Moon Sighting- The So Called Calculation vs Actual Sighting Debate

[Raaz]

سورة يونس -4,5,6

﴾ هُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَ الشَّمْسَ ضِيَاءً وَالْقَمَرَ* نُورً*ا وَقَدَّرَ*هُ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعْلَمُوا عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ ۚ مَا خَلَقَ اللَّـهُ ذَٰلِكَ إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ ۚ يُفَصِّلُ الْآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ ﴿٥﴾ إِنَّ فِي اخْتِلَافِ اللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ* وَمَا خَلَقَ اللَّـهُ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْ*ضِ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَّقُونَ ﴿٦﴾


وہی ہے جس نے سُورج کو اجیالا بنایا اور چاند کو چمک دی اور چاند کے گھٹنے بڑھنے کی منزلیں ٹھیک ٹھیک مقرر کر دیں تاکہ

تم اُس سے برسوں اور تاریخوں کے حساب معلوم کرو اللہ نے یہ سب کچھ (کھیل کے طور پر نہیں بلکہ) با مقصد ہی بنایا ہے

وہ اپنی نشانیوں کو کھول کھول کر پیش کر رہا ہے اُن لوگوں کے لیے جو علم رکھتے ہیں (5) یقیناً رات اور دن کے الٹ پھیر

میں اور ہر اُس چیز میں جو اللہ نے زمین اور آسمانوں میں پیدا کی ہے، نشانیاں ہیں اُن لوگوں کے لیے جو (غلط بینی و غلط روی سے) بچنا چاہتے ہیں​

الله پاک نے حساب بھی بنایا ہے تو ان لوگوں کے لئے جو علم رکھتے ہیں
جاہل لوگ اسی طرح بحث کرتے رہتے ہیں​

 

[Unicorn]

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Whenever you sight the newmoon (of the month of Ramadan) observe fast. and when you sight it (the new moon of shawwal) break it, and if the sky is cloudy for you, then observe fast for thirty days. (Sahih Muslim; Book #006, Hadith #2378) source

Kuraib reported that Umm Fadl, daughter of Harith, sent him (Fadl, i. e. her son) to Mu'awiya in Syria. I (Fadl) arrived in Syria, and did the needful for her. It was there in Syria that the month of Ramadan commenced. I saw the new moon (of Ramadan) on Friday. I then came back to Medina at the end of the month. Abdullah b. 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) asked me (about the new moon of Ramadan) and said: When did you see it? I said.: We saw it on the night of Friday. He said: (Did) you see it yourself? -I said: Yes, and the people also saw it and they observed fast and Mu'awiya also observed fast, whereupon he said: But we saw it on Saturday night. So we would continue to observe fast till we complete thirty (lasts) or we see it (the new moon of shawwal). I said: Is the sightidg of the moon by Mu'awiya not valid for you? He said: No; this is how the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has commanded us. Yahya b. Yahya was in doubt (whether the word used in the narration by Kuraib) was Naktafi or Taktafi. (Sahih Muslim; Book #006, Hadith #2391)

Thanks bro, its so simple and straight forward fast for 30 days.

 

[talkingbird2009]

@talkingbird2009:

If you are saying that the position/orbit of the moon around the Earth is based on an aggregation of the previous data then you are actually mistaken. That is just not the case. The movement of 'heavenly bodies' (planetary motion) is determined by observance (yes, sighting determines the calculations!). For example, are you trying to suggest that the Gregorian calendar (viz based on the Earth's orbit around the Sun) is based on predictive calculations? While earlier civilizations kept a track of such previous movements (due to time not being divided as it is today and not knowing with certainly either the mass nor volume of the heavenly bodies), but today we have relatively more accurate data available.

