Prophet saw Musa praying in his grave

[Shimaz]

Oh chal oye jaa ni. Aab yeh dialogue bohat purana hogaya hai, jub se tu is forum pe bakwas ker raha hai yeh dailogue ragard raha hai

See people who are really interested in exchange of ideas even if opposing your POV I'm all for it, see how I go into great details with others.

Worthless cretins like you are least interested in an exchange of you just want to shove your point of view down other peoples throats and show them how superior you are!

Chal jaa nuss itho, wadda aya thanedaar da puttar! lol

Har dafa esay hi bhaag jata hay bagher jawab diay.....mistri ka putar.

 

[Shimaz]

Says the mushrik munkir e Quran. who have a deadly allergy to Allah's word the Quran.
They follow their prophet Bhukari and their Quran the hadith.

What i said about you is what you accept yourself. You reject All hadith and sunnah and pick and choose from quran what suits you. Is it not true you are munkir of hadith?
What you said about me is your assumptions and desperate attempt to get back at me.
Fine.

 

[Shimaz]

After witnessing the comparison between the hadith and the Quran, how can a sound mind still insist on hadith? How can still call those books sharif, or sahih, or authentic? How can they forgive the hadith narrators and collectors who sold them all kinds of lies and stories, containing so much ignorance and distortion?

ASK your lying through his smelly teeth BF how he came up with these figures and prove it...
Let's see how much of a questioner you are lol...


HE started off with this BS...he needs to start with this to move on. Pooch..himat paida kar...

 

[Wake up Pak]

ASK your lying through his smelly teeth BF how he came up with these figures and prove it...
Let's see how much of a questioner you are lol...

My son, tell me how to perform Namaz from Hadith books, why are you running away? I hope you do perform Namaz, don't you?

 

[Citizen X]

choose from quran what suits you

Prove this and I will publicly admit I was wrong and all hadith are correct, you are correct, also delete my account and leave this forum for good.

And if you can't then you will do the same.

Challenge accepted?

Now don't run away now you hear

 

[Shimaz]

Prove this and I will publicly admit I was wrong and all hadith are correct, you are correct, also delete my account and leave this forum for good.

And if you can't then you will do the same.

Challenge accepted?

Now don't run away now you hear

Oh right..now he wants challenges...tujhay jau challenge diya hoa hay us ko finish kar pehlay....phir toffee milay ge..

 

[Shimaz]

My son, tell me how to perform Namaz from Hadith books, why are you running away? I hope you do perform Namaz, don't you?

you are dumb man. this is the boring pattern you both always finish up with...ider uder ki bakwas...and never answering the question you need to answer...

 

[Wake up Pak]

you are dumb man. this is the boring pattern you both always finish up with...ider uder ki bakwas...and never answering the question you need to answer...

Chalo toum apni bakwas say bata dou kay ahadith say Namaz kaysay parhni hay?
bhaagh kiyon rahay ho?

 

[Shimaz]

Chalo toum apni bakwas say bata dou kay ahadith say Namaz kaysay parhni hay?
bhaagh kiyon rahay ho?

Ya yeh bacha dyslexic hay ya autistic...
99.556% walay Sawal say esa bhaga hay yeh miaan pakistan say london bhaga tha lol
BF bi jawab nahi dey ra is ki bakwas ka...

 

[Wake up Pak]

you are dumb man. this is the boring pattern you both always finish up with...ider uder ki bakwas...and never answering the question you need to answer...

Mayray puttar maan lay kay na tujhay Quran ka pata hay aur na he ahadith ka. Toum ankh bundh karkay mullah key darhi say lutkay huay ho aur jo woh bhoonktay hain toum acept kar lay taay ho. Waysay tumhara kon say sect hay?

 

[Shimaz]

Mayray puttar maan lay kay na tujhay Quran ka pata hay aur na he ahadith ka. Toum ankh bundh karkay mullah key darhi say lutkay huay ho aur jo woh bhoonktay hain toum acept kar lay taay ho. Waysay tumhara kon say sect hay?

Ab meray say seekh kay mujhay na bata. Take a hike with your cooked up excel BS.

 

[Shimaz]

I am not disagreeing with you, it's just that I had a figure of 124,000 forged ahadith for Bukhari but didn't have the figures for other and just wanted to know where you got them from.

He is a liar and knows it too. Proved it over and over again. And he can't back this numbers up. Not now. Not ever. It's clear.
Obviously you can see it for yourself but have your reasons for not calling it out.

 

[Citizen X]

Oh right..now he wants challenges...tujhay jau challenge diya hoa hay us ko finish kar pehlay....phir toffee milay ge..

Ohhh I hear the footsteps of someone running away.

