PKTP - Sunni Shia Unity Initiative

Status
Not open for further replies.

babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
Few Questions about Tragedy of Karbala:

a) From where it originated, War of Camel or from the murder of Usman(rzt);
b) Was the war in Karbala was between believers or non-believers.
c) What was the bone of contention "religion" or "politics"
d) Why the tragedy of Karbala is mostly limited with the narration of "few selected ones", what
about all others. Why the same whailing, chest beating is not done for them.
e) Was it all about the Interest clash between two strong dynasties Abbassiyad and Ummayad;
f) is it true that Imam Hasan(rzt), give the vote of confidence to the Ruler and in return
what Imam Hasan(rzt) was awarded?
g) what is the objective of "whailing, chest beating, zanjeezani etc", is it EBAADAT or form of EBAADAT;
h) the expected reward of all these actions is "salvation/jannat", and "Shifaat of those who were in Karbala";
i) Is it fact that whole concept of Shia ideology is based on their selected Hadiths;
Thanks. No more kilometers long posts, please be brief and to the point.
 

kmanzar

Voter (50+ posts)
اس تھریڈ پے پوسٹ ہوئی تحاریر پڑھ کر انتہائی افسوس ہو رہا ہے کے بجاے ک ہم اسلام کے آفاقی پیغام کی اصل حقیقت کو سمجھیں اور منطقیت ک ساتھ دنیا کو پیش کریں، ہمارے نوجوان برہان و منطق سے عاری انتہائی سطحی مباحثوں میں مصروف و مشغول ہیں


صاف نظر آ رہا ہے ک ہمارے نوجوانوں کو کس قدر تاریخ کا ادراک ہے اور اسلام ک بارے میں ان کی علمی و ذہنی سطح کا کیا عالم ہے


مرے بھائیوں، التماس ہے کے ذہنوں اور دلوں میں کشادگی پیدا کی جائے، غیر جانبدار تاریخ کا مطالع انتہائی ضروری ہے اور تاریخ کو تاریخ ہی رہنے دیا جائے


ماضی کے حادثات و شخصیات کو زبردستی دین کا لازمی جز بنانے کی کوششوں کا نتیجہ سامنے ہے کے ہم مسلمان اصل مقصد کو بھلا کر تقسیم در تقسیم کیڑے مکوڑوں کی مانند روندے جا رہے ہیں


میں ایک بار پھر دوہرایوں گا ک جب تک ہم تاریخ کا غیر جانبدار مطالع کرنے ک بجاے، اپنے اپنے فرقوں و مسالک ک شیاطین کی نفرت سے بھرپور تحاریر و تقاریر کو معیار بنایں گے، تو صرف تباہی ہمارا مقدر ہو گی


اب بھی وقت ہے کے ہم تنگ نظری، عدم برداشت، جذباتیت، شخصیت پرستی، نفرت اور سطحیت سے اپنا دامن چھوڑا یں اور واپس خالص الہامی پیغام 'حبل الله' کی جانب لوٹ جایں، اسی میں سبھی کی بھلائی ہے
 
Last edited:

Classified

Senator (1k+ posts)
Few Questions about Tragedy of Karbala:

a) From where it originated, War of Camel or from the murder of Usman(rzt);
b) Was the war in Karbala was between believers or non-believers.
c) What was the bone of contention "religion" or "politics"
d) Why the tragedy of Karbala is mostly limited with the narration of "few selected ones", what
about all others. Why the same whailing, chest beating is not done for them.
e) Was it all about the Interest clash between two strong dynasties Abbassiyad and Ummayad;
f) is it true that Imam Hasan(rzt), give the vote of confidence to the Ruler and in return
what Imam Hasan(rzt) was awarded?
g) what is the objective of "whailing, chest beating, zanjeezani etc", is it EBAADAT or form of EBAADAT;
h) the expected reward of all these actions is "salvation/jannat", and "Shifaat of those who were in Karbala";
i) Is it fact that whole concept of Shia ideology is based on their selected Hadiths;
Thanks. No more kilometers long posts, please be brief and to the point.

a) Originated when Abu Bakr was made the Caliph instead of Imam Ali (AS) as clearly instructed by the Holy Prophet (PBUH ). Karbala was part of the revenge that the Arabs wanted to take against the Ahl-e-bayt (AS) for their losses in so many battles before.

b)The war was between right and wrong. The war was between true Islam and what Islam had become under the Ummayads. The war was to revitalize Islam. Imam Hussain (as)and his companions (as) were right, they (as) were the true Islam. Everybody else was wrong and the mutilated form of Islam.


c)When Muslims understand that politics is very much part of Islam they will truly start to understand the tragedy of Karbala. Imam Hussain (as) rose against tyranny. There was no aim for any personal gain. As the Imam of the time it was his duty to raise his voice against the Tyranny of Yazid and those that would corrupt the religion of Allah. In fact that was the duty of all true believers.


