قادیانیت اور موجودہ قادیانی

[lurker]

I think the Qadiyanis dodge this by segregating Prophets as Law Bringers and minors. Therefore, it is easy to declare prophets even after Muhammad(saw) according to their belief system. So in my understanding and I could be wrong, is that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is a "mini-Prophet" of sorts. lol.

In any case, Even if Qadiyanis are out of the fold of Islam, they are a religion in their own right. And calling someone's religion's central tenet a Liar is Blasphemy according to Pakistani constitution. You cannot for example even say anything bad about the Hindu Gods in Pakistan. Because the Anti Blasphemy Laws protect them as well. But like I demonstrated, there are huge double standards of the applicability of these laws on Minority religion in Pakistan.

Brother we r not declaring any body "kazab" nor constitution of Pakistan declaring him. Its a principle that any one who claims him self prophet after Mohammad ﷺ is a '' kazab".
ؓ

 

[I Love Muhammad (PBUH)]

برادرِ من محمدﷺ کے بعد اگر کوئی نبوت کا دعویٰ کرے تو اس کے لیے جو الفاظ میں نے استعمال کیے ہیں وہ ماضی قریب اور ماضی بعید کے تمام علماء نے استعمال کیے ہیں تفہیم القران میں مولانا ابواعلی مودودی صاحب کی بھی یہی رائے ہے(واضح ہوکہ میرا جماعت سے کوئی تعلق نہیں)اس کے علاوہ بھی تمام مسالک کے علماء یہی الفاظ استعمال کرتے ہیں۔ اس کا مطلب نبوت پر نہیں بلکہ دعوی دار سے ہے لیکن پھر بھی میں ان الفاظ کے استعمال پر معذرت خواہ ہوں۔ جہاں تک حضرت عیسیٰؑ کے دوبارہ نزول کا تعلق ہے اس بارے میں مختلف افراد کے مختلف خیالات ہیں اس بحث میں پڑنا فل وقت دانش مندی نہ ہو گا۔ اگر مسلمان اپنے اصل دین سے دور ہو رہے ہیں تو اس کے لیے کسی پیغمیر کی نہیں بلکہ اصلاح کار کی ضرورت ہے جو بہت سے آج بھی موجود ہیں اور ماضی میں بھی تھے۔ ہمارے ساتھ حادثہ یہ ہے کہ ہم نے اسلام کو ملّا کے حوالے کر دیا ہے جہاں تک میں اسلام کو سمجھا ہوں اسلام دنیا میں عدل و انصاف اور اللہ تعالیٰ کی واحدانیت کا تقاضہ کرتا ہے۔

Thanks for your posts which are very pleasant to read .

Brother do you know the one of the biggest obstacle meccans have to accept Prophet Muhammad pbuh , They used to say How can we change the religion of our forefathers ? They had the same view that their forefathers cant be wrong . Similarly our muslim brothers often present this argument that all the ulema have used the same meaning of Khatme Nabbuwatt.

For us Hazrat Isa (as)'s issue is very important as it all depends on the death of him. If he is still alive and will come back again then we are wrong as we consider Mirza sahib the same Imam mahdi and Messiah which was prophesied by Prophet Muhammad himself and was declared a nabi . You have right to reject Mirza sahib saying he is not the person you are waiting but you cant simply walk away saying no more prophet can come while waiting yourself for one ?

I am an ordinary person like every one else here who has a family ,works , like cricket etc etc . I am not a missionary of Ahmadis so may be i have not all accurate info. I will appreciate if you help me understand your concept of Imam Mahdi & Hazrat Isa (as) as you just mentioned above that the mess muslims are in ,could be sorted out by Islahkars but then what was the reason for Hazrat Isa (as) to be taken alive (according to your belief ) and he is waiting for 2000 years to come back if all the problems could have been sorted out by some Islahkars. poor Christians did not get a chance to learn from jesus as he was taken to skies to save muslims at the end . His own people lost the right path and now he will come back to sort out muslims's issue which could have been easily sorted out by some islahkars .

