Muslims are not Bound by Constitutions Nation States are: A Candid Interaction with Student, A Worth

[Scholar1]

Very well said, nice share

 

[Talwar Gujjar]

Did not listen to the video but the title line is a stupid assertion. As a Muslim you are definitely bound by the contracts, agreements, promises or undertakings, verbal or written, you make, individually or collectively, until such time as such undertakings become null and void or you openly renounce them. In the latter case, if you renounce a contract, you will then become an enemy and will be treated like one.

Quran 17:34 "You shall fulfill your pledges; surely you shall be held accountable for your pledges".

 

[fawad ali]

Have U even listened to this lecture? If so, support your views. Moreover, I think U would have made much better comment.

A state cannot differentiate between its citizens on basis of religion. If it does, it will be descrimination. I do not accept this logic of religious state. I have seen his arguments before and all i have seen is that he wants another world war which will end human race.

 

[Wadaich]

And you do realize that the majority of human beings living on Planet Earth are non-muslims? right?

Oh Yes! I do. That is what a Muslim is directed by the Creater :subhanahu: to be a model for the non-muslims to convince them follow Islam for a peaceful world.

The Hell Dogs (TTP/ISIS/DAESH) are the creation of CIA/MOSAD/RAW to deface Islam. These hellish monsters has nothing to do with Islam. The Last Prophet pbuh has declared them Dogs from Hell and has identified them with their crowning traits........all the aforementioned outfits confirm to those traits.

 

[Wadaich]

Shutup... You are a well known Cows drink drinker

Probably........he is a Hell Dog.

 

[Wadaich]

A state cannot differentiate between its citizens on basis of religion. If it does, it will be descrimination. I do not accept this logic of religious state. I have seen his arguments before and all i have seen is that he wants another world war which will end human race.

You have all the rights to keep your opinion .... ...... until you get to a holistic understanding of human nature. It is an evolutionary process. I can understand your position as I have gone through this stage.

 

[Wadaich]

Did not listen to the video but the title line is a stupid assertion. As a Muslim you are definitely bound by the contracts, agreements, promises or undertakings, verbal or written, you make, individually or collectively, until such time as such undertakings become null and void or you openly renounce them. In the latter case, if you renounce a contract, you will then become an enemy and will be treated like one.

Quran 17:34 "You shall fulfill your pledges; surely you shall be held accountable for your pledges".

Maybe you have taken it out of context.......you have applied it in "Sumadar Paar" situation; whereas, it is about a Muslim country/state. He has quoted England as Free State, and lauded them for not being constitutional slaves ........ the constitution made by few elites to protect their interests. I would request U to please listen at least first 10-15 minutes and then comment. I would like to see your comments for being a Muslims. Even after that If U disagree with him, I would respect your opinion:)

 

[lurker]

The first step to any solution is to understanding what the problem is. And the first step to understanding is to see the world while in the other person's shoes. Try to live in a country that enforces its religion down your throat. Interferes in your life and openly discriminates you based on just a belief. How would you like living in such a place? From that point you will realize this business of Religious States just doesn't cut it. We hold to be self evident that All men are created equal.

And if the answer to such discrimination is that you have your OWN religious state, then that too I find repressing. I live in Pakistan. The state has repressive laws like Blasphemy. State censorship. Everyday the state tells us what to say, what not to say. What we can consume what we cannot. Does the state not realize that every man has a different God? No 2 Muslims have the same God; because No 2 Muslims are the same. Because no 2 minds think alike. Because every man and woman have their own interpretation of God. This Islamic state is repressive to every man's Islam.

Oh Yes! I do. That is what a Muslim is directed by the Creater :subhanahu: to be a model for the non-muslims to convince them follow Islam for a peaceful world.

The Hell Dogs (TTP/ISIS/DAESH) are the creation of CIA/MOSAD/RAW to deface Islam. These hellish monsters has nothing to do with Islam. The Last Prophet pbuh has declared them Dogs from Hell and has identified them with their crowning traits........all the aforementioned outfits confirm to those traits.

 

[Wadaich]

The first step to any solution is to understanding what the problem is. And the first step to understanding is to see the world while in the other person's shoes. Try to live in a country that enforces its religion down your throat. Interferes in your life and openly discriminates you based on just a belief. How would you like living in such a place? From that point you will realize this business of Religious States just doesn't cut it. We hold to be self evident that All men are created equal.

And if the answer to such discrimination is that you have your OWN religious state, then that too I find repressing. I live in Pakistan. The state has repressive laws like Blasphemy. State censorship. Everyday the state tells us what to say, what not to say. What we can consume what we cannot. Does the state not realize that every man has a different God? No 2 Muslims have the same God; because No 2 Muslims are the same. Because no 2 minds think alike. Because every man and woman have their own interpretation of God. This Islamic state is repressive to every man's Islam.