The movement of the Earth around the Sun - and the movement of the moon around the Earth - is a fixed term. There are clear texts from both the Qur'an and Sunnah to support this. For example read the following verse of the Qur'an (and mind you Science agrees with this):

And the Sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. And We have decreed set phases for the Moon, until it ends up looking like an old palm spathe. It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Surah Ya Sin, 38-40)

Or consider the following hadith of Rasulullah (SAW) where he categorically states number of days it takes for the moon to orbit the Earth is either 29/30 days (fixed):

SAHIH MUSLIM
HADITH_No 2378
Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: Whenever you sight the new moon (of the month of Ramadan) observe fast, and when you sight it (the new moon of Shawwal) break it, and if the sky is cloudy for you, then observe fast for 30 days.

I will grant you that there is a DIFFERENCE between motion/position and visibility/sighting. It is for this reason that I belong to the camp where I say that new months should be based on the SIGHTING as opposed to calculations. Although calculations are accurate, but you rightly point out that its visibility cannot be determined by calculations alone.

For example, the new moon for Shawwal this year was born on the 6th of August, 2013, @ 20:50:42 Universal Time. This would mean that in KSA the time would have been 23:50:42. It is a matter of observable fact that the newly born crescent cannot be seen by the naked eye (or even with a visual aid for that matter) until at least 14 hours of its birth (it's just not physically possible!). So if people want to follow calculations then they are stuck with the following problems:

1- What would you do in the above case (which is actually what has happened last night) where the new moon is born so late in the night?
2- What would you do if the new crescent is born early morning or late afternoon UT?

So I am with you so far as the arguments go for calculation v/s sighting. However, the assertion that the moons orbit is based on predictions is just wrong. You are also comparing oranges to apples by drawing a parallel with rain patterns (which is based on predictive patterns, albeit there is much more complex calculation involved than just predictive patterns alone).

Finally, here is a mathematical formula for calculating the Moon's orbit (its sidereal orbit): http://www.bths.edu/ourpages/auto/2008/12/18/41272821/Calculating the Period _T_ of the Moon.pdf

If you read my previous posts i have clearly mentioned many times that it is the VISIBILITY OF MOON that needs to be addressed and there is no scientific Robust Model or Calculation to pinpoint to Visibility of Crescent.

 

[Aleph]

Yes, I noticed that and that is why I agree with you on that count.

However, the calculation camp actually doesn't take visibility into account at all. As such, from an Islamic Jurisprudence point of view, they are not wrong either. The word used in the Qur'an and Sunnah for "sighting" is ru'yah.

Ru'yah literally means "sighting", however, it can also mean "to calculate" or "to approximate" or even "to deduce". There is a literal meaning of "seeing" and an allegorical meaning of "estimating/calculating". So both interpretations are viable really. I still favor the physical sighting though.

If you read my previous posts i have clearly mentioned many times that it is the VISIBILITY OF MOON that needs to be addressed and there is no scientific Robust Model or Calculation to pinpoint to Visibility of Crescent.

 

[talkingbird2009]

Yes, I noticed that and that is why I agree with you on that count.

However, the calculation camp actually doesn't take visibility into account at all. As such, from an Islamic Jurisprudence point of view, they are not wrong either. The word used in the Qur'an and Sunnah for "sighting" is ru'yah.

Ru'yah literally means "sighting", however, it can also mean "to calculate" or "to approximate" or even "to deduce". There is a literal meaning of "seeing" and an allegorical meaning of "estimating/calculating". So both interpretations are viable really. I still favor the physical sighting though.

I fully understand your point and am on the same page. I was compelled to confront these half baked/educated brains who always claimed " Jee Ub to forumula agaya hay formula..." and when i challenged them to present me with the formula nobody was able to present it. Hamare desi log bhee soni sonaye baatein bas quote kertay rehtay hein without having the scientific background of it. How many of us know of the complexities of moon sighting? Non...but ratto totay kee tara matric pass bhee Mullah bashing keray ga to bole gaaa jee dekho gee formula agaya hay formula .... Anyways brother you reply was scholarly and good scientifically too. Thank you for your interest and time.

