International Law Support Hamas use of Indiscriminate Rocket Attacks???

[Vitamin_C]

Two misstatements here. Iran either could've remained under Shah's monarchy or it could've had become a democracy.

It could be a constitutional/parliamentary monarchy. Like some European countries. Jordan is well respected by US and West because they have a responsible parliamentary monarchy.

Apart from the western rhetoric of Iran being an existential threat to Israel, no one has considered Israel being an existential threat to Palestine and had ever considered imposing sanctions on it, that too even after it invaded Iraq in 1981 and Syria as well. It had also fought three wars with Lebanon. Iran has never invaded any neighbouring country.

Invading a country is not the only act of aggression. Iran has backed up its rhetoric by other actions. They attacked and captured Islands from United Arab Emirates. They have been supplying weapons and training to Hezbollah and Hamas both of which directly threaten Israel.

As for Israel being an existantial threat to Palestine, one could argue that Israel is the reason that Palestine exists. Palestinians basically live at the mercy of Israel, they could evict or kill all Palestinians if they wanted to, but they gave them a State however small it is. Arabs who controlled Gaza and West Bank for 20 years never allowed Palestinians to have a State.

Iran did nothing against Israel except issuing statements. Had their nuclear program been so advanced as to have helped Israel in developing one of its own, they would have had it by now and if there was any essence in their statements, Israel would have been a history, long ago.

Irans own program was not as advanced as Israels. Israel got tons of nuclear materials from South Africa and other countries it helped, and they had a sophisticated spy network all over US and Europe. They had an advantage that probably only Soviet Union had in developing nukes so we cant compare to Iran. There were many countries that helped Israel in one way or another and those countries had something to offer but not everything so not all of them their own nuclear programs.

Pakistan got help from Libya, doesnt mean Libya must have more advance program than Pakistan.

The matter is with the definition of terrorism. If a sovereign state's policies become hostile towards another nation, shall it not be dubbed as terrorism? Israel is continuously crying the wolf of Iran and Iraq, but is not stopping at any cost to keep increasing its illegal occupation of Palestine. What do you call it? a responsible state?

They are responsible with everything else but the Palestinian issue is not as black and white as you are trying to protray it as. Its complicated.

ter·ror·ism
/ˈterəˌrizəm/
Learn to pronounce

noun

1. the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
   
   
   
   
   

 

[Vitamin_C]

Dude the point is, hamas are not helping, hamas are just making it worse. Now making false strawmen statements like if Hamas goes away thing will be all peaceful and hunky dory and everybody will sit around a camp fire singing kumbaya is also idiotic. No one EVER said that.

What you lot fail to see is, Hamas willingly or unwillingly is actually helping Israel in its land grab. This whole situation was started by the settlers moving into Sheikh Jarrah. This story caught the worlds attention and as always as a diversion Israelis attacked Al Aqsa. Which didn't have the desired effect and just added on to Israels PR disaster.

Then comes in Hamas with its worthless firecrackers, Israel see the opportunity and cashes in on it. And now NO ONE is talking about Shiekh Jarrah or the settlers kicking out Palestinians from their homes or the attack of Aqsa.

The whole worlds attention is diverted to Gaza now. And believe me the west is sick of Hamas as its rockets and pretty much really don't care about that situation.

Minus Hamas and its lobbying of firecrackers, the focus would still be on Sheikh Jarrah and Al Aqsa and make it very hard for Israel to squirm out of it looking like the good guys.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

It could be a constitutional/parliamentary monarchy. Like some European countries. Jordan is well respected by US and West because they have a responsible parliamentary monarchy.

That is what Iran currently is. A supreme leader, under whom an elected Government runs.

Invading a country is not the only act of aggression. Iran has backed up its rhetoric by other actions. They attacked and captured Islands from United Arab Emirates. They have been supplying weapons and training to Hezbollah and Hamas both of which directly threaten Israel.

Sir, this argument appears weak, if cases of Pakistan and India are also taken into consideration as well as the cases of China and Japan.

What happened in 1948 in Kashmir directly resounds with what you have just mentioned. What happened in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion of 1979, Pakistan was also training Mujahideen at the expense of US. Why US keeps backing the Arab spring is another issue on the same lines. Why they are now purporting efforts to incite another upheaval in middle east by the name of Kurdistan also falls in this purview.

Attacking and disputed territory is something else, rather than attacking an established and recognized territory.

As for Israel being an existantial threat to Palestine, one could argue that Israel is the reason that Palestine exists. Palestinians basically live at the mercy of Israel, they could evict or kill all Palestinians if they wanted to, but they gave them a State however small it is. Arabs who controlled Gaza and West Bank for 20 years never allowed Palestinians to have a State.

Clearly not the case, in the light of history. Please see the 1948-49 wars of Arab League with the Israeli state.

Arab League always supported the establishment of a Palestinian State, in the light of their own right of self determination.

Let me quote something from the cablegram of the Arab League here for your kind reference:

Clause 10 of the Cablegram said:-

10. Now that the Mandate over Palestine has come to an end, leaving no legally constituted authority behind in order to administer law and order in the country and afford the necessary and adequate protection to life and property, the Arab States declare as follows:(a) The right to set up a Government in Palestine pertains to its inhabitants under the principles of self-determination recognized by the Covenant of the League of Nations as well as the United Nations Charter.(b) Peace and order have been completely upset in Palestine, and, in consequence of Jewish aggression, approximately over a quarter of a million of the Arab population have been compelled to leave their homes and emigrate to neighbouring Arab countries.(c) The Mandatory has already announced that on the termination of the Mandate it will no longer be responsible for the maintenance of law and order in Palestine except in the camps and areas actually occupied by its forces, and only to the extent necessary for the security of those forces and their withdrawal.
The Cablegram also declared -

The Arab States recognize that the independence and sovereignty of Palestine which was so far subject to the British Mandate has now, with the termination of the Mandate, become established in fact, and maintain that the lawful inhabitants of Palestine are alone competent and entitled to set up an administration in Palestine for the discharge of all governmental functions without any external interference. As soon as that stage is reached the intervention of the Arab States, which is confined to the restoration of peace and establishment of law and order, shall be put an end to, and the sovereign State of Palestine will be competent in co-operation with the other States members of the Arab League, to take every step for the promotion of the welfare and security of its peoples and territory.

Had there not been incursions by the Arab League and the timely interventions, Israel would have had left no stones unturned in massacring the Palestinians.

Irans own program was not as advanced as Israels. Israel got tons of nuclear materials