun ko ki jati hai? lafze wahee ka istemaal to quran main mukhtalif maqaasid ke liye hua hai. har jaga yeh baat saaf saaf zahir hai.

jo wahee ambiyaa par ki jaati hai woh apni noaeeyat main munfarid hai. yeh hai parwez sb ka stance. isi liye jab risaalat khatam ho gayee to us noeeyat ki wahee bhi ikhitaam ko pohnch gayee.

behrhaal yeh aik alag behs hai aur mere paas itna waqt nahin hai keh main har baat par apni samajh ke mutabiq tafseel se guftagoo kar sakoon.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

All of your Long post and theory you present is answered By this Ayath

Sura 2

(219. They ask you (O Muhammad ) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefits for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit.'' And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: "That which is (spare) beyond your needs.'' Thus Allah makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought.)


do i need to explain it any more



any way i am waiting for the Translation of the verse i send (Translation not interprations)

Dear brother, please respond to my earlier post and we will get their because translating quran without understanding it purposefully is no use. I see no point in quoting verses of the quran when their meanings in their own context are not understood. That is why I invited you to let us translate the the whole surah and then see what meanings these verses have in their own proper context. When I receive your reply I will respond to your request. My purpose is not to argue over things aimlessly but to arrive at truth together. You therefore need to get out of mindset of trying to debate with me because I am not debating with you if you read my posts. My debate is very short because I debate foundations for a stance not details. Only if one proves one has a solid reasonable foundation that debate moves on to detail.

Before one could accept the quran divine one needs to show the basis for it and that is not possible unless one understands the quran first and the rules whereby one understands the quran to be divine become basis for the starting point of the debate for context and content of the quran. Any other interpretation outside this framework is just make belief and that is not here nor there. This is why we should work together and be prepared to learn from each other therefore you must be willing to teach me as well as learn from me. Although it is going to be a very a time consuming exercise but it is a good opportunity for us to sort out our differences and reach the truth. Both teacher and student must put effort in this exercise or it is not going to work.

So if you want translation of any verse of the quran you must be willing to interpret and translate it along with me because we each need to give our reasons for it as to why we are translating the verse the way we are and therefore the need for translating the whole surah each time. It is because if I give you my translation of a verse in one place you will try to see it through translation of rest of the quran that you are familiar with therefore my translation will look out of place for you just as yours will to me. It is like I have my jigsaw puzzle and you have yours and both are different in their foundation and detail, if you therefore will take a piece from my jigsaw puzzle and try to fit it in yours it will not fit and the same is true other way round. Your picture of islam is different from mine just like pictures of our jigsaw puzzles. we have the task of building the fullest possible pictures of our jigsaw puzzles and then let other decide which picture is more complete than the other. Try and understand this point so that you could realise what I am saying. This should explain to you very clearly indeed as to why fighting over random translation is futile and time wasting. If you read my replies to your post it is always me who is explaining things not you, ask yourself why is that the case?

Hope this helps you understand my point. regards and all the best.
 
Last edited:

Abdul Allah

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Dear brother, please respond to my earlier post and we will get their because translating quran without understanding it purposefully is no use. I see no point in quoting verses of the quran when their meanings in their own context are not understood. That is why I invited you to let us translate the the whole surah and then see what meanings these verses have in their own proper context. When I receive your reply I will respond to your request. My purpose is not to argue over things aimlessly but to arrive at truth together. You therefore need to get out of mindset of trying to debate with me because I am not debating with you if you read my posts. My debate is very short because I debate foundations for a stance not details. Only if one proves one has a solid reasonable foundation that debate moves on to detail.

Before one could accept the quran divine one needs to show the basis for it and that is not possible unless one understands the quran first and the rules whereby one understands the quran to be divine become basis for the starting point of the debate for context and content of the quran. Any other interpretation outside this framework is just make belief and that is not here nor there. This is why we should work together and be prepared to learn from each other therefore you must be willing to teach me as well as learn from me. Although it is going to be a very a time consuming exercise but it is a good opportunity for us to sort out our differences and reach the truth. Both teacher and student must put effort in this exercise or it is not going to work.