 

[sajjad.ahmad]

Mr. You are confused in many terms and you are mixing up many things. You need to clear you mind. If you think you are educated (Might be) you need to understand how to interpret a problem on mass level.

1. You started with E = m*C*C and F = ma; both are irrelevant in the context as the first is for the energy mass conversion and second one is the newtons second law of motion.
2. Motion of the moon and the earth are determine by the orbital velocity formula (which I don remember at this time). The composite analysis of the both movements make the calculation about the visibility of the moon on different parts of the Earth.
3. Visibility of the moon is not based on historic data but on the orbital velocity of the earth around sun and the moon around earth.
4. Met department is involved in the game to see how clear the sky will be.

I suggest DONT TRY misguide the public, if you are not sure about what you are talking about.

 

[talkingbird2009]

Mr. You are confused in many terms and you are mixing up many things. You need to clear you mind. If you think you are educated (Might be) you need to understand how to interpret a problem on mass level.

1. You started with E = m*C*C and F = ma; both are irrelevant in the context as the first is for the energy mass conversion and second one is the newtons second law of motion.
2. Motion of the moon and the earth are determine by the orbital velocity formula (which I don remember at this time). The composite analysis of the both movements make the calculation about the visibility of the moon on different parts of the Earth.
3. Visibility of the moon is not based on historic data but on the orbital velocity of the earth around sun and the moon around earth.
4. Met department is involved in the game to see how clear the sky will be.

I suggest DONT TRY misguide the public, if you are not sure about what you are talking about.

You must be a very thick skull person. The examples i gave were to build a case and to make people understand what a formula is and what is a forecast and yet again a person with low iq keeps on confusing visbility with motion , orbital velocity etc etc. Pardon my being blunt but this thread is not for you and your type. Please excuse this thread.

 

[Rommel]

The motions of the moon are a little too complicated to describe in a formula.
You need them done by a computer if you'd like precision.
The best web site is the US Naval Observatory, and this is the internet address:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/


The Calculation for Moon Sighting for Karachi is:

Moon
Location: E 6702'50.0", N2450'48.0", 0m
(Longitude referred to Greenwich meridian)

Time Zone: 5h 00m east of Greenwich

Date ........................... Rise Az. .....................Transit Alt. .............. Set Az.
(Zone)
......................................h . m . ......................h .m ... .................. h .m ....
2013 Aug 06 (Tue) .........05:25 74 ......................12:05 ..79S ................18:41 ...284
2013 Aug 07 (Wed) ........06:17 78 ......................12:50 ..75S ................19:18 ...280
2013 Aug 08 (Thu) .........07:10 82 ......................13:34 ..71S ................19:55 ...276
2013 Aug 09 (Fri) ...........08:02 87 ......................14:19 ..67S ................20:31 ...271
2013 Aug 10 (Sat) ..........08:56 92 ......................15:04 ..62S ................21:08 ...266

New Moon will born on Aug 6, but it will be visible on Aug 8.

 

[Lil'Genius]

Nice topic, I will like to debate this topic.

We as Muslim can work on Calendar for Islamic Months. Yes month start will depend on moon but that can be calculated. Let me elaborate in next post why I think this.

 

[talkingbird2009]

The motions of the moon are a little too complicated to describe in a formula.
You need them done by a computer if you'd like precision.
The best web site is the US Naval Observatory, and this is the internet address:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/

Thanks Rommel , i just input coordinates of karachi and these are the results : Please again note that it does not give the visibility of the moom but just moon rise and moonset and the new moon date. Visibility is still not defined.
Wednesday
7 August 2013 Universal Time + 5h

SUN
Begin civil twilight 05:37
Sunrise 06:02
Sun transit 12:36
Sunset 19:11
End civil twilight 19:35

MOON
Moonset 18:39 on preceding day
Moonrise 06:16
Moon transit 12:49
Moonset 19:17
Moonrise 07:09 on following day

New Moon on 8 August 2013 at 02:52 (Universal Time + 5h).