d) We mourn all the Shaheeds of Karbala equally. But the fact is that even most of the shaheeds of Karbala would want us to mourn the Imam (as) more than anybody else.


e)Imam Hussain (as) did not belong to any dynasty. The Abbasid dynasty did not exist at the time of Karbala. It is true that Muawiya (laeen) and Yazid (laeen) belonged to Banu Ummayya but once again Imam Hussain raised his voice against all tyranny and not just the Ummayads.


f)Imam Hasan (as) did not give his vote of confidence to Muawiya (laeen). The situation of the ummah was such that if the Imam had risen then, there would have been much bloodshed and the Islamic Nation would have been weakened. This is just one of the reasons and I am sure there were many as I cannot even start to understand the wisdom of the Imam's actions.


h)There is reward but the mourning is not done with any expectation of reward. The mourning is done to remember the tragedy and to keep it alive so that the lessons of Karbala are not forgotten.


i)Shia ideology i.e. true Islam, is based on authentic hadiths of the Prophet (PBUH ). These hadiths can be found in the Sunni hadith books as well.



Escaped your question "g" because you are not interested in reading "kilometer long posts" , in fact to answer every question you asked requires not only "kilometer long posts" but every question also requires one person to look back 1400 hundred years ago up till now what genuine "scholars" have debated on these issues .
 

Classified

Senator (1k+ posts)
@babadeena

Now i ask you to answer my " 55 " questions !

you can escape anyone if you think it requires "kilometer long post"

1. History testifies that when Hadhrath Muhammad (saaws) declared his Prophethood (saaws), the Quraysh1 subjected the Bani Hashim to a boycott. Hadhrath Abu Talib (as) took the tribe to an area called Shib Abi Talib where they remained for three years, suffering from immense hardship. Where were Hadhrath Abu Bakr and Hadhrath Umar during that period? They were in Makkah so why did they not help the Holy Prophet (saaws)? If they were unable to join the Prophet (saaws) at the Shib Abi Talib is there any evidence that they provided any type of support (food etc), breaching the agreement that the Quraysh boycott all food / business transactions with Bani Hashim?

2. Hadhrath Fatima Zahra (sa) died 6 months after her father (saaws), Hadhrath Abu Bakr died two and a half years later and Hadhrath Umar in 24 Hijri. Despite their later deaths how is it that they attained burial sites next to the Prophet (saaws) and not Hadhrath Fatima (as)? Did she request that she be buried away from her father? If so, why? Or did the Muslims prevent her burial?
(see Sahih al Bukhari Arabic - English Vol 5 hadith number 546).




3. Amongst the companions Hadhrath Abu Bakr is viewed as the most superior on account of his closeness to the Holy Prophet (saaws). If this is indeed the case then why did the Holy Prophet (saaws) not select him to be his brother when he (saaws) divided the companions in to pairs on the Day of Brotherhood? Rather, the Prophet (saaws) chose Hadhrath Ali (as) saying "You are my brother in this world and the next", so on what basis is Hadhrath Abu Bakr closer?
See The History of the Khailfahs who took the right way, by Jalaladeen Suyuti, English translation by Abdassamad Clarke p177, (Taha publishers)



4. The books of Ahlul' Sunnah are replete with traditions narrated by Hadhrath Ayesha, Abu Hurraira and Abdullah Ibne Umar. Their narration's; far exceed those relayed by Hadhrath Ali (as), Hadhrath Fatima (sa), Hadhrath Hassan (as) and Hadhrath Hussain (as). Why is this the case? When the Prophet (saaws) declared "I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is it's Gate", did Hadhrath Ali (as) benefit less from the company of the Prophet (saaws) than these individuals?

5. If Hadhrath Ali (as) had no differences with the first three Khalifa's why did he not participate in any battles that took place during their reigns, particularly when Jihad against the Kuffar is deemed a major duty upon the Muslim? If he did not view it as necessary at that time, then why did he during his own Khilafath whilst in his fifties unsheathe his sword and participate in the battles of Jamal, Sifeen and Naharwan?

6. If (as is the usual allegation) the Shi'as were responsible for killing Imam Hussain (as) then why did the majority Ahlul'Sunnah not come to his aid? After all they were in the majority, there were millions of such individuals, what was their position at that time?

7. If Hadhrath Umar was correct when he denied the dying request of the Holy Prophet (saaws) on the premise that the 'Qur'an is sufficient for us' (Sahih al Bukhari Vol 7 hadith number 573) what will be the reward for accusing the Holy Prophet (saaws) of speaking nonsense?
(See Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 5 number 716)



8. Allah (swt) sent 124,000 Prophet's to guide mankind. Is there any proof that on the deaths of any one of these Prophet's his companions failed to attend his funeral preferring to participate in the selection of his successor? If no such precedent exists then why did the Prophet (saaws)'s companions follow this approach?