A thorough understanding of the problem is key to its solution......agreed! The next requisite is to select the best possible solution among the available options. Having said this we may clarify some confusions.

Remember a "religion is a set of some rituals". Christianity, Hinduism, Budhism, Sikhism etc map on it and performing these rituals is an individual matter not a social binding. On the contrary, Islam is not a religion but a code of life; which guides not only an individual covering all aspects from birth to death, but also as to how one has to behave in society to turn it into peaceful and prosperous. The few rituals in it like Kalma, Salat, Fasting, Hajj, Zakat (Charity) may be compared to daily parade of an army which keeps them mentally fit to perform their real task of defense. The same way these few rituals are made binding for an individual Muslim to be fit for following the code of life. However, if a Muslim does not follow them, he/she is answerable to Allah :subhanahu: not to state of any other individual. By not following them he/she harms only to him/herself. However, is bound by law and state to follow the social codes of society given by Allah :subhanahu:. If these are broken, law will take its course. However, here to the implementation procedure are so flexible but clear that even the most liberal mindset will feel them appropriate. One just needs to catch the spirit of it.

Now, U have free choice to opt the solution. It is a matter of choice that you prefer a roadside mechanic for your car repair maintenance, and support or the Original Equipment Manufacturer's workshop. There is no compulsion here; so is not in the case of opting for Islamic way of life :).

Again I would request U to listen to the argument with open mind and have some time to study Islamic code of life. If it doesn't convince U, adopt whatever U like upon your free will.

 

[lurker]

All religion are a code of life. There are no exceptions. If a Religion even hints at influencing your decisions in life; it is a code of life. But I think religion has its place in an individual's life; but it should be between a man and his deity.

A thorough understanding of the problem is key to its solution......agreed! The next requisite is to select the best possible solution among the available options. Having said this we may clarify some confusions.

Remember a "religion is a set of some rituals". Christianity, Hinduism, Budhism, Sikhism etc map on it and performing these rituals is an individual matter not a social binding. On the contrary, Islam is not a religion but a code of life; which guides not only an individual covering all aspects from birth to death, but also as to how one has to behave in society to turn it into peaceful and prosperous. The few rituals in it like Kalma, Salat, Fasting, Hajj, Zakat (Charity) may be compared to daily parade of an army which keeps them mentally fit to perform their real task of defense. The same way these few rituals are made binding for an individual Muslim to be fit for following the code of life. However, if a Muslim does not follow them, he/she is answerable to Allah :subhanahu: not to state of any other individual. By not following them he/she harms only to him/herself. However, is bound by law and state to follow the social codes of society given by Allah :subhanahu:. If these are broken, law will take its course. However, here to the implementation procedure are so flexible but clear that even the most liberal mindset will feel them appropriate. One just needs to catch the spirit of it.

Now, U have free choice to opt the solution. It is a matter of choice that you prefer a roadside mechanic for your car repair maintenance, and support or the Original Equipment Manufacturer's workshop. There is no compulsion here; so is not in the case of opting for Islamic way of life :).

Again I would request U to listen to the argument with open mind and have some time to study Islamic code of life. If it doesn't convince U, adopt whatever U like upon your free will.

 

[Wadaich]

All religion are a code of life. There are no exceptions. If a Religion even hints at influencing your decisions in life; it is a code of life. But I think religion has its place in an individual's life; but it should be between a man and his deity.

In a religion the matter is between man and his deity or the God. Here is where Islam does not fall in this category. In Islam individual's relation with Allah :subhanahu: is a tool to establish a peaceful and prosperous society........if this relation doesn't make him/her beneficial for society, Allah :subhanahu: doesn't need such relationship.

 

[lurker]

In a religion the matter is between man and his deity or the God. Here is where Islam does not fall in this category. In Islam individual's relation with Allah :subhanahu: is a tool to establish a peaceful and prosperous society........if this relation doesn't make him/her beneficial for society, Allah :subhanahu: doesn't need such relationship.

Even in Islam the matter is between a Man and His God. Have you met a Muslim who God has spoken to? There was once a famous case of a Woman who had drowned all her kids in a bath tub. When presented in court she said she did it because God told her to do it. Nobody bought her defense. And she argued why was this such a far fetched argument? You all believe Prophets you all have never even met. Who aren't even alive. I am here. I am standing in front of you. I am alive and I am telling you God told me to do it. Why is this so hard to believe? Obviously even if God actually told her to do it, she was still found guilty of a state declared crime.

The Problem with Religious states is, who is going to be God's tongue?