Lastly , please help me to understand who will appoint Imam Mahdi ? Which sect he will be from ? As my understanding is every sect is waiting for him so they will only accept him if he is from their sect . Mohtarma Tahir ul qadri is trying his best to ne Mujaddid of this century and you have seen how others sects have treated him and i believe he has been also declared kafir by same Ulema who have given this honour to us

 

[Abdul Allah]

لیکن میں تجھے کھوتی ہی کہوں گا ناکام بلاگر کیونکہ تیرا منہ ہی ایسا ہے ، باقی اگر تو کسی کے لیڈر کو کذاب کہہ سکتا ہے تو تیرے باپ کو گدھا بھی کہہ سکتے ہیں اور ماں کو کھوتی ، ہے نہ ؟ اسلئے چل اب اپنے پوتڑے اٹھا کر چلتا بن ، تجھے کوی نہیں پڑھنے والا

That so called Leader calls others as "***** Ki Ulaad" so his follower should not react on calling him just as "Jhoota"

 

[Abdul Allah]

اس عرصے میں معاشرے میں اتنا زہر گھول دیا گیا ہے کہ لوگ عموماً احمدیوں سے لین دین کرنا بھی پسند نہیں کرتے۔ ایک چھوٹی سی مثال یہ ہے کہ آج نواز شریف کی حکومت پانامہ لیکس ایشو کو ڈیلے کیوں کر رہی ہے؟ صرف اس لئے کہ جیسے جیسے وقت گزرے گا یہ عوام کے ذہنوں کو پانامہ لیکس کے ایشو پر منتشر کر دیں گے۔ یہی حال اسمبلی کی رپورٹ کا ہوا۔ جیسے جیسے وقت گزر جائے لوگ ایک ایشو کو آہستہ آہستہ بھول جاتے ہیں اور پھر 30 سال کا عرصے میں تو بچہ پیدا ہو کر بچوں کا باپ بن جاتا ہے۔ آخری بات یہ ہے کہ میرا تو یہی برادرانہ مشورہ ہے کہ اگر ممکن ہو تو آپ ایک بار اس رپورٹ پر نظر ضرور دوڑائیں۔ سب سے آسان طریقہ ہے احمدیوں کی حقیقت جاننے کا اور پھر یہ کہ وہ رپورٹ احمدیوں کی طرف سے نہیں بلکہ قومی اسمبلی کی طرف سے ہے۔ اس میں دونوں اطراف کے علماء کے قوی دلائل موجود ہیں اس کے علاوہ بھی بہت سے تلخ حقائق ہیں۔ وہ رپورٹ صرف پڑھنے سے تعلق رکھتی ہے اس پر بات چیت کرنے سے حقیقی مقصد حاصل نہیں ہو سکتا۔ کیونکہ حقیقی علم وہی ہوتا ہے جس کی انسان خود جستجو کرے۔ جیسے حدیث ہے کہ :سنی سنائی بات خود دیکھنے کی طرح نہیں ہوتی: بات یہ ہے کہ یہ تو ایک بحث کا سلسلہ چل پڑا ہے اس تھریڈ کے ذریعے ورنہ اس موضوع پر کون بات کر سکتا ہے۔

How many books of Mirza Ghulaam Ahmad you have read??

 

[Babatank]

@abdul Allah and Crank with their same old and lame allegations....(yapping)(yapping)(yapping) while you guys are playing barefoot online warriors Ahmadiyya community is spreading the PEACEFUL MESSAGEOF THE HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD saw. We don't care what you and people like you say ;)

 

[Abdul Allah]

Thanks for your compassion . You are absolutely right to say that no one has any authority to go against the teachings of Quran and even if a hadith is going against Quran its better to leave hadith as it may be daeef ,

Now why i have quoted these exerts from different ulema because i am hearing this again and again that Its only Ahmadis who take this meaning of khatme Nabuwatt. every one comes here and give a fatwa that no one in muslims history has said any thing like this. I have full faith in Quran and consider it enough for me . But when people say these things so i had to present these quotes so they know what is reality as their local molvi sahib wont tell them .