9. Of the 124,000 Prophets' that Allah (swt) sent, what evidence is there that they left everything for their followers as Sadaqah (Charity)? If they did, then why did the Prophet (saaws)'s wives not give all their possessions to the Islamic State? After all, Ahl'ul Sunnah consider the wives to be Ahlul'bayt. Sadaqah is haram on the Ahlul'bayt, this being the case why did they hold on to their possessions?

10. We read in the Holy Qur'an "And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense shall be hell, he shall abide therein and God's wrath (Ghazibullaho) shall be on him and his curse (lanato), and is prepared for him a great torment" (Surah Nisa, v 93) History testifies that during the battles of Sifeen and Jamal 70,800 Muslims lost their lives. What is the position of the killers here? Is this verse not applicable to them? If these individuals opposed the Khalifa of the time and were responsible for spreading fitnah (dissension) and murder, what will be their position on the Day of Judgement?

11. Allah (swt) tells us in the Holy Qur'an "And of the people of Madina are those who are bent on hypocrisy. You know them not, but we know them". (The Qur'an 9:101). The verse proves the existence of hypocrites during the lifetime of the Prophet (saaws). After the Prophet (saaws)'s death where did they go? Historians record the fact that two groups emerged following the Prophet (saaws)'s demise, Banu Hashim and their supporters, the State and their supporters. Which side did the hypocrites join?

12. If rejecting a Rightly Guided Khalifa is tantamount to apostasy and rebelling against any khalifa even Yazid ibn Mu'awiya will lead to such persons being raised as betrayers in the next world; what of those individuals who rebelled and fought the fourth rightly guided Khalifa?

13. It is a basic principle of rationality that if two parties have a dispute both can be wrong, but both can not be right. Applying this to the battles of Jamal and Sifeen, will both the murderers and the murdered be in heaven, because both were right?

14. During her lifetime Hadhrath Ayesha was a severe critic of Hadhrath Uthman, to the point that she advocated his killing. How is it that following his murder, she chose to rebel against Imam Ali (as) on the premise that his killers should be apprehended? Why did she leave Makkah, portray Hadhrath Uthman as a victim and mobilise opposition from Basrah? Was this decision based on her desire to defend Hadhrath Uthman or was it motivated by her animosity towards Hadhrath Ali (as)?
History records that she said the following about Hadhrath Uthman "Kill this old fool (Na'thal), for he is unbeliever", see History of Ibn Athir, v3, p206, Lisan al-Arab, v14, p141, al-Iqd al-Farid, v4, p290 and Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v16, pp 220-223


15. If failing to believe in Hadhrath Ayesha is an act of Kufr what opinion should we hold with regards to her killer?
Hadhrath Aysha was killed by Mu'awiya (Tarikh al Islam, by Najeeb Abadi, Vol 2 p 44)


16. It is commonly conveyed that the companions were brave, generous, and knowledgeable and spent their time worshipping Allah (swt). If we want to determine their bravery, then let us delve in to history, how many kaffir's did the prominent companion Hadhrath Umar slay during the battles of Badr, Uhud, Khunduq, Khayber and Hunain? How many polytheists did he kill during his own Khilafath? If we wish to determine who is firm against the unbelievers it cannot be that individual who despite the Prophet (saaws)'s order refused to go the Kaffir's prior to the treaty of Hudaiybiya on the grounds that he had no support and instead suggested Hadhrath Uthman go on account of his relationship to the Ummaya clan.

17. The Saha Sittah has traditions in which the Holy Prophet (saaws) foretold the coming of twelve khalifa's after him. Who are they? We assert that these are the twelve Imams from the Ahlul'bayt. Mulla Ali Qari whilst setting out the Hanafi interpretation of this hadith lists Yazid ibn Mu'awiya as the sixth Khalifa?(2) Was the Holy Prophet (saaws) really referring to such a man? When we also have a hadith that states 'He who dies without giving bayah to an Imam dies the death of one belonging to the days of jahiliyya'(3) then it is imperative that we identify and determine who these twelve khalifa's are.
(Sahih Muslim, hadith number 4483, English translation by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui)


18. Can anyone change Allah (swt) laws? The Qur'an states quite categorically that no one has that right "And it is not for a believing man or woman that they should have any choice in a matter when Allah and his Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and his Messenger; surely strays off a manifest straying". With this verse in mind, why did Hadhrath Umar introduce Tarawih prayers in congregation, three divorce utterances in one sitting and the formula 'Prayer is better than Sleep' in the Fajr Adhan? What right did he have to substitute Allah (swt)'s orders in favour of his own?