So if you want translation of any verse of the quran you must be willing to interpret and translate it along with me because we each need to give our reasons for it as to why we are translating the verse the way we are and therefore the need for translating the whole surah each time. It is because if I give you my translation of a verse in one place you will try to see it through translation of rest of the quran that you are familiar with therefore my translation will look out of place for you just as yours will to me. It is like I have my jigsaw puzzle and you have yours and both are different in their foundation and detail, if you therefore will take a piece from my jigsaw puzzle and try to fit it in yours it will not fit and the same is true other way round. Your picture of islam is different from mine just like pictures of our jigsaw puzzles. we have the task of building the fullest possible pictures of our jigsaw puzzles and then let other decide which picture is more complete than the other. Try and understand this point so that you could realise what I am saying. This should explain to you very clearly indeed as to why fighting over random translation is futile and time wasting. If you read my replies to your post it is always me who is explaining things not you, ask yourself why is that the case?

Hope this helps you understand my point. regards and all the best.

I hope this Ayath
Sura 2

(219. They ask you (O Muhammad ) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefits for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit.'' And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: "That which is (spare) beyond your needs.'' Thus Allah makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought.)

Have give you good material to think that Shan Nazool is not something that is alien or invented by Ajami people.


and ok so start with the Ayat i requested you to translate. So please translate it for me.

Let me resend it to you sura 20:17-18
﴿وَمَا تِلْكَ بِيَمِينِكَ يمُوسَى - قَالَ هِىَ عَصَاىَ أَتَوَكَّؤُا عَلَيْهَا وَأَهُشُّ بِهَا عَلَى غَنَمِى وَلِىَ فِيهَا مَأَرِبُ أُخْرَى ﴾
 

Abdul Allah

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Allah kare sab insaan he dar guzar ho jayen. Ameen


Answer please

Kaya is Ayat main ya hy k sub k sath durguzar kia jaye?


and Note: Ayat main Hazoor SW ko kaha gaya k wo durguzar karain. So HO JAYEN is not proper words(I wish the same but not in the light of this ayat)

any way

Answer please

Kaya is Ayat main ya hy k sub k sath durguzar kia jaye?
 
Last edited:

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

I hope this Ayath
Sura 2

(219. They ask you (O Muhammad ) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefits for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit.'' And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: "That which is (spare) beyond your needs.'' Thus Allah makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought.)

Have give you good material to think that Shan Nazool is not something that is alien or invented by Ajami people.


and ok so start with the Ayat i requested you to translate. So please translate it for me.

Let me resend it to you sura 20:17-18
﴿وَمَا تِلْكَ بِيَمِينِكَ يمُوسَى - قَالَ هِىَ عَصَاىَ أَتَوَكَّؤُا عَلَيْهَا وَأَهُشُّ بِهَا عَلَى غَنَمِى وَلِىَ فِيهَا مَأَرِبُ أُخْرَى ﴾

Dear brother, read my posts and respond accordingly because acting like a robot programmed by mullahs ordering people around does not work for anyone. From my posts you will see I do not get involved in silly contests of baseless arguments just for the fun of it. So I am with you if you have something useful to say otherwise this discussion is not going anywhere. So no point carrying on with it. You are free to have your opinion just as I am free to have mine though it would have been good to clarify things where possible with cooperation of each other but I cannot force others to cooperate. If you would have worked with me on this exercise we would have realised difficulties involved in the path of translation of the quran without which you cannot realise why translations you quote are wrong and convey the wrong message of the quran.