 

[Wadaich]

Even in Islam the matter is between a Man and His God. Have you met a Muslim who God has spoken to? There was once a famous case of a Woman who had drowned all her kids in a bath tub. When presented in court she said she did it because God told her to do it. Nobody bought her defense. And she argued why was this such a far fetched argument? You all believe Prophets you all have never even met. Who aren't even alive. I am here. I am standing in front of you. I am alive and I am telling you God told me to do it. Why is this so hard to believe? Obviously even if God actually told her to do it, she was still found guilty of a state declared crime.

The Problem with Religious states is, who is going to be God's tongue?

As per Muslim's belief God's direct communication with man stopped for good with the departure of the Final Prophet Muhammad pbuh, as the message of God for humans completed and written in the divine book i.e. Quran. Not even a single word in it has been tempered since its revelation. It is matter of belief. For a Muslim this belief is a prerequisite to be a Muslim. Having said this........... If after the Last Prophet pbuh anybody claims to have a direct communication or word with God, either he/she is a mental case or an imposter. So, none of such claims is worth attention. So, whatever guidance is required it is from Quran and Sunnah, the way of life the Final Prophet pbuh left for us.

You are free to disagree. Your choice ........... no compulsion. Be happy and free as a bird.

 

[lurker]

This is all belief. You don't really know. You just believe. You see I am not here to discuss the intricacies of the Islamic belief system; I am just here to remind you that the man/woman standing next to you may or may not share your beliefs. And as Jinnah said in due time Muslims will cease to be Muslims and Hindus will cease to be Hindus, not in the religious sense for that is their own faith; but in the political sense. How and When does a Muslim cease to be Muslim and a Hindu cease to be Hindu? Does Islam allow such a scenario?

As per Muslim's belief God's direct communication with man stopped for good with the departure of the Final Prophet Muhammad pbuh, as the message of God for humans completed and written in the divine book i.e. Quran. Not even a single word in it has been tempered since its revelation. It is matter of belief. For a Muslim this belief is a prerequisite to be a Muslim. Having said this........... If after the Last Prophet pbuh anybody claims to have a direct communication or word with God, either he/she is a mental case or an imposter. So, none of such claims is worth attention. So, whatever guidance is required it is from Quran and Sunnah, the way of life the Final Prophet pbuh left for us.

You are free to disagree. Your choice ........... no compulsion. Be happy and free as a bird.

 

[Talwar Gujjar]

Maybe you have taken it out of context.......you have applied it in "Sumadar Paar" situation; whereas, it is about a Muslim country/state. He has quoted England as Free State, and lauded them for not being constitutional slaves ........ the constitution made by few elites to protect their interests. I would request U to please listen at least first 10-15 minutes and then comment. I would like to see your comments for being a Muslims. Even after that If U disagree with him, I would respect your opinion:)

Ok, I did listen to his first 15 minutes. It is worse that I thought. He is just rambling around with random speculations. Agreed that Islam does not prescribe a particular method to form a Govt, but it does not stop you from picking one, be it Democracy, Military Dictatorship or Monarchy, but once you have picked one, you are bound to obey it. Islamic rules of rebelling against a constitutional authority are very restrictive. Once a Govt has been formed, its powers are practically unlimited, so don't ask for it, we are better off with a constitutional Govt, rather than no constitution.

In the past few decades, our religious scholars have stretched the political interpretation of Islam a bit too far. They seem to say that it will only be Islamic if they are given the reigns of power. That is just self serving but not correct. For all practical purposes our present political setup in Pakistan meets minimum Islamic requirements. Only major violation is possibly the Interest based banking. While no law stops you from operating an Islamic Banking in the private sector, there is no real requirement for Banking System in Islam. Early Islamic era was all run without banks. If you cannot run banks without interest, we may be better off abolishing it and let the people run their affairs themselves without interest.

My main point here is that our political system meets the minimum requirements of Islam. It is therefore binding on us to obey and cooperate with it. Our religious politicians should stop saying that it is unislamic and they have some other magic in their sleeves to mysteriously make everything great.

 

[Scholar1]

In a religion the matter is between man and his deity or the God. Here is where Islam does not fall in this category. In Islam individual's relation with Allah :subhanahu: is a tool to establish a peaceful and prosperous society........if this relation doesn't make him/her beneficial for society, Allah :subhanahu: doesn't need such relationship.

wadaich[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] , please do not worry about these doogs, they are endian or endian agents whenever they hear Zaid Hamid name they jump on the forum and start posting in appropriate comments as they know he is taking them to task and showing their real face [/FONT]

 

[Wadaich]

This is all belief. You don't really know. You just believe. You see I am not here to discuss the intricacies of the Islamic belief system; I am just here to remind you that the man/woman standing next to you may or may not share your beliefs. And as Jinnah said in due time Muslims will cease to be Muslims and Hindus will cease to be Hindus, not in the religious sense for that is their own faith; but in the political sense. How and When does a Muslim cease to be Muslim and a Hindu cease to be Hindu? Does Islam allow such a scenario?