19. Do you regard Allah as Aalam (knowledgeable) or Aleem (possessor of infinite knowledge)? If Aalam, then your greatest book after the Qur'an, "Sahih al Bukhari" Volume 6 hadith number 371: "The Prophet (saws) said, "The people will be thrown into the (Hell) Fire and it will say: 'Are there any more (to come)? (50:30) till Allah puts his foot over it and it will say 'Qat! Qat!" (Enough! Enough!)". I ask, while creating Hell, did Allah under estimate its size to such an extent that he deemed it necessary to place his leg in to expand it at a later date?

20. You have six Kalimas, the sixth of which is called 'Radde Kufr' wherein you do tabarra. Like in: Fatabarra'tu Minal Kufri wash Shirki wal Kidhb. I disassociate myself from Kufr and Shirk. - Do you regard the doing of tabarra as permissible? If you deem it permissible then why do you object to the Shi'a? And if you consider it forbidden then why not terminate your sixth kalima wherein you disassociate from Kufr? Would it not be better to simply accept that Tabarra is a means of dissociating oneself from Kufr?

21. Despite the fact that you do not regard the companions as infallible and accept the notion of them committing sins, you consider it wrong to criticize them due to the respect you afford them. You regard their holiness to be in keeping evil off them, which proves the fact that, for the honour of a respectable and dignified personality it is necessary that he is kept away from sins and treated as immune from defects. This concept is infallibility in all but name. Then what objection do you have in considering the holy prophet as infallible when you consider it a sin to call his companions as sinners and reject the infallibility of the holy prophet himself?

22. If Khilafah or Imamah is a matter of religion then as per the Qur'an, the Sunnah of God does not change. Therefore, beginning with Adam (as) through to the prophet Isa (as), name any prophet after whom one of his companions had been chosen as his vicegerent without gap, depriving the members of that prophet's household of the same right.

23. If none of the prophets preceding the holy prophet had a vicegerent who wasn't from his near of kin then why was the Sunnah of Allah (swt) changed in relation to Rasulullah (s)? Refer us to the verse and a hadith of commentary to prove such a change.

24. Can the apostle forbid what has been allowed by Allah? Can you reply by relying on a Qur'anic verse? Is anyone from among the ummah authorised to forbid what has been allowed by Allah and His messenger? Allamah Shibli Nu'mani in al Farooq page 217 narrates from Saheeh Muslim that Umar had said that two Mut'a were allowed during the time of the holy prophet but I disallow them from now and these are the Mut'a of Hajj and the Mut'a of Nisaa. On what religious authority did Umar forbid what the apostle and Allah (swt) allowed? Clarify this point.

25. When the start of every Surah of the Qur'an has been made with Bismillah, why then do you not start the Surahs in your salaat with Bismillah?

26. Point out Assalaatu minan nawm to us from the Qur'an if not then at least from an authentic hadeeth. Prove that these words had been used as part of the Adhan during Abubakr's period.

27. Prove to us that the prayers of taraweeh had been said in congregation during the time of the holy Prophet[saww] and during the period of Abubakr.

28. From the period of Abubakr, present any example or a report to prove that Abubakr said his prayers by folding his arms. If you can, why do the Malikis keep their arms straight while saying their prayers?

29. The Qur'an instructs us to fast till night "thamar atmou alsiyamar ilaa Al-lail", and night enters when darkness casts in. Why do you open your fasts early? Why were Umar and Uthman opening their fasts after Maghrib prayers? Nuqaa' Umar, Page 110, Hadeeth 351, by Shah Waliallah Dhelavi

30. You claim that the Shia'a Qur'an contains forty parts, prove its source from the four Shia key books (Kutub Al-'Arba'a).

31. If Mut'a is Haraam, why did Asma Bin Abubakr do it? For evidence, refer to Tafseer Mazhari Qadhi Thanaa Allah , page 577.

32. In Mishkat Shareef, it is reported that when Abubakr and Umar asked the holy Prophet[saww] for his daughter, Lady Fatima[sa]'s hand the Prophet[saww] replied she is too young to marry, is this a correct report? If it is wrong then prove it with full evidence both intellectual and textual. If this is correct then think rationally over the fact that, Umme Kulthum[sa] whose mother was too young to marry these people, marries these same personalities, does this make sense?

33. You believe that the Khilafat can either be established by public votes or the way of ijma (consensus). Could you verify this with evidence from the sayings of the apostle himself?

34. Did the holy prophet (saww) depart from this world without giving guidance on Khilafat? If yes, why then did the two shaykhs say 'ilaaimatu minal quraysh' (The Imams are from Quraysh) in saqeefa bani sa'da? Did they specifically lie for leadership? Also why oppose the holy prophet's Sunnah, why did Abubakr candidate Umar?

35. Did the two shaykhs of Ahl'ul Sunnah participate in the burial rituals of the holy Prophet[saww], if you claim they did, then why do we read that both Sharh mawaqif and Al Farooq Shibli Nu'mani confirm their absence? If they did not participate then what type of friends are these?