And your so called challenge is laughable at best, which proves your blind following ignorance of your own beloved hadith more than anything else because these figures are from your bhand moulvis and so called scholars and they widely accept it! lol

Just to shut you up which I know you wont and you'll make some other excuse and runaway but I'm feeling generous

“It has been narrated through two firm channels of transmission that Al-Bukhari said: ‘I extracted this book from 600,000 hadiths, and I compiled it over sixteen years, and I made it a plea for what lies between myself and Allah.” Source: (Narrated by al-Khatib, al-Jami’ li-Akhlaq alrawi 2:270-271

One of your greatest hadith scholars of all time Imam Al Nawawi said, “The totality of its hadiths are 7,275 with the repetitions and about 4,000 without.”
Source: (Volume 1 Hadith History & Principles-Gibril Fouad Haddad pg 105)

So these are wrong too?

AND if my math is correct take out 4000 from 7275 equals to 3275 actual hadith which he accepted from the 600,000 he collected, so what percentage is 3275 of 600000.

Any guesses hmmmmm ? ..........................That's 0.54% so your greatest of them all rejected 99.46% of all hadith.

Now I know you will squirm away like the coward you are or start your as expected interrogation. NO BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS ANSWER ME THIS FIRST!

And then claim some kind of moral high ground and runaway.

All roads lead to religious patwaris running away! lol

SO NOW ARE YOU READY TO ACCEPT MY CHALLENGE?

 

[Citizen X]

Ya yeh bacha dyslexic hay ya autistic...
99.556% walay Sawal say esa bhaga hay yeh miaan pakistan say london bhaga tha lol
BF bi jawab nahi dey ra is ki bakwas ka...

Religious patwaran running away!

 

[NailaFirdous]

Well the question you have to ask yourself is whether to follow something which is without a doubt the one true book from Allah and the only one he promised to protect, or to follow books written by men centuries after the prophet passed away, something they had no authorization to do from either the prophet or from Allah, and books which have such sketchy and unreliable foundations.

As for the rituals, Quran says its a detailed book and contains everything you need to know in it ( religion wise ) if these rituals were so important why is no detailed account on how to perform them? The Quran talks about many thing is the minutest detail but then somehow Allah forgot to mention how to perform these rituals forget perform doesn't even mention all their times!

For arguments sake lets say there are or were some kind of rituals to be performed or the Prophet performed them how do we know what those rituals were? I know some will say they were preserved by "tawattur" as in handed down generation to generation en masse, you think Allah would leave such an important piece of worship if we are to believe todays mullahs that the ritual prayer is the first thing Allah will ask you when the day comes and literally could mean an eternity in heaven or hell, to mass transmission? Just in todays world you can see every sect has its own way of praying, so which one right?

And you bring up a very good point about hadith, I always ask people to answer a hypothetical question of mine ( and no one has yet answered it ) imagine if today there was no Quran in the world and only hadith, how much of a difference would it make to the Muslim worlds belief and practices, also on the flip side, imagine if there was no hadith and only the Quran, how much of difference would it make to the Muslim worlds belief and practices?

When you truthfully answer these questions you'll realize what todays Muslims are actually following is not the Quran but man made hadith. And so many practices which if you really think about it are shirk have creeped in, like the so called 1st kalima and darood. Quran clearly states do not that do not call out to anyone besides Allah in your prayers and duas and yet Muslims call out to Mohammad and Ibrahim AND their families (??!!??) 5 times a day! Why do we call out to these two prophets when Quran clearly says all prophets are equal, ok through some verbal gymnastic we justify that then why are we calling out to their families????

They say there is no god but Alllah AND Mohammad is his messenger meaning you are putting Allah and his messenger on the same level, you go to their mosques and you see Allah written there and right next to it Muhammad and people bow to it all day long?

No wonders the early westerners in the first contact with Muslims never called them Muslims but rather Mohammadens, because thats what they saw, a bunch of people worshipping God and Muhammad.

And I know you find it difficult because even today I do, because it was the hardest things I've probably done in my life. And I still question myself regularly. You see just like everyone else I grew up in a traditional sunni Muslim house and followed the traditional ways learnt prayer, Quran, went on hajj into my mid 40s, I'm probably one of the few people here who has actually read the entire Sahih Bhukari cover to cover and chunks of the other sahih sitta.

But then this little pesky bugger started to make all sorts of outlandish claims that hadith is fake and we don't follow the Quran etc etc what blasphemy! Astaghfirullah I had never heard such preposterous claims in my life before and worse was I really didn't have any good arguments to get at him. That really ticked me off, so I said the only way to "defeat" this guy is arm myself with real knowledge and beat him down with it.

So I went into this deep dive research into hadith and the more I read the more of his claims started to sound true, and I would say over a period of anywhere between 1.5 to 2 years of researching hadith it had become clear to me that I was on the wrong path and had been following some perverted version of Islam. Heart breaking, which gave me this huge lump in my gut feeling so wronged.