I have yet to see a good tafseer of the quran which is based upon rules of wisdom and takes each and every word of the quran to its extreme end in detail with arguments behind it and then explaining why one meaning is better than the other and therefore it should be chosen instead of all others available meanings. This involves knowledge of origin of language and its development throughout its life. This is necessary because that makes one realise how meanings of words are derived and how dictionaries came about and were developed and why the actual text of the quran is source of all meanings and concepts that based upon rules of wisdom. You will not see mullahs going beyond grammatical rules even though they are confused about that as well because they do not explain why grammatical rules are subordinate to language itself because all this is to do with archaeological finding and deciphering of the messages found that are in languages that are dead thousands of year back. It were not mullahs who came up with invented techniques but explorers and researchers in the field. So if people were able to revive dead languages then why should there be difficulty in understanding the quranic message without any make belief based translation or tafseer?

regardless I have said what I had to say so it is up to you to make use of it or carry on the way you have been, things will only make sense to you when you yourself put your own effort in to understanding the message and that stage comes in one's life in its own way and at its own time and for some it never comes because they live as they live so good luck to you and all the best.
 

iceburg

Banned
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Answer please

Kaya is Ayat main ya hy k sub k sath durguzar kia jaye?


and Note: Ayat main Hazoor SW ko kaha gaya k wo durguzar karain. So HO JAYEN is not proper words(I wish the same but not in the light of this ayat)

any way

Answer please

Kaya is Ayat main ya hy k sub k sath durguzar kia jaye?


Allah (in general) Bani-Israel main chand logon ko elehda treat karta hai. Allah is kind toward those few ppl. Examples are 2:62,5:69,7:159,5:13 ... along with follwing (2:83):

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]اور جب ہم نے بنی اسرائیل سے عہد لیا کہ الله کے سوا کسی کی عبادت نہ کرنا اور ماں باپ اور رشتہ داروں اور یتیموں اور محتاجوں سے اچھا سلوک کرنا اور لوگوں سے اچھی بات کہنا اور نماز قائم کرنا اور زکوةٰ دینا [/FONT][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]پھر سوائے چند آدمیوں کے [/FONT][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]تم میں سے سب منہ موڑ کر پھر گئے (۸۳)

[/FONT]
[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]Now see .... iss promise main Rasool pe eman ka zikar nahi. Ye basic promise hai. Jin logon ne iss basic promise ko break kiya ... wo yaqeenun Allah k ghazab main hain. Lakin there are few ppl who have honoured this promise. Ye wohi log hain jin ka zikar 2:62,5:69 aur 7:159 main hai.

Now come to 5:12-13 .... Yahan promise main rasalat ka iqrar bhi shamil hai... iss promise ko break karne plus khyanat karne ki saza "to be under curse" bata di gayi hai. Lakin yahan bhi "few ppl" ka zikar hai. Means k 2:83 wala basic promise meet karne wale agar 5:12 ka advanced promise meet na bhi kar sakain ... aur khayanat k murtakab bhi na hon ... phir wo aise fortunate log hain k 5:12 ka promise fully honor na karne k bawjood on ko Prophet (PBUH) muaf kar dein gy aur on se dar guzar karein gy.

Because wo minimum criteria ko meet kar rahe hain. Minimum criteria 2:83 k promise main bhi hai aur 2:62,5:69 aur 7:159 main bhi hai. Ye minimum criteria 2:112 main bhi hai in following words:


[/FONT]
[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]ہاں جس نے اپنا منہ الله کے سامنے جھکا دیا اور وہ نیکو کار بھی ہو تو اس کے لیے اس کا بدلہ اس کے رب کے ہاں ہے اور ان پر نہ کوئی خوف ہوگا اور نہ وہ غمگین ہوں گے (۱۱۲)


[/FONT]
 

Abdul Allah

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Allah (in general) Bani-Israel main chand logon ko elehda treat karta hai. Allah is kind toward those few ppl. Examples are 2:62,5:69,7:159,5:13 ... along with follwing (2:83):