36. In Musnad Ahmed Hanbal and so on, it is mentioned that Ayesha had named Uthman as Nathal, who should be killed and Murtakib Kufr. If you regard Ayesha as the truthful then you will have to accept what she called Uthman. And if she did not tell the truth then why do you call her the truthful?

37. The soldiers that the holy prophet (saww) had prepared against Musailimah ibn kazzab were commanded by Usama and Abubakr and Umar were also instructed to be under him. Why did Abubakr and Umar not go? What legal dispensation did they have that entitled them to ignore the holy Prophet[saww]'s commands? If they have such dispensation, why did the holy Prophet[saww] curse those who were appointed for participation but did not go?
See also: Milal wa Al-Nihal [English translation] page 18


38. In Muwatta of Imam malik, translated by Allamah Waheed al Zamaan, Page 147, hadeeth 603, Rasulullah (s) narrates that a companion had approached him, beating his chest and ripping his hair. If chest beating in the presence of Rasulullah (s) is allowed then why do you object to it? Sheikh Abdul Haq Muhaddath Dehlavi in his book Midaaraj Nabaweeya, vol. 2, page 544 writes that the Mu'adhdhin of the apostle, Hadhrath Bilal Habashi (r.a) came to the Mosque of the Prophet[saww] beating his chest and complaining. What is your verdict regarding chest beating? In the Musnad of Imam Hanbal, Egyptian edition, Vol. 6, Page 274 it is written that upon the demise of the holy Prophet[saww], Ayesha beat her chest along with the other women, what is your opinion regarding this act of Ummul Mu'mineen?

39. Hadhrath Ali Hajweeri Al Mash-huur Daata Ganj Bakhsh Lahori in his book Kashful Mahjoob, chapter 2, page 118, section 8 reports it from Umar, that the holy Prophet[saww] played as a horse for the then young Imam Hussain[as], meaning he made himself a replica of a horse. Following the Sunnah of the holy Prophet[saww] is it Sunnah (tradition) to make a replica of Imam Hussain[as]'s horse (Zuljenah) or is it a bid'at (Innovation)?

40. Kanzul A'mal, Hayder Aabad edition, vol. 5, in the Musnad of Ali karramallahu wajhu, page 147, hadeeth 2403 it is written that, the holy Prophet[saww] used to wipe his feet during wudhoo, why do you not regard wiping as permissible? If the feet will go to hell by being kept dry during wudhoo then how is the wiping over the socks correct?

41. The historian, Habib as Sayr writes regarding the battle of Hunayn that: Purseed Abu Bakr wa Umar kujaa Budand? Guft aan neez dar goshe rafte budand. Meaning when it was enquired where Abubakr and Umar were?, the narrator replied they had also fled to some corner. Contemplate over this narration, let it be very clear that in your Tafseer Qaweri, Tafseer Hussayni, Rawdhatus Safaa, Taareekhul Khamseen, Rawdhatul Ahbab, Ma'aarijun Nubuwwah, etc it is mentioned that the three gentlemen had fled from the battle of Hunayn. Why did they break the covenant of the Bay'at of Ridhwan? Reply after reading all these books.

42. If these three men had been brave then show us from your book Tafseer Qaweri the names of these three men from among those who did not flee in the battle of Hunayn. And prove it to us from all of your books, how many non-believers had been killed by these three men in the battles of Badr, Uhud, Khaybar, Khandaq and Hunayn. How many non-believers did they inflict with harm? And how much harm did themselves sustain in their bodies? And just mention five names with complete sources from among those whom these people killed. If Umar has been brave then write the names of people who got killed at his hands in the battles of Uhud and Hunayn from historical sources compare Ali[sa] and Umar so that their doings in those two battles become known.

43. In the Tafseer of Dur Manthur Suyuti, vol. 54, and Izalatul Khifa of Shah Waliyyullaah Muhaddath Dahlavi, page 199 etc. it is written that the holy Prophet[saww] told Abubakr 'The polytheism is moving in you like the moving of an ant'. Take notice of this hadeeth and tell us how then was he a siddeeq? And if he did not have shirk within himself then dare to belie like a disbeliever the truthfulness of the holy Prophet[saww].

44. You oppose the halaal Mut'a and do not hesitate terming it as adultery. But in your book Sharh Wiqaaya, page 298, it is mentioned that to your Imam Abu Hanifa, stated the expenditure of an adulteress is halaal and there is not any jurisprudential limit on one who rewards a woman for zinah. Is Mut'ah worse than this?

45. By calling Marwan back from Medinah, Uthman bin Affan opposed the holy Prophet[saww]. Do you reproach this or support it?

46. It is an established fact in the books of Sunnis that Muawiyah had disputed with the Khalifah Rashid (the rightly guided caliph) and ordered the poisoning of Imam Hassan[sa] (check Mahram Naama, khwaja Hassan Nidhami) and why are the companions who made Ali[as] be abused on the pulpits considered as fair players? Give us intellectual and textual reasoning.