 

[Lil'Genius]

Surah Yaseen:

Translation (Ayat 37 - 40) :

And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are

in darkness.
And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.


اور ایک نشانی ان کے لئے رات ہے کہ اس میں سے ہم دن کو کھینچ لیتے ہیں تو اس وقت ان پر اندھیرا چھا جاتا ہے
اور سورج اپنے مقرر رستے پر چلتا رہتا ہے۔ یہ (خدائے) غالب اور دانا کا (مقرر کیا ہوا) اندازہ ہے
اور چاند کی بھی ہم نے منزلیں مقرر کردیں یہاں تک کہ (گھٹتے گھٹتے) کھجور کی پرانی شاخ کی طرح ہو جاتا ہے
نہ تو سورج ہی سے ہوسکتا ہے کہ چاند کو جا پکڑے اور نہ رات ہی دن سے پہلے آسکتی ہے۔ اور سب اپنے اپنے دائرے میں تیر رہے ہیں​

 

[Lil'Genius]

In prophet's (saww) era, Salat timmings were calculated using SUN and month start using MOON.

Question:
How many Molvi's go on the roof to see SUN positioning for Azaan ? None, because for a complete year calenders are made using calculations.

 

[Rommel]

Thanks Rommel , i just input coordinates of karachi and these are the results : Please again note that it does not give the visibility of the moom but just moon rise and moonset and the new moon date. Visibility is still not defined.
Wednesday
7 August 2013 Universal Time + 5h

SUN
Begin civil twilight 05:37
Sunrise 06:02
Sun transit 12:36
Sunset 19:11
End civil twilight 19:35

MOON
Moonset 18:39 on preceding day
Moonrise 06:16
Moon transit 12:49
Moonset 19:17
Moonrise 07:09 on following day

New Moon on 8 August 2013 at 02:52 (Universal Time + 5h).

I also used the coordinates of Karachi.

New Moon will be born on Aug 6 at 05:25 and will set at 18:41, so it will not be visible in Karachi.
On August 8 it will rise at 07:10 and will set at 19:55, so it will be visible for 40 mins after sunset,
and if the sky is not overcast, it will InshAllah be visible in Karachi.

 

[Lil'Genius]

Lets assume that physical moon sight is mandatory and we need committee for this purpose which verifies all claims of moon for authenticity. Second we all know that all Muslim countries have human made boundaries. If we assume that we become one Ummat and we remove boundaries and build one Muslim state.

Question:
Then how will we decide central place for Shahdat ? To make it simplify, if Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh combines to form one Muslim state. How will Ullema committee will decide one EID ?

 

[Rommel]

Lets assume that physical moon sight is mandatory and we need committee for this purpose which verifies all claims of moon for authenticity. Second we all know that all Muslim countries have human made boundaries. If we assume that we become one Ummat and we remove boundaries and build one Muslim state.

Question:
Then how will we decide central place for Shahdat ? To make it simplify, if Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh combines to form one Muslim state. How will Ullema committee will decide one EID ?

One Eid will not be possible all over the globe on visual moon sighting as moon sighting varies with co-ordinates on Earth.
There will have to be local Regional Committees to visually sight the moon and declare Eid.

 

[Lil'Genius]

One Eid will not be possible all over the globe on visual moon sighting as moon sighting varies with co-ordinates on Earth.
There will have to be local Regional Committees to visually sight the moon and declare Eid.

What about other question ? and how will you decide regions ?

 

[sajjad.ahmad]

You must be a very thick skull person. The examples i gave were to build a case and to make people understand what a formula is and what is a forecast and yet again a person with low iq keeps on confusing visbility with motion , orbital velocity etc etc. Pardon my being blunt but this thread is not for you and your type. Please excuse this thread.