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]اور جب ہم نے بنی اسرائیل سے عہد لیا کہ الله کے سوا کسی کی عبادت نہ کرنا اور ماں باپ اور رشتہ داروں اور یتیموں اور محتاجوں سے اچھا سلوک کرنا اور لوگوں سے اچھی بات کہنا اور نماز قائم کرنا اور زکوةٰ دینا [/FONT][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]پھر سوائے چند آدمیوں کے [/FONT][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]تم میں سے سب منہ موڑ کر پھر گئے (۸۳)

[/FONT]
[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]Now see .... iss promise main Rasool pe eman ka zikar nahi. Ye basic promise hai. Jin logon ne iss basic promise ko break kiya ... wo yaqeenun Allah k ghazab main hain. Lakin there are few ppl who have honoured this promise. Ye wohi log hain jin ka zikar 2:62,5:69 aur 7:159 main hai.

Now come to 5:12-13 .... Yahan promise main rasalat ka iqrar bhi shamil hai... iss promise ko break karne plus khyanat karne ki saza "to be under curse" bata di gayi hai. Lakin yahan bhi "few ppl" ka zikar hai. Means k 2:83 wala basic promise meet karne wale agar 5:12 ka advanced promise meet na bhi kar sakain ... aur khayanat k murtakab bhi na hon ... phir wo aise fortunate log hain k 5:12 ka promise fully honor na karne k bawjood on ko Prophet (PBUH) muaf kar dein gy aur on se dar guzar karein gy.

Because wo minimum criteria ko meet kar rahe hain. Minimum criteria 2:83 k promise main bhi hai aur 2:62,5:69 aur 7:159 main bhi hai. Ye minimum criteria 2:112 main bhi hai in following words:


[/FONT]
[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]ہاں جس نے اپنا منہ الله کے سامنے جھکا دیا اور وہ نیکو کار بھی ہو تو اس کے لیے اس کا بدلہ اس کے رب کے ہاں ہے اور ان پر نہ کوئی خوف ہوگا اور نہ وہ غمگین ہوں گے (۱۱۲)


[/FONT]



2:83 main past ka zikar hy for prove read next few ayat and again did it said that those who break promise are not cursed by Allah.??

Allah ka khuaf karoo kuch kauf-e-Khuda hy k nai Ap main

[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont] iss promise ko break karne [/FONT][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]plus[/FONT][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont] khyanat karne ki saza "to be under curse[/FONT]

Ya plus Kahaan sy A gaya?? READ AGAIN

So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard.

Kahaan hy Plus???

Khayanat k zikar baad main aik seprate hasiat sy hy. Aur us par Allah ny SUB k sath darguzr karny ko kaha na ki THOSE FEW ko.


Mean while read 2:89 as well

89. And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them (the Tawrah) and the Injil (Gospel), although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for the coming of Muhammad ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the curse of Allah be on the disbelievers.


Just to nulify the chance of baseless argument from you that They are bound only to those part of the Quran that confirm what is in their books.
Sura 7
(157. Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write whom they find written of with them in the Tawrah and the Injil, -- he commands them to do good; and forbids them from evil; he makes lawful for them the good things, and forbids them from the evil things, he releases them from their heavy burdens and from the fetters that were upon them. So those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful.)

So in 2:89 Allah is saying that those who disblieve at Quran are under curse. No exception what so ever. and if you (just for the sake of argument as it did not make any sense) say that they are bound to believe on Quran that confrims what is their books then 7:157 clearly tells that Prophet Muhammad SW was mention in the injil and tawarah so those who did not blieve on Him came under curse even as per 2:89


AND
Note:5:13 So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard.