47. According to your hadith, prophet said "If there was a prophet after me, it would have been none other than Omer Ibn Al Khitab". How can this be possible as it was Ali to Muhammad what Haroon was to Moses. Also Omer was not even the first caliph. His merital excellence are incomparable with Ali's. How can this hadith be authenticated? It is also known that Umer was a drunkard and idol worshipper before he accepted Islam. Are not prophets born prophets?

48. If the Prophet knew about the conflict and differences which would afflict the umma because of the Caliphate, why did he not appoint a Caliph? Why did the Sheikhs attend the meeting at saqeefa and not attend the Prophet's funeral. If the appointment of a leader was so important, why didn't the Prophet (SAW) address the situation. How is it that none of the companions asked the Messenger about this matter when they used to ask him about everything?

49. Why did some of the companions disagree with the Prophet of Allah when he wanted to write for them a letter which would save them from going astray after him, and instead they said that he was hallucinating?

50. Why did the Prophet not send 'Ali in Usama's army? Why did he place at the head of the army a youth (Usama) who did not even have hair upon his cheeks? Why did the Prophet anger over those staying behind become so severe that he cursed them?

51. Why did the Ansar secretly get together in the Saqifa of Bani Sa'ida? Why did Abu Bakr, 'Umar and Abu 'Ubayda hurry to the Saqifa and surprise the Ansar? Why did the Muhajirun win over the Ansar and submit the matter to Abu Bakr?


52. What are your views on a person whom Fatima al-Zahra had angered?

53. Why did the Sheikhs fight those who withheld the zakat ,despite the Prophet forbidding that? Why did they prevent the writing down and transmission of the hadith of the Prophet? (We all know Muslim and Bukhari came 300 Years later)

54. Why did 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Awf stipulate the condition on 'Ali b. Abu Talib that he should rule according to the sunna of the two Caliphs? And why did 'Ali reject this condition? What was wrong with it?

55. Which Quranic order or Sharia allows the nomination of caliphs differently? Abu Bakr's election, Umer's Direct nomination & Uthman's Council choice?


 

babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
a) Originated when Abu Bakr was made the Caliph instead of Imam Ali (AS) as clearly instructed by the Holy Prophet (PBUH ). Karbala was part of the revenge that the Arabs wanted to take against the Ahl-e-bayt (AS) for their losses in so many battles before.
First of all many thanks Classified. Your replies are to the point and brief and that is the beauty of discussion. Now I take your first reply:
If the conflict originated, as you had maintained, with the nomination of Abu Bakr(rzt) as first Caliph, so you are implying that:
a) the right of Ali(rzt) was usurped;
b) the decision was wrong;
c) it planted the seed of dissension among people; etc. etc.
My dear my question is that why it took so long till Imam Hussain to revolt for taking over power. I have read in many
place that Ali(rzt) is Shair-e-Khuda, why he did not revolt and fought against Abu Bakar. If Prophet(pbuh) has so
instructed, the memories were fresh in the minds of the people. Why the people did not revolt against Abu Bakr(rzt);
your answer is either not giving the status to Ali(rzt) which has been narrated in many books (his bravery, his
steadfastness with Truth) or your answer is wrong because Ali(rzt) did accept the rule of Abu Bakr without
any resentment and became part of the government. My dear logically your answer is totally wrong and
has no substance. What is your choice. Now please do not tell me that Ali(rzt) wished to save the lives
of Muslims, which in any case were not saved in Jamal and Safin either.

=====================================================================
PEOPLE WHO PASSED BEFORE YOU TOOK THEIR ACCOUNT WITH THEIR LORD.
YOU(THE PRESENT DAY PEOPLE) WILL NOT BE ASKED WHAT THEY(THE PASSED
PEOPLE) USED TO DO. THEY(Passed People) are responsible for their deeds and
You(the present one) will be responsible for your Deeds.
(Quran)
 
Last edited:

Classified

Senator (1k+ posts)
First of all many thanks Classified. Your replies are to the point and brief and that is the beauty of discussion. Now I take your first reply:
If the conflict originated, as you had maintained, with the nomination of Abu Bakr(rzt) as first Caliph, so you are implying that:
a) the right of Ali(rzt) was usurped;
b) the decision was wrong;
c) it planted the seed of dissension among people; etc. etc.
My dear my question is that why it took so long till Imam Hussain to revolt for taking over power. I have read in many
place that Ali(rzt) is Shair-e-Khuda, why he did not revolt and fought against Abu Bakar. If Prophet(pbuh) has so
instructed, the memories were fresh in the minds of the people. Why the people did not revolt against Abu Bakr(rzt);
your answer is either not giving the status to Ali(rzt) which has been narrated in many books (his bravery, his
steadfastness with Truth) or your answer is wrong because Ali(rzt) did accept the rule of Abu Bakr without
any resentment and became part of the government. My dear logically your answer is totally wrong and
has no substance. What is your choice. Now please do not tell me that Ali(rzt) wished to save the lives
of Muslims, which in any case were not saved in Jamal and Safin either.