As far as Hazrat Isa (as) is concerned , you just said you only rely on Quran and hadith , i request you to please quote one verse where Allah has said that ISA (as) is alive . forget every other thing . If you bring evidence from Quarn that Isa (as) is alive , I will accept it

Lastly , Please make me understand that from where you take this meaning that Kahtamun nabiyyin means that no new prophet can come but old prophet can come.Any proof from Quarn or hadith will be really appreciated .

Jazakallah

I may not be able to answer your posts today but will come back to you tomorrow , so dont think i have run away . I am always willing to listen to others .

Khatim Means Last

if i show it from your books what will be your reaction??

 

[I Love Muhammad (PBUH)]

Khatim Means Last

if i show it from your books what will be your reaction??

Khatim means last , after considering prophet the last prophet if I show you your ulema still wait for Hazrat isa (as) and will accept him as a prophet then what will be your reaction ?

 

[Believer12]

Chaal Beghairta, meri tu Picture bhi hai aur Naam bhi. Tere be thasha Qadianis mujhe UK me jante bhi hain tu Sue kion nahi karte Mirza ko Liar Kazzab kahene per.
Kadi appni bothi vi veekha sanu, be nam, be shakil idiot.

تو اپنا پتا دے ابن کھوتی میں تجھے انگلینڈ آکر پکڑوں گا ابے او پنڈت اشرفی کے ٹائم پاس ، فوٹو دوبارہ مت دکھانا تیرا گٹر کے ڈھکن جتنا منہ ہزاروں میگا بائٹس لے لے گا

 

[Abdul Allah]

My dear Scholars of Islam , i am going to present some quotes here from the Muslim Scholars from past and see what is the meaning of Khatme Nabuwatt . And if you dare then please feel free to call them Non Muslim, Kafir and Murtad .


The well knownMujaddid Alfe Saani, Hazrat Shaikh Ahmad Farooqi Sarhindi, in his Makoobat (vol. 1 Maktoob301 pg. 432) states: Following the advent of the Khatmur-Rosul, Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa(peace and blessings of Allah be on him), the attainment of prophethood by one of his followers, asa subordinate and in service of the Holy Prophet, will in no way offend or be in conflict with hisstatus as Khaatamur-Rosul. No doubts need be entertained in this regard.


Again, the sixth Shiite Imam, Hazrat Jaffar Sadiq, in his book Al-Saafi Sharah Osoolul Kaafi (vol.III, page 119) referring to the divine gift of Prophethood and lmamat in the progeny of Hazratlbrahim (peace be on him) and commenting on the Quranic verse Surely, we gave to the childrenof Abraham the book and wisdom and we gave them a great kingdom. Allah raised prophets,messengers and imams from the progeny of Hazrat lbrahim (peace be on him). It is thereforesurprising that while acknowledging these blessings among the progeny of Hazrat lbrahim (peacebe on him), people tend to deny this possibility in the case of the progeny and the followers ofHazrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him).


We have the following couplet from Maulana Rum, one of the chief saints of Muslim Ummah. FirKun Rah Naeko Khidmate Ta Nabbuwat Yaabi Undar Ummate. Meaning, Exert yourself in theservice of faith to such an extent that you be granted prophethood within the Muslim Ummah.(Masnani Maulana Rum vol. 5, pg. 42).


Hazrat Shah Waliullah Mohaddes Dehlavi, universally acknowledged as the Mujaddid (reformer)of the 12th century and very well known and regarded by the Muslims of the sub-continent andabout whom the white paper speaks highly, writes: The end of prophethood with the HolyProphet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) only means that there can be no law bearingprophet or a prophet from outside the Ummah. (Alkhair Alkatheer pg. 111)


Renowned Sufi Hazrat AbuAbdullah Muhammad Bin Ali Hussain Al-Hakeem Al-Tirmizi (died 308 A-H.) writes: The notionthat the term Khatamun-Nabbiyeen signifies that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allahbe on him) was the last prophet is erroneous. What glory and majesty is there in being the last?What wisdom underlies this interpretation? It is an interpretation put forth by the imbeciles and theilliterates. (Khatam-Alauliya pg. 341).