Is clear verdict that you are not trying to look at. I dont know why
 
Last edited:

Abdul Allah

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

Dear brother, read my posts and respond accordingly because acting like a robot programmed by mullahs ordering people around does not work for anyone. From my posts you will see I do not get involved in silly contests of baseless arguments just for the fun of it. So I am with you if you have something useful to say otherwise this discussion is not going anywhere. So no point carrying on with it. You are free to have your opinion just as I am free to have mine though it would have been good to clarify things where possible with cooperation of each other but I cannot force others to cooperate. If you would have worked with me on this exercise we would have realised difficulties involved in the path of translation of the quran without which you cannot realise why translations you quote are wrong and convey the wrong message of the quran.

I have yet to see a good tafseer of the quran which is based upon rules of wisdom and takes each and every word of the quran to its extreme end in detail with arguments behind it and then explaining why one meaning is better than the other and therefore it should be chosen instead of all others available meanings. This involves knowledge of origin of language and its development throughout its life. This is necessary because that makes one realise how meanings of words are derived and how dictionaries came about and were developed and why the actual text of the quran is source of all meanings and concepts that based upon rules of wisdom. You will not see mullahs going beyond grammatical rules even though they are confused about that as well because they do not explain why grammatical rules are subordinate to language itself because all this is to do with archaeological finding and deciphering of the messages found that are in languages that are dead thousands of year back. It were not mullahs who came up with invented techniques but explorers and researchers in the field. So if people were able to revive dead languages then why should there be difficulty in understanding the quranic message without any make belief based translation or tafseer?

regardless I have said what I had to say so it is up to you to make use of it or carry on the way you have been, things will only make sense to you when you yourself put your own effort in to understanding the message and that stage comes in one's life in its own way and at its own time and for some it never comes because they live as they live so good luck to you and all the best.


First you admit please or explain why not you believe that

(219. They ask you (O Muhammad ) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefits for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit.'' And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: "That which is (spare) beyond your needs.'' Thus Allah makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought.)

Is a clear answer to your believe of Not accepting Shan-Nazool as a correct thing.

Secondly
I agree to your this post .

So why you are not helping me to understand

﴿وَمَا تِلْكَ بِيَمِينِكَ يمُوسَى - قَالَ هِىَ عَصَاىَ أَتَوَكَّؤُا عَلَيْهَا وَأَهُشُّ بِهَا عَلَى غَنَمِى وَلِىَ فِيهَا مَأَرِبُ أُخْرَى ﴾

you must be reading Quran right? and you must be not reading only arabic but some translation as well. So please tell me as per you what is the best TRANSLATION (not TAfseer) of this Ayat.

and please do not avoide it it is not something that you can not done.

 

iceburg

Banned
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

2:83 main past ka zikar hy for prove read next few ayat and again did it said that those who break promise are not cursed by Allah.??

Yes past ka he zikar hai. main ne kub kaha k present ka zikar hai...???



[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]
iss promise ko break karne
[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]plus[/FONT][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont] khyanat karne ki saza "to be under curse[/FONT]
Ya plus Kahaan sy A gaya?? READ AGAIN

So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard.

Kahaan hy Plus???

Plus wahin hai jahan plus ko dekh kar tum ne break laga di hai.
[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]پھر ان کی عہد شکنی کے باعث ہم نے اُن پر لعنت کی اوراُن کے دلوں کوسخت کر دیا [/FONT][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]وہ لوگ کلام کو ا سکے ٹھکانے سے بدلتے ہیں اور اس نصیحت سے نفع اٹھانا بھول گئے جو انہیں کی گئی تھی اور تو ہمشیہ ان کی کسی نہ کسی خیانت پر اطلاع پاتا رہے گا مگر تھوڑے ان میں سے [/FONT]

Khayanat ka zikar aik separate hassiyat main nahi hai ... jaisa k tumhari khawahish hai
Khayanat k zikar baad main aik seprate hasiat sy hy

Wohi log jin pe curse ki gayi hai ... onhi logon ki mazeed khasoosiyat aage bayan hui hai... onhi "mazeed khasoosiat" k liye I used "plus".