Of course! Islam gives equal rights to all the minorities including practicing there religion and protection to their sacred places. Jinnah meant there would be no discriminatory treatment to the minorities as a human being. Minorities are exempt from being part of the state army; however, they have to pay a certain amount of tax to the state against this protection and exemption. They have no restriction of any kind for having business and education. Muslims have much better record of protecting minority rights than other faiths.

 

[Wadaich]

Ok, I did listen to his first 15 minutes. It is worse that I thought. He is just rambling around with random speculations. Agreed that Islam does not prescribe a particular method to form a Govt, but it does not stop you from picking one, be it Democracy, Military Dictatorship or Monarchy, but once you have picked one, you are bound to obey it. Islamic rules of rebelling against a constitutional authority are very restrictive. Once a Govt has been formed, its powers are practically unlimited, so don't ask for it, we are better off with a constitutional Govt, rather than no constitution.

In the past few decades, our religious scholars have stretched the political interpretation of Islam a bit too far. They seem to say that it will only be Islamic if they are given the reigns of power. That is just self serving but not correct. For all practical purposes our present political setup in Pakistan meets minimum Islamic requirements. Only major violation is possibly the Interest based banking. While no law stops you from operating an Islamic Banking in the private sector, there is no real requirement for Banking System in Islam. Early Islamic era was all run without banks. If you cannot run banks without interest, we may be better off abolishing it and let the people run their affairs themselves without interest.

My main point here is that our political system meets the minimum requirements of Islam. It is therefore binding on us to obey and cooperate with it. Our religious politicians should stop saying that it is unislamic and they have some other magic in their sleeves to mysteriously make everything great.

He does not support anarchy in Pakistan; rather he opines as a follower of Allama Iqbal that parliamentary democracy is the cause of the sufferings of human beings across the world. It is the system of governance in which only the corrupt mafia and cartels has chance to get in power. Common people can never get into the power may it be Asia, Europe, America, Africa or any region. I bet U to have a survey of the parliaments world over and tell me that even if U can find 10% of a parliamentarians from the poor or lower middle class among them. Start from Endia "the largest and democracy in the world..........failing even to provide toilets. Tell if the situation under this system is different than what Iqbal depicted in "Iblees Ki Majlis-e-Shoora"? It is under Satanist Democracy that the so called civilized countries has killed millions of people just in last 100 years. The Satanic System under the fancy name of Democracy needs to be destroyed and replaced. You may opt for any other system.

 

[Talwar Gujjar]

He does not support anarchy in Pakistan; rather he opines as a follower of Allama Iqbal that parliamentary democracy is the cause of the sufferings of human beings across the world. It is the system of governance in which only the corrupt mafia and cartels has chance to get in power. Common people can never get into the power may it be Asia, Europe, America, Africa or any region. I bet U to have a survey of the parliaments world over and tell me that even if U can find 10% of a parliamentarians from the poor or lower middle class among them. Start from Endia "the largest and democracy in the world..........failing even to provide toilets. Tell if the situation under this system is different than what Iqbal depicted in "Iblees Ki Majlis-e-Shoora"? It is under Satanist Democracy that the so called civilized countries has killed millions of people just in last 100 years. The Satanic System under the fancy name of Democracy needs to be destroyed and replaced. You may opt for any other system.

I don't know if trashing democracy will solve a lot of problems. Rather, I would argue that most prosperous nations in the world are democratic. Let's say democracy is evil, but then what. You still have to have some practical method to form a Govt. Tell me one, that would be practical and agreeable by a majority. Just don't go round and around in the name of Islam, be practical and outline a method that would work in a population of 200 million like Pakistan, not just wishful thinking.

 

[Wadaich]

I don't know if trashing democracy will solve a lot of problems. Rather, I would argue that most prosperous nations in the world are democratic. Let's say democracy is evil, but then what. You still have to have some practical method to form a Govt. Tell me one, that would be practical and agreeable by a majority. Just don't go round and around in the name of Islam, be practical and outline a method that would work in a population of 200 million like Pakistan, not just wishful thinking.

You may have a look at Chinese Governance Structure, Presidential form of democracy, Technocratic model, Khilafat or devise a model based on a combination of any of these provided that the Quran & Sunnah are declared as constitution and the ruler is answerable to Allah :subhanahu: