قادیانیت اور موجودہ قادیانی

[RAKPK]

یہ بہت بڑی غلط فہمی ہے کہ صحابہ اکرام رضی اللہ نے گستاخ رسول کو ہمیشہ ہی قتل کروا دیا بلکہ اس قسم کے واقعات صحابہ کی تاریخ میں بہت کم ملتے ہیں۔ میری حقیر رائے میں گستاخ رسول کو جہنم واصل کرنا غیرت کا تقاضہ ضرور ہے لیکن شرعی طور پر ثابت نہیں ہوتا۔ حضرت خالد بن ولید نے جب مالک بن نویرہ کو گستاخِ رسول کی حیثت سے قتل کیا تو تاریخ گواہ ہے کہ خالد بن ولید جیسے جلیل القدر صھابی اور سپہ سالار اعظم کو جوابدہی کرنی پڑی اور حضرت ابوبکر رضی اللہ کو خالد بن ولید رضی اللہ کے لیے خون بہا ادا کرنا پڑا۔ اس مسئلہ میں بڑی عرق ریزی کے ساتھ قانون سازی کی ضرورت ہے اگر ہم ایک بھنگی، جاہل اور ان پڑھ انسان کو گستاخی کی سزا دیں گے تو میری حقیر رائے میں آپ آقاﷺ کی شان بڑھانے کی بجائے خود لوگوں کو موقع دیں گے کے باتیں بنیں۔ اس کے بجائے جاہلوں کو آقاﷺ کی شان کی حقیقت بتانی چاہیے۔ ہم لوگوں کے ساتھ مسئلہ یہ ہے کے ہم نے اسلام کو اُن لوگوں کے حوالے کر دیا ہے جو خود کم علم ہیں اس وجہ سے وہ دلیل سے بات کرنے کے لیے تیار ہی نہیں۔ حقیقت یہ ہے کہ توہین رسالت ہر صورت میں موت کی سزا دینے کا آغاز اسپین کے مسلم حکمرانوں نے کیا تھا اور یہ ایک ایسی سازش تھی کہ جس کے بعد اسپین میں اسلام پھل پھول نہ سکا۔ میرا یہ خیال نہیں کہ توہین رسالت کوئی جُرم نہیں اور اس کی سزا نہ دی جائے لیکین یہ ضرور دیکھ لیا جائے کہ سزا کس کو دی جا رہی ہے

So if a bhangi, charsi, illiterate guy kills a person or rapes a woman, the law court is going to acquit him?

You guys become very sympathetic when it's about blasphemy.

Blasphemy laws are not implemented because Muslims like to see people hanged or thrown in prisons. They are used as deterrence to deter people from committing it. They are for any future or potential blasphemers to take as exemplary.

 

[RAKPK]

حمزاہ علی عباسی اگر کسی سازش کا حصہ ہے تو ہمارا فرض ہے کے وحشت کی بجائے دلائل سے اس سازش کو فرو کریں۔

What else do you think we are doing? Pelting stones at his car or house?

 

[RAKPK]

جہاں تک میں اسلام کو سمجھا ہوں اسلام دنیا میں عدل و انصاف اور اللہ تعالیٰ کی واحدانیت کا تقاضہ کرتا ہے۔

At the same time Islam curbs fitnah / mischief as it's more severe than murder.

 

[RAKPK]

That's all great but with one issue, Homosexuality is not "Followed". It is not a religion. Neither is TTP a religion or MQM a religion. The success of Qadiyanis is not in being established, but in actually making every Muslim Pakistani a non-muslim. Someone mentioned here that Qadiyanis consider ALL orthodox muslims as Non-Muslims. If you think about it, the current Pakistani Islamic Shahada is nothing like the Shariah compliant Shahada for being a Muslim. Therefore if the Shahada is different, the Muslim is different. We all Orthodox Muslims of Pakistan are Not "Muslims", we are all "Pakistani Muslims". And the stupid awaam of Pakistan thinks they've scored a victory over the Qadiyanis, when in fact they've dug their own graves by thinking that they've ousted the Qadiyanis from the umbrella of Islam. When in actual fact they've ousted themselves as well.