=====================================================================
PEOPLE WHO PASSED BEFORE YOU TOOK THEIR ACCOUNT WITH THEIR LORD.
YOU(THE PRESENT DAY PEOPLE) WILL NOT BE ASKED WHAT THEY(THE PASSED
PEOPLE) USED TO DO. THEY(Passed People) are responsible for their deeds and
You(the present one) will be responsible for your Deeds.
(Quran)


جس مسلے پر آپ بحث کرنا چاہ رہے ہیں وہ ہے "خلافت" کا مسلہ- جو اگر اتنا آسان ہوتا کے ایک یا دو پوسٹوں میں آپ میرے دلائل یا میں آپکے دلائل کو رد کرنے سے حل ہو جاتا تو کیا ہی بات تھی- آج سے چودہ سو سال پہلے بھی اس پر اختلاف ختم ہو جاتا- آپ نے مختصرا سوال جو پوچھے انکا اسی لحاظ سے مختصرا جواب بھی دے دیا- میرے خیال میں آپ کا مقصد ہمارا "پوائنٹ آف ویو " جاننا تھا اسی لیے جواب دیا- اگر آپکا مقصد اس سے ہٹ کر اس مسلے کو زیر بحث لانا ہے تو بہت معذرت کے ساتھ اس تھریڈ کا قطن یہ مقصد نہیں ہے اور نہ ہی فورم کے اصول اس کی اجازت دیتے ہیں- اسکے لیے مناسب فورم اور بہت ہیں لیکن میرے لحاظ سے کم ازکم یہ فورم نہیں ہے- مناسب سمجھیے تو اسی تھریڈ میں بھائی معظّم ، بھائی کامران اور دوسرے لوگوں کے نیوٹرل کمینٹس پڑھیے اور اگر کچھ اتحاد مابین المسلیمین کے اوپر کچھ کہہ سکتے ہیں تو لازمی کہیے- اسکے باوجود بھی اگر آپ دلچسپی رکھتے ہیں اس نازک مسلے کو بحث کرنے میں تو جب جب دامن وقت میں گنجائش ہوئی ، آپکو جواب ملتے رہیں گے انشاللہ- اور پھر آپکو بھی تھوڑا وقت صرف کر کے میری "کلو میٹر لمبی" پوسٹس پڑھنی پڑیں گی- فلحال تو میں منتظر ہوں کے آپ میرے پچپن سوالوں کا بھی اسی مختصرا انداز سے جواب دیجیے تاکے پھر میں بھی آپ کی جانب سے کئے جانے والے سوال دار سوال کا جوابل جواب دوں-
دوسری اہم بات یہ کے اگر مناظرے میں دلچسپی ہے آپکو تو پہلے آداب مناظرہ کے مطابق اپنا مسلک بیان کیجیے تاکے حوالے دینے میں سہولت ہو- شکریہ-
 
Last edited:

QaiserMirza

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
الله تعالی نے دنیا تخلیق کرنے کے بعد اپنی مخلوقات میں سب سے اعلی اور اشرف مخلوق انسان کو بنایا
الله تعالی نے انسان کو عقل اور سمجھ عطا فرمائی
انسان کو شعور دیا کہ وہ اچھے اور برے میں تمیز کر سکے
انسان کو قبیلوں میں باٹھ دیا ان کی پہچان کے لیے
پھر کچھ انسانوں نے الله کی طرف سے بھجے ہوے انبیا کی تقلید کی اور الله کے فرمابردار بن گۓ
کچھ انسانوں نے اپنی عقل کو استعمال کرتے ہوے خود ہی اپنے معبود بنا لئے اور ان کو پوجھنے لگے
دنیا میں ہزاروں مذاہب وجود میں آے
ہر مذہب کا اپنا ایک نظام، اپنی منطق اور اپنی تعلیمات ہیں
کسی بھی مذہب پر عمل کرنے والا اس وقت تک اس مذہب کا پیروکار نہیں ہو سکتا جب تک وہ اس مذہب کی تمام بنیادی عقاید پر ایمان نہیں لاتا اور ان کو اپنے دل سے نہیں مانتا

ان ہزاروں مذاہب میں شعیہ وہ واحد مذہب ہے جس کا بنیادی عقیدہ دوسروں کی تذلیل اور دوسروں پر لعنت بھیجنے کے بغیر مکمل نہیں ہوتا
اس مذہب کا پیروکار اگر اسلام کی موحترّم ہستیوں پر جب تک لعنت نہیں بھیجے وہ اس مذہب میں شامل نہیں ہو سکتا