So lets declare them kafir first so i can present some more recent ulema's statements. The truth of the mater is that people have no knowledge , all they hear from Molvi hazrat who just simply twist and turn the facts . They keep saying that Muhammad is the last prophet and no one will come after him but when you ask him what about Hazrat Isa (as) then they say yes he will come . Really

For you words of Muhammad SW is important or from any other person ??

When He SW said La Nabi Baada Then no need to investigate words of others

And Khatim means Last

 

[Babatank]

For you words of Muhammad SW is important or from any other person ??

When He SW said La Nabi Baada Then no need to investigate words of others

And Khatim means Last

Yaar you dont get it... WE AHMADI BELIEVES THAT MUHAMMAD saw is the LAST LAWBEARING PROPHET... SOWHAT?
Khatim means LAST? oh ok what about this? LAST TASBIH? loool rehn de yaar

 

[Abdul Allah]

Khatim means last , after considering prophet the last prophet if I show you your ulema still wait for Hazrat (as) and will accept him as a prophet then what will be your reaction ?

I accept Hazrat ESA AS is a prophet even today before he came back.

Hazrat Esa AS is already prophet he will not get prophethood as he is already a prophet

So I will not show any reaction.

Khatim means last isnt it ??

 

[Abdul Allah]

Yaar you dont get it... WE AHMADI BELIEVES THAT MUHAMMAD saw is the LAST LAWBEARING PROPHET... SOWHAT?
Khatim means LAST? oh ok what about this? LAST TASBIH? loool rehn de yaar

This Tag of "Khatim Tasbih" is given from God or prophet??

and did it said La Tasbih bada ??

Wakai Rahnay day

 

[Babatank]

This Tag of "Khatim Tasbih" is given from God or prophet??

and did it said La Tasbih bada ??

Wakai Rahnay day

Loool... run dude run YOU SAID KHATIM MEANS LAST

 

[Babatank]

Your religious knowledge is limited... so please don't talk about things you are not good in it... warna loog mazaak karein geyN

 

[Abdul Allah]

Loool... run dude run YOU SAID KHATIM MEANS LAST

Yes Khatim Means Last

Dont you agree ??

Khatim means Last or not ?? Tel me ?? Yes or No

 

[Faizansaqib]

جناب میں نے مولوی کے اقوال کا کہیں بھی حوالہ نہیں دیا قادیانیوں کے بارے میں قرآن و سنت سے جو ہے وہ بیان کیا ہے

ہا ہا ہا ہا او بھائی قرآن و سنت کے یہ حوالہ جات بھی تو آپ نے مولویوں سے ہی سیکھے ہیں ناں
اگر ایسا نہ ہوتا تو آپکو پتہ ہوتا کہ قرآن نے تو سب سے بڑا اور خدا تعالی کے غضب کو بھڑکانے والا گناہ شرک کو قرار دیا ہے۔ اور فرمایا ہے کہ یہ ایسی قبیح بات ہے کہ زمین و آسمان پھٹ جائیں اس بات سے۔ اور خدا کے رسول ﷺ نے فرمایا ہے کہ خدا کے سوا سجدہ کسی کو جائز نہیں اگر ہوتا تو میں بیوی کو حکم دیتا کہ اپنے شوہر کو سجدہ کرے۔ تو موصوف فرماویں کہ کیا اس فرمان الہی اور ارشاد رسول کے سب سے بڑے مورد تمام وہ خواتین و حضرات نہیں جو قبور کو جا جا کے سجدے کرتے ہیں اور پیروں کو سجدے کرتے ہیں ؟؟؟ اگر نہیں تو کیوں نہیں اور اگر ہیں تو سب سے پہلے انہیں آپ کیوں کافر قرار نہیں دیتے؟؟؟

 

[Babatank]

Yes Khatim Means Last

Dont you agree ??
Khatim means Last or not ?? Tel me ?? Yes or No

not necessarily

 

[Abdul Allah]

not necessarily

Yas or no ??