This is the Pakistani Shahada. If you cannot proclaim this Shahada you will NOT be a Muslim.

While the Original Shariah Compliant Shahada is:

Use your head. This application form doesn't say 'Shahadah', it's just a declaration to distinguish Muslims from Qadiyanis.

And Homosexuality is a belief system that some people are born as homos, religion is also a belief system that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian is a Promised Messiah of Qadianis.

 

[RAKPK]

I think the Qadiyanis dodge this by segregating Prophets as Law Bringers and minors. Therefore, it is easy to declare prophets even after Muhammad(saw) according to their belief system. So in my understanding and I could be wrong, is that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is a "mini-Prophet" of sorts. lol.

In any case, Even if Qadiyanis are out of the fold of Islam, they are a religion in their own right. And calling someone's religion's central tenet a Liar is Blasphemy according to Pakistani constitution. You cannot for example even say anything bad about the Hindu Gods in Pakistan. Because the Anti Blasphemy Laws protect them as well. But like I demonstrated, there are huge double standards of the applicability of these laws on Minority religion in Pakistan.

You're right, we need to work more on our Constitution and we may think of adding these words to the Constitution that any claimant of Prophethood after Prophet Muhammad pbuh will be termed to as a 'Kaddab / Liar'.

 

[crankthskunk]

تو اپنا پتا دے ابن کھوتی میں تجھے انگلینڈ آکر پکڑوں گا ابے او پنڈت اشرفی کے ٹائم پاس ، فوٹو دوبارہ مت دکھانا تیرا گٹر کے ڈھکن جتنا منہ ہزاروں میگا بائٹس لے لے گا

Khote se bad tar maqlooq, zara himat he tu apna Thobra aur naam tu bata, deekhta hoon teri hammat. Mujh se milna he tu aja, me Croydon, Surrey me rahta hoon. chaal shabash jaab yaha ajee tu phir ais forum pe message kar deena , tu jaha ayeega me aak milonga tujh se deekhta ho tujh jise Buzdil kia okhar sakte hain mer. Idiot.

 

[RAKPK]

Brother do you know the one of the biggest obstacle meccans have to accept Prophet Muhammad pbuh , They used to say How can we change the religion of our forefathers ? They had the same view that their forefathers cant be wrong . Similarly our muslim brothers often present this argument that all the ulema have used the same meaning of Khatme Nabbuwatt.

You are giving example of beliefs of the people of Makkah and comparing it with a terminology that Muslims have used throughout history. 1300 years they used a terminology and in 1989 a Qadiani from Punjab says that 'Khatam-al-Anbia' means something else?

It is actually the present generation of Qadianis which doesn't do research but following its forefathers blindly.

For us Hazrat Isa (as)'s issue is very important as it all depends on the death of him. If he is still alive and will come back again then we are wrong as we consider Mirza sahib the same Imam mahdi and Messiah which was prophesied by Prophet Muhammad himself and was declared a nabi . You have right to reject Mirza sahib saying he is not the person you are waiting but you cant simply walk away saying no more prophet can come while waiting yourself for one ?

Where in Quran does Allah say He SWT will send more Rasools or Nabis?

I am an ordinary person like every one else here who has a family ,works , like cricket etc etc . I am not a missionary of Ahmadis so may be i have not all accurate info. I will appreciate if you help me understand your concept of Imam Mahdi & Hazrat Isa (as) as you just mentioned above that the mess muslims are in ,could be sorted out by Islahkars but then what was the reason for Hazrat Isa (as) to be taken alive (according to your belief ) and he is waiting for 2000 years to come back if all the problems could have been sorted out by some Islahkars. poor Christians did not get a chance to learn from jesus as he was taken to skies to save muslims at the end . His own people lost the right path and now he will come back to sort out muslims's issue which could have been easily sorted out by some islahkars .

Your 'Islahkar' (reformer) came in 1935 but he couldn't save people from the persecutions of the British Raj and now there's no 'Islahkar' to save Qadianis from the persecutions of Pakistanis, so what are you going to say?

Lastly , please help me to understand who will appoint Imam Mahdi ? Which sect he will be from ? As my understanding is every sect is waiting for him so they will only accept him if he is from their sect . Mohtarma Tahir ul qadri is trying his best to ne Mujaddid of this century and you have seen how others sects have treated him and i believe he has been also declared kafir by same Ulema who have given this honour to us

Sunnis and Shias both agree that their Imam Mahdi will not be a Punjabi from Qadian and they also agree that he won't give prophecies that will go wrong and he will not die of Cholera/Dysentery/Diarrhea.

 

[lurker]

Use your head. This application form doesn't say 'Shahadah', it's just a declaration to distinguish Muslims from Qadiyanis.

And Homosexuality is a belief system that some people are born as homos, religion is also a belief system that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian is a Promised Messiah of Qadianis.

Its not just a declaration . If you do not agree with this declaration you will not be a Muslim in the state of Pakistan. That is blasphemy of the highest order. Effectively, what the state of Pakistan has done is create a new Shahada. I am no qadiyani but i refuse to be accepted as a muslim on any other shahada than the original shariat shahada.

As for homosexuality, it is not a belief system. Perhaps some people believe that a homosexual gene exists or evidence points to one. Sexual identity is a complex process.

 

[I Love Muhammad (PBUH)]

Your 'Islahkar' (reformer) came in 1935 but he couldn't save people from the persecutions of the British Raj and now there's no 'Islahkar' to save Qadianis from the persecutions of Pakistanis, so what are you going to say?

Mt friend I dont involve in useless discussions and disrespectful arguments . You are keep doing this which does not give a decent image of you . Since you have quoted this argument nearly 10 times , please allow me to answer you in same tone

Hazrat Isa (as) came and tried to spread his message but was furiously persecuted by jews , his followers were not more than 20 and 1 of them informed about the where about of Jesus Christ hence jews mange to catch him and tortured him . Now lets take your yard stick and tell me Was he a true messenger who could not even save himself from persecution let alone the people of his time . Do you know how many christians were slaughtered , burnt alive and killed in the name of religion so according to you Hazrat Isa (as) was a false prophet .(nauzubillah)

Now lets come to Prophet Muhammad pbuh . He is the one for whom whole world was created , He came to save the whole world but could not even save his second and third Khalifa from being killed . Forget about others His teachings could not save his own son in law and grandchildren from being persecuted and killed in most barbaric ways . on the hands of Prophet Muhammad pbuh ) islam is completed and his shariat is the last but his teachings could not save thousands of sahabis being killed in the war between Hazrat Ali (ra) and Hazrat Aysha (ra) and muslim history is full of such incidents where hundreds of thousands muslims were killed by muslims let alone by non muslims so Mr Islamic scholar what do you say ? who is to blame for the killing of 3 khulafa and thousands of sahabis ?

Next time before you open your mouth its better to think what are you are going to say and never again present this argument especially in front of jews, christians or hindus . They will rip you apart.

 

[Fazail Mughal]

So if a bhangi, charsi, illiterate guy kills a person or rapes a woman, the law court is going to acquit him?

You guys become very sympathetic when it's about blasphemy.

Blasphemy laws are not implemented because Muslims like to see people hanged or thrown in prisons. They are used as deterrence to deter people from committing it. They are for any future or potential blasphemers to take as exemplary.