But I also was also scared and constantly questioned myself, this can't be right, its not possible so many people for so many centuries are following something so crooked! What makes me so special and smarter than all the millions of "scholars" over time who have devoted every waking moment to the deen, that I was able to realize something so obvious and they weren't. WHAT IF I'm wrong! I'll surely burn in hell for this.

So in a nutshell it was far from easy.

Also people have always questioned hadith from day 1 of Islam, this is not something new as some might want to you believe, some western conspiracy to create division among the Muslims!!!

Here read this thread of mine on the history of hadith. You might find it useful

History Of Hadith : Why The Prophet Forbade It And Khulafa Burnt It

www.siasat.pk

P.S : Sorry for the long post! If you find them difficult to read let me know.

Thank you for this it is much appreciated.

 

[Citizen X]

Thank you for this it is much appreciated.

You're most welcomed, It was my pleasure.

Also just to add, that every fear I had when I was going through this whole ordeal I found an answer to it in the Quran. For example when I was thinking how could I be the one or two few people in the world who actually don't hold these beliefs ( at that time I had no idea how big and rapidly growing this movement was I actually thought there might be maybe just a dozen or so of us!)

Then I read the verse where the Quran talks about the people who say how can we abandon the religion of fathers and fore fathers and adopt this new religion? Even though their ancestors knew nothing.

And the verse that how if you follow the majority they will surely lead you astray.

When people say the Quran talks to you, it really does.

 

[NailaFirdous]

You're most welcomed, It was my pleasure.

Also just to add, that every fear I had when I was going through this whole ordeal I found an answer to it in the Quran. For example when I was thinking how could I be the one or two few people in the world who actually don't hold these beliefs ( at that time I had no idea how big and rapidly growing this movement was I actually thought there might be maybe just a dozen or so of us!)

Then I read the verse where the Quran talks about the people who say how can we abandon the religion of fathers and fore fathers and adopt this new religion? Even though their ancestors knew nothing.

And the verse that how if you follow the majority they will surely lead you astray.

When people say the Quran talks to you, it really does.

Pervez was the only one who raised this at an academic level, unfortunately, he was severely condemned by the likes of Maududi and others and unfortunately it stifled Pervez's thinking and towards the end of his life intellectual fatigue set in and he back tracked on a few things. The same thing happened to Dr Ghulam Jilani Burq.
There are similar views held by a few modern Hanbali students but they haven't gone as far as rejecting the hadith outright, although, they criticise Bukhari severely but instead rely on Mawatta Imam Malik.
Due to the fear from the extremest Pervez was guarded on giving clear view on salat etc. From your reading and research what is suggested as a mean of connecting to Allah if not namaz? Any thoughts?

 

[Citizen X]

Pervez was the only one who raised this at an academic level, unfortunately, he was severely condemned by the likes of Maududi and others and unfortunately it stifled Pervez's thinking and towards the end of his life intellectual fatigue set in and he back tracked on a few things. The same thing happened to Dr Ghulam Jilani Burq.
There are similar views held by a few modern Hanbali students but they haven't gone as far as rejecting the hadith outright, although, they criticise Bukhari severely but instead rely on Mawatta Imam Malik.
Due to the fear from the extremest Pervez was guarded on giving clear view on salat etc. From your reading and research what is suggested as a mean of connecting to Allah if not namaz? Any thoughts?

TBH honest I'm not a fan of Parvez at all. I've heard his lectures and being able to speak some Arabic the weird translations he has done of the Quran really don't gel well with me. But I would say he had the right idea, but went a bit too far with them

And I'm no scholar or anything, just avg joe. I would suggest just read the Quran with proper understanding what salah in the Quran actually means, he's a bit harsh because he's been dealing with religious patwaris for a decade now, so his patience is a bit thin lol But he means well.

Here are three videos of a much more knowledgeable friend of mine on the subject.

 

[Wake up Pak]

Ab meray say seekh kay mujhay na bata. Take a hike with your cooked up excel BS.

Chalo toum he bata dou kiya figures hain? Bhikhari nay kitni ahadith likhi aur kis zamanay may?

 

[NailaFirdous]

TBH honest I'm not a fan of Parvez at all. I've heard his lectures and being able to speak some Arabic the weird translations he has done of the Quran really don't gel well with me. But I would say he had the right idea, but went a bit too far with them

And I'm no scholar or anything, just avg joe. I would suggest just read the Quran with proper understanding what salah in the Quran actually means, he's a bit harsh because he's been dealing with religious patwaris for a decade now, so his patience is a bit thin lol But he means well.

Here are three videos of a much more knowledgeable friend of mine on the subject.

Thanks