Answer it Yes or no

if you need to add something in it you may add but

First answer it in Yes or No

 

[I Love Muhammad (PBUH)]

I accept Hazrat ESA AS is a prophet even today before he came back.

Hazrat Esa AS is already prophet he will not get prophethood as he is already a prophet

So I will not show any reaction.

Khatim means last isnt it ??[/QUOTE

what is the fazeelat in being just last when you have to wait for a prophet from another ummah to sort out your issues . On one side pur Deen is complete , sharia is complete then why Hazrat isa ( as) has to come .


please answer me if you can,

there te was a King named Akber ,during a trip to an other country he lost his way and did not return . After waiting years another King was made named Amir . But after the death of Amir , Akber some how came back and became King again so what will historian write who was the last king who ruled that country ?

 

[yahoo2002]

Thanks for your posts which are very pleasant to read .

Brother do you know the one of the biggest obstacle meccans have to accept Prophet Muhammad pbuh , They used to say How can we change the religion of our forefathers ? They had the same view that their forefathers cant be wrong . Similarly our muslim brothers often present this argument that all the ulema have used the same meaning of Khatme Nabbuwatt.

For us Hazrat Isa (as)'s issue is very important as it all depends on the death of him. If he is still alive and will come back again then we are wrong as we consider Mirza sahib the same Imam mahdi and Messiah which was prophesied by Prophet Muhammad himself and was declared a nabi . You have right to reject Mirza sahib saying he is not the person you are waiting but you cant simply walk away saying no more prophet can come while waiting yourself for one ?

I am an ordinary person like every one else here who has a family ,works , like cricket etc etc . I am not a missionary of Ahmadis so may be i have not all accurate info. I will appreciate if you help me understand your concept of Imam Mahdi & Hazrat Isa (as) as you just mentioned above that the mess muslims are in ,could be sorted out by Islahkars but then what was the reason for Hazrat Isa (as) to be taken alive (according to your belief ) and he is waiting for 2000 years to come back if all the problems could have been sorted out by some Islahkars. poor Christians did not get a chance to learn from jesus as he was taken to skies to save muslims at the end . His own people lost the right path and now he will come back to sort out muslims's issue which could have been easily sorted out by some islahkars .

Lastly , please help me to understand who will appoint Imam Mahdi ? Which sect he will be from ? As my understanding is every sect is waiting for him so they will only accept him if he is from their sect . Mohtarma Tahir ul qadri is trying his best to ne Mujaddid of this century and you have seen how others sects have treated him and i believe he has been also declared kafir by same Ulema who have given this honour to us

* Meccans were pagans and the biggest trouble a pagan has is to grasp the concept of one God and leave shirk. As for leaving the ways of forefathers, it is a difficult thing to do for all ppl of all times. You are also probably a 3-4th generation Qadiani and i am sure its difficult for you to part ways with your belief system as well.
Nevertheless in order to convince thinking men, its better to speak with reason and sound references instead of general and blanket statements.

* Issue of finality of Prophet Mohammad (saw) is of fundamental importance in Islamic creed. So lets settle this before discussing Isa(as) Mahdi or dajjal, which are of secondary nature.

From the Quran:
33:40

Sahih International: Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.Yusuf Ali: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.(other popular translations http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=33&verse=40)

Now I know qadianis love to argue the meaning of the "seal of prophets" but I wanted to draw the attention to the first part of this aayah:
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men.......". There is an implied suggestion that the office of prophecy (that is of hereditary nature, especially after Abraham) has come to an end.
Another point to note is that how beautifully this aayah is constructed to include 'messenger' and 'prophets' in the same sentence. Since messenger is subset of prophet, No more prophets implies no more messengers.

From the Ahadeeth:

1)
[FONT=&quot]Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets."
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/61/44
http://sunnah.com/muslim/43/24

2)
"The Hour shall not be established until tribes of my Ummah unite with the idolaters, and until they worship idols. And indeed there shall be thirty imposters in my Ummah,each of them claiming that he is a Prophet. And I am the last of the Prophets, there is no Prophet after me."
http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/33/62
http://sunnah.com/abudawud/37/13


Other members are welcome to add any other reference.





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