حیرت کی بات یہ کہ اس مذہب کے وہ لوگ جو کہ رہنما کہے جاتے ہیں وہ دوسروں کی تذلیل میں اتنے آگے چلے جاتے ہیں کہ ان کی زبان فحش گوئی پر اتر جاتی ہے
دنیا کا کوئی بھی موہذب اور سمجھدار انسان اپنی زبان کی حفاظت کرتا ہے اور فحش کلام سے دور رہتا ہے
مگر ان کا مذہب اس وقت تک مکمل نہیں ہوتا جب تک یہ گالیاں نہیں دیتے

پھر دنیا میں کوئی بھی ایسا غیرتمند انسان نہیں ہوگا جو اپنے محبت کرنے والوں کے لئے گالیوں کو برداشت کرلے

اگر آپ موحترّم صحابہ اکرام اور تمام مومنین کی ماؤں کی تذلیل برداشت کر سکتے ہیں تو پھر آپ بھی ان میں شامل ہو جائیں
اس لیے کہ خرافات سننا اور چپ رہنا ان خرافات کو تسلیم کرنے کے مترادف ہے

 
Last edited:

Classified

Senator (1k+ posts)
@qaiserMirza

اخلاقی طور پر تو ابھی تک تمنے اپنا سہی مسلک بھی نہیں بتایا یہاں- بلکے صحیح طریقے سے بحث کرنے کے بجاے اپنی ہی ہانکے جا رہے ہو چلو ایسے ہی سہی میں مجبور نہیں کرتا کے تم اپنا قادیانی یا وہابی مسلک ہمکو بتاؤ- جذباتی باتیں کر کے اور بہتان تراشی کر کے لوگوں کی آنکھوں میں دھول نہیں جھونک سکتے تم اور اسکا ثبوت یہاں اسی تھریڈ میں مرے اہل سنت بھایوں نے تمہاری گھٹیا سوچ سے اختلاف کر کے دے دیا ہے!

اتنی لمبی چوڑی تمہید باندھنے کی ضرورت نہیں تھی تمکو کیونکے تمہاری برداشت کا لیول مجھے بہت اچھی طرح سے معلوم ہے- تمنے تو آیت اللہ خامنائی کے فتوے پر بھی اپنی خباثت کا اظہار کیا ہے-

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by QaiserMirza
کیا کبھی "کلب" (یعنی کتا ) بھی "صادق" (یعنی سچا ) ہوا ہے ؟
اب مجھے یہ بتاؤ کے یہاں یہ تمنے کیوں گستاخی کی ایک عالم کے نام کا مذاک اڑا کے اور پھر اسکا جواب بھی تمنے پڑھ لیا ہوگا جو میں نے دیا ہے! اس لیے اپنے آپ کو بلا ضرورت لمبی لمبی شیوں کے خلاف توہمتیں لگا کر یہ ثابت نہ کرو کے تم کوئی بہت ہی کوئی عالم و فاضل ہو دین کے بارے میں اور نہ ہی پھر دوسروں کو نصیحت کرو اس بات کی جسکا پاس تم خود نہیں کر سکتے-
 
Last edited:

Classified

Senator (1k+ posts)
"اس لیے کہ خرافات سننا اور چپ رہنا ان خرافات کو تسلیم کرنے کے مترادف ہے"یہ تو تمھارے اپنے ہی الفاظ ہیں نا؟ تو تمہاری خرافات کو نہ ہم سن سکتے ہیں اور نہ ہی تسلیم کر سکتے ہیں-
 

nasir ahmed

Voter (50+ posts)
This is garbage if the Shias keep on slandering the first 3 caliphs there can be no unity. From the nass of the Quran the Sahaba are guaranteed heaven in Surah Fateh and Surah Towbah. If these trash also keep slandering the wives of the Prophet |(SAW) who are the mothers of the believers and God states in the Quran I have chosen the best women on this earth for you. There can never by unity with someone who contradicts the Quran and makes his own version of Islam up.
 

QaiserMirza

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
This is garbage if the Shias keep on slandering the first 3 caliphs there can be no unity. From the nass of the Quran the Sahaba are guaranteed heaven in Surah Fateh and Surah Towbah. If these trash also keep slandering the wives of the Prophet |(SAW) who are the mothers of the believers and God states in the Quran I have chosen the best women on this earth for you. There can never by unity with someone who contradicts the Quran and makes his own version of Islam up.

Thank you Nasir Bhai. Jazak Allah Khair
 

nasir ahmed

Voter (50+ posts)
Hazrat Ali (ra) was never appointed has the first caliph by the prophet this is a pipe dream. However Abu Bakr (ra) was given the chance to lead the Jamah during the prophet’s lifetime. The leader of the prayer is the best amongst the community therefore Abu Bakr (ra) is the choice of the prophet.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top