Due to a tactical problem in my PC i will reply u later

 

[imtiazahmed]

Hamza's question has a manufacturing defect. He says "Can State declare a community or believers of some specific faith Kafir (non-Muslim)?". The State (or government of Pakistan in reference to subject issue) has never declared Qadiyanis as Kafir. The bill was tabled in the National Assembly, passed unanimously and became the integral act/part of Constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan - and it was not that easy if you go behind passing that bill. There was upheaval, bloodshed. It is the parliament and NOT the government. Mr. Hamza should rephrase his question if he really wants a debate. The State is run by a majority group of parliament and within the powers given to it by the Constitution which defines the powers and limitations of all pillars of the society. Even in Saudi Arabia, the kingdom has declared Qadiyani as Kafir on the advice of its Majlis-e-Shooraa. What is done cannot be undone by any stretch of debate.

 

[Jibran Naeem]

thankyou brother

onlypk nay ye bhe dislike kardiya lol :P boht he aag lagi hoe hai is k andar

 

[Jibran Naeem]

chalo phir 1 mumtaz qadri ka intezar karo.. isay bhi thoak do

ap jan lynay ki batain kartay hou hum nay janain di hain is law ko banwanay k leye about 5000 to 15000 people died to make this law ... ye law boht khoon daykar banwaya hai musalmano nay .... is k khilaf bolna us khun ki touheen hai jo musalmano nay sirf apnay Nabi Pak pbuh ki mohobat mai banwaya hai k koe kazzab ye na keh sakay k wo bhe Nabi hai

 

[Jibran Naeem]

Qadyanion ko Quran ki rooh se kafir diya ho ya nahin, app kaun hein jau decide kerein kis cheez per debate ho sakti hai ya nahin. Iss issue per bilkul debate ho sakti hai. Kiya state ko decide kerna chahye ke kaun muslim ya nahin? Aap state nahin hein. Koi do takay ka insaan pabandi nahin lagaye gaa ke Pakistan mein kis cheez per baat hogi aur kis cheez per nahin. Democracy mein her cheez per baat hoti hai. Aap unko zarroor kafir kahein, State nahin keh sakti.

state power say Hazrat e Abu bakar nay musalima kazzab ko jahannum wasil kiya tha, or us k tamam sathiyo ko ... tou islamic state bilkul ye law enforce karskti hai .... or ap k non muslim dostoun ko national assembly mai bulaya gaya tha k apnay ap ko musalman sabit karo tou wo nakam rahay thay apnay ap ko sabit karnay mai ....infact in logo nay kaha k hum apnay elawa sub ko kafir samjhtay hain [hilar]..... pehlay issue k baray mai research tou karlo ..is pay debate hou chuki hai ap k dost apnay ap ko musalman he sabit nahe kar paey or ap yahan hum say behas kar rahay hou

 

[Jibran Naeem]

یہ بہت بڑی غلط فہمی ہے کہ صحابہ اکرام رضی اللہ نے گستاخ رسول کو ہمیشہ ہی قتل کروا دیا بلکہ اس قسم کے واقعات صحابہ کی تاریخ میں بہت کم ملتے ہیں۔ میری حقیر رائے میں گستاخ رسول کو جہنم واصل کرنا غیرت کا تقاضہ ضرور ہے لیکن شرعی طور پر ثابت نہیں ہوتا۔ حضرت خالد بن ولید نے جب مالک بن نویرہ کو گستاخِ رسول کی حیثت سے قتل کیا تو تاریخ گواہ ہے کہ خالد بن ولید جیسے جلیل القدر صھابی اور سپہ سالار اعظم کو جوابدہی کرنی پڑی اور حضرت ابوبکر رضی اللہ کو خالد بن ولید رضی اللہ کے لیے خون بہا ادا کرنا پڑا۔ اس مسئلہ میں بڑی عرق ریزی کے ساتھ قانون سازی کی ضرورت ہے اگر ہم ایک بھنگی، جاہل اور ان پڑھ انسان کو گستاخی کی سزا دیں گے تو میری حقیر رائے میں آپ آقاﷺ کی شان بڑھانے کی بجائے خود لوگوں کو موقع دیں گے کے باتیں بنیں۔ اس کے بجائے جاہلوں کو آقاﷺ کی شان کی حقیقت بتانی چاہیے۔ ہم لوگوں کے ساتھ مسئلہ یہ ہے کے ہم نے اسلام کو اُن لوگوں کے حوالے کر دیا ہے جو خود کم علم ہیں اس وجہ سے وہ دلیل سے بات کرنے کے لیے تیار ہی نہیں۔ حقیقت یہ ہے کہ توہین رسالت ہر صورت میں موت کی سزا دینے کا آغاز اسپین کے مسلم حکمرانوں نے کیا تھا اور یہ ایک ایسی سازش تھی کہ جس کے بعد اسپین میں اسلام پھل پھول نہ سکا۔ میرا یہ خیال نہیں کہ توہین رسالت کوئی جُرم نہیں اور اس کی سزا نہ دی جائے لیکین یہ ضرور دیکھ لیا جائے کہ سزا کس کو دی جا رہی ہے