You used to live in fools paradise.
I clearly said there is no forecasting involved there. You can stay happy by assuming an EINSTEIN inside you brain.
There is no cure for the people like you. If you have the idea and knowledge then you must not start this type of thread where the BASIC SCIENTIFIC Knowledge is key to understand. After your reply I am sure that you are just found of discussing science and infact you need to educate yourself.

 

[nvra911]

Islamic literature speaks of Sighting ( Visibility) of the moon and not the phase or position. This is an open discussion and different approaches to answering the riddle exist

Islam follows lunar calender and NOT sightings.

Sightings was the method used 1,500 years ago but today better scientific methods are followed to calculate the calender.

Why are you stuck in 7th century methods with such arrogance, is beyond me.

Like I said in my previous post, you're here to bicker and argue and not understand the point.

You want to 'see' the Moon each time and think that this is part of Islam. It is not. It is a part of your backwardness, which sadly is the proud feather in the hat of the Muslim world today.

 

[nvra911]

...I will grant you that there is a DIFFERENCE between motion/position and visibility/sighting. It is for this reason that I belong to the camp where I say that new months should be based on the SIGHTING as opposed to calculations. Although calculations are accurate, but you rightly point out that its visibility cannot be determined by calculations alone...

Dude, firstly :doh:.

What confusing arguments that you know something is accurate but you will not follow it.

It is this kind of 'literal-ness' the Muslim world has been dogged with for the last 800 years or so that there has been no single advancement of science from the Muslim world. Somehow, the Muslims world sees science as an enemy where it really is nothing but a tool.

1,500 years ago sightings was the only way to follow lunar calender. Islam follows lunar calender and there is no obligation for which methods to use. Common sense dictates that the most accurate methods of the times should be followed to arrive at a calender - and that's what the Muslim world is against. (Why? I am stumped myself).

I expected more from you. Some how you've made it a part of your faith that practicing 7th century methods for Moon sightings makes a good Muslim, because that's the only reason you'd be sticking to it right? I thought a man of 21st century and especially one educated like yourself would have a better analytic ability. I really did man.

 

[hunter123]

You are right and that ascertain the fact that the current knowledge is not robust and concrete about the sighting of moon. The scientific calculation /forecasting etc etc has many unknowns at the moment. When would the new moon be visible to the human eye and to what extent...from where to where on the time line , this is another question. Good debate and i thank you for your input.

You misunderstand me. Current knowledge is good enough. The Earth is round. That means that when the Moon is very close to the horizon (or it is cloudy) it is very hard to see with the naked eye, so before we had scientific instruments we used to take the next day's Moon and call it the 1st of the new month.

That is why I say that our "Ulema" will find a way to fight about it. In my humble opinion, we should agree on a standard for "visibility" based on moon position instead of some human's eyes. (e.g. when the position of the moon is 5 degrees above the horizon at any "time line", the new month starts). The current scientific knowledge can be used to extremely reliably predict the position of the moon relative to any point (or "time line") on Earth.

You have reverted to your first argument that the Moon must be visible to the human eye for the "visibility". I have done my best to show why "visibility" itself is a very vague and inefficient way for Moon sighting and will keep causing differences between Muslims.

The scientific test is to predict a moon rise on some location using the math and then test the date/time on a clear day with "human eye" or binoculars. It has already been done with the Sun (which is the reason you don't get up and look at the horizon to see what time to pray. You look at the watch.) It is very simple to predict what people living on any "timeline" will see when they look up. Not only for the Moon but also the whole universe (including planets Jupiter, Mercury, Neptune etc. as well as Sun and Moon eclipses). Moon is not something special. It is just being used as a way to keep time like the Sun.

If we refuse to use technology, we will fall behind and then disappear. It is due to this baseless confusion that we still do not have have a watch that shows the date according to the Islamic calendar. If we keep relying on "visibility" (non-scientific and non falsifiable) instead of position (provable and falsifiable) there will never be such a watch.


And Allah knows best.