Mean while read 2:89 as well

89. And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them (the Tawrah) and the Injil (Gospel), although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for the coming of Muhammad ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the curse of Allah be on the disbelievers.

See Urdu Translation below:
[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]اور جب ان کے پاس اللہ کی طرف سے کتاب آئی جو تصدیق کرتی ہے اس کی جو ان کے پاس ہے اور اس سے پہلے وہ کفار پر فتح مانگا کرتے تھے پھر جب ان کے پاس وہ چیز آئی جسے انہوں نے پہچان لیا تو اس کا انکارکیاسوکافروں پر الله کی لعنت ہے (۸۹)

[/FONT]
[FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]Yes Kitaab Allah ka inkaar karne waale Jews/Christians wo nahi hain jin ka zikar 2:62,5:69 aur 7;159 main hai... 5;69,2:62 aur 7:159 wale Jews/Christians Haqooq Allah poore karte hain.


[/FONT]
Just to nulify the chance of baseless argument from you that They are bound only to those part of the Quran that confirm what is in their books.
Sura 7
(157. Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write whom they find written of with them in the Tawrah and the Injil, -- he commands them to do good; and forbids them from evil; he makes lawful for them the good things, and forbids them from the evil things, he releases them from their heavy burdens and from the fetters that were upon them. So those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful.)

Yahi tumhari dishonesty hai... aik dafa phir 7:157 ko quote kar diya aur phir 7;159 ko gol kar gaye.

And of Moses' folk there is a community who lead with truth and establish justice therewith. (7:159)

So in 2:89 Allah is saying that those who disblieve at Quran are under curse. No exception what so ever. and if you (just for the sake of argument as it did not make any sense) say that they are bound to believe on Quran that confrims what is their books then 7:157 clearly tells that Prophet Muhammad SW was mention in the injil and tawarah so those who did not blieve on Him came under curse even as per 2:89


AND
Note:5:13 So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard.

Is clear verdict that you are not trying to look at. I dont know why


You are only a dishonest person. I have explained my point of view quite sufficiently. Now onwords I will reply to only those points that will not smell your dishonesty. Like you know those few are exempt from curse but you are not accepting.
 
Last edited:

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: The main contributions of ghulam ahmed parwez to islam and muslims

First you admit please or explain why not you believe that

(219. They ask you (O Muhammad ) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefits for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit.'' And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: "That which is (spare) beyond your needs.'' Thus Allah makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought.)

Is a clear answer to your believe of Not accepting Shan-Nazool as a correct thing.

Secondly
I agree to your this post .

So why you are not helping me to understand

﴿وَمَا تِلْكَ بِيَمِينِكَ يمُوسَى - قَالَ هِىَ عَصَاىَ أَتَوَكَّؤُا عَلَيْهَا وَأَهُشُّ بِهَا عَلَى غَنَمِى وَلِىَ فِيهَا مَأَرِبُ أُخْرَى ﴾

you must be reading Quran right? and you must be not reading only arabic but some translation as well. So please tell me as per you what is the best TRANSLATION (not TAfseer) of this Ayat.

and please do not avoide it it is not something that you can not done.


Dear brother Abdullah, please listen to following darse quran by parwez sb, it explains what verses like these mean and why.

http://archive.org/details/DarseQuranSuraAlAraafAyah111To129ByGhulamAhmedParwez

Here is my translation of first 9 verses of the surah as it makes sense to me even though I asked you to translate them for me but you did not. However you can translate the following verses and then I will translate the verses you have asked me about.