ghustakhi Rasool pbuh ki saza mout hai .. hamaray Pyaray Nabi pbuh nay khud ye saza moutaiyan farmai hai .... is mai kisi sect ka ikhtilaf nahe ... apnay deen ki na taleem hasil ki hai na ap kisi ak ayat ka bhe sahe matlab bayan karsktay hou ....tou ap ki ya hamza ali abbasi ki raey ki ehmiyat aesi he hai jaisay pakistan studies k teacher ki advance physics k baray mai raey hou .... pehlay ap deen seekho us mai dykho kitnay ulma hain jinhounay ghustakh ki saza mout rakhi hai .... dosri bat ghustakh ki saza Quran say bhe mout he sabit hai ,,, teesri bat Nabi Pak pbuh ko haq hasil tha k kisi ghustakh ko maaf kardain magar kisi or ko ye haq hasil nahe .... or ghustakh ko jis nay bhe qatal kiya hai us ko kabhe islami tareekh mai saza nahe mili

 

[Jibran Naeem]

حمزاہ علی عباسی اگر کسی سازش کا حصہ ہے تو ہمارا فرض ہے کے وحشت کی بجائے دلائل سے اس سازش کو فرو کریں۔

dalail he diye hain ... kisi nay attack thori kiya hai us pay

 

[Sohraab]

onlypk nay ye bhe dislike kardiya lol :P boht he aag lagi hoe hai is k andar

Yeh darasal aik Boot paalshiyaa hai aur is k pichware main lagne wali sari aag ki wajha bhi boot hain , Is k bohut se ID hain , yeh in 2 members main se aik hai , alimohsan52 , abdlsy

 

[lurker]

That sir again is transgression against the Constitution of Pakistan which promises free practice of Religion. Sikhism was established much later than islam. Are their Prophets and Religious figures Kazzabs? They maybe in your view, but not to theirs. And calling them such is again a Blasphemous act according to the Constitution of Pakistan. People can create religion out of thin air, its no problem at all. People can create Prophets and Gods any day and age. Who is anybody to stop them from practicing what they believe in?

Like I said, I am not a Qadiyani or Ahmedi or whatever they are, but I am a patron of the Law and what is just. And currently the Constitution is not Just with Muslims OR Qadiyanis. And if you want to beat the Qadiyani "Scourge" then you have to beat them at their game.

You're right, we need to work more on our Constitution and we may think of adding these words to the Constitution that any claimant of Prophethood after Prophet Muhammad pbuh will be termed to as a 'Kaddab / Liar'.

 

[lurker]

ghustakhi Rasool pbuh ki saza mout hai ..

Theek hai. Phir Le aao Rasool(Saw) ko saza dene ke liye. Faisala bhi wohi (saw) hi kerain ge ke unko Ghustakhi lagi ke nahi. Aur jo yeh kaam Rasool(saw) ke liye aaj kare ga woh bhi Ghustakhi se kam nahi. ;)

 

[Reason]

That true liberal political party's head will meet Salman Taseer in, you know what I mean. It's not a threat, it's reality.

Hahaha. And then beg for mercy from the President like a coward. No violent movement has succeeded. It is absolutely a threat, but its not going to work. But nice try though.