I see from your responses that your problems is sticking to word for word conversion of the quranic text which seems wrong to me for the reason I have explained. To add to that if I follow your idea then I will have problem explaining verses which use a single word on its own or only a couple of words in verses and that way the message will not translate. This is why explanation must replace the word for word because objective is to convey message not just provide an alternative word for a word. As I already explained that no language necessarily has an equivalent word for all words used in the quran. This is why exact word for word translation is impossible altogether, so all so called exact translations are just trying to convey the message and they are not consistent because here and there they end up resorting to explanations. If you disagree then what you can do is point out any translation of your choice as exact according to you and then leave it to me to prove it you that it is but an exact translation of the actual text of the quran. All translator use MAFOOMI translations that simply try to convey the message as understood by the translators. My point is that it is better to have better explanatory translations particularly for nonmuslims because then they are less likely to raise so many objections if things are explained better the first time and the problem is also likely to reduce among muslims because so many questions arise in minds of people due to lacks in translations tat fail to convey consistency about any particular point of view.

Surah 20 AL-TAA HAA

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

[1] Tua Haa.

[2] We have not sent this Qur’an to you the people so that you continue suffering tyranny

[3] rather it is sent as plan of action for such people who are concerned about it

[4] sent by Him Who evolved this galaxy and the galaxies farthest away.

[5] The gracious Who presides over the thrown of this kingdom,

[6] to whom belongs whatever is in the galaxies far away and whatever is in this galaxy as well as all that lies in between them and all that the heavenly bodies are composed of.

[7] So if you express your mission clearly then He will make it known to the open as well as the closed communities.

[8] Such is Allah, none is God but He alone! To Him belong the names that manifest His goodness.

[9] So has the story of people of Moses reached you about His goodness?

My point is not that this is perfect translation but to me it seems ok unless you could point out any serious problem with it as well as offer a problem free translation yourself. If there are no perfect translations and we cannot come up wit any ourselves then we have to agree that explanation of the message is better way of conveying the quranic message than fighting over translations. If you look at verse 7 the textual construction is unique and cannot be conveyed through word for word translation. The sense conveyed by words in this verse cannot be conveyed in any language without adding explanation. So if we are forced by the quran in so many places to convey the sense then why restrict translation to word for word which does not serve the purpose? Not only that it is due to these translations we are fighting wit each other and nonmuslims are also thinking the fault sis actually in the quran that its message not understood even by muslims that is how they fail to convey it. This is why Allaama parwez does not follow this idea at all because it confuses more than it helps those who have thinking minds but do not know the language of the quran. This way we are driving people away from the message of the quran instead of bringing them closer to it.

Unless you realise what I realise I am afraid we are not going to agree just now may be it needs time for these points to sink in. It shows how Allaama parwez was far ahead of us in his thinking.

It is for the same reason I cannot translate any verses from anywhere because the context needs to be understood before one could give any sensible meanings to any words because translating the quran is a serious business. It is therefore not right for anyone to translation individual verses without trying to understand the full context of information involved. The story of moosa and bani isreal is spread all over the quran and that needs to be understood if we wish to say anything in this matter.

The problem of mullahs is different because they choose a verse that is already understood in a particular context according to their individual aqeedahs so they talk about it in that context but problem with thinkers is that they try to understand the actual message as it is without getting involved in arguments for proving any aqeedah. If you try to prove any aqeedah then you have lost the argument because the purpose of new look at the quran is to see the truth not what my aqeedah is and it is right because I have some quranic verses that say that. It is this very aqeedah thing that has stopped muslims ummah from developing. Our aim should be to realise the best explanations of the quran and then worry about our beliefs after having discovered the evidence rather then saying I am right and then to prove my point I collect verses and thereby end up proving the quran wrong.

This is why the first step is to set up the firm criterion then see if the quran measure ok with it and then if it does by all means tak up those beliefs as convictions. Doing things this way you cannot go wrong. It should not be our worry whether the quran is true or false our worry should be to see that we have fair criterion and we are fair in judging the quran for its truth. If then it proves to true then it is fine if it proves to be false then that too must be accepted the same way. People who come to quran through such understanding cannot be defeated by anyone though we are brought up to believe things otherwise and we can see the results for doing that. Each our generation has been getting worse than the one before it. So if we want to change all this for the better then we must accept to learn the quran the right way.

regards and all the best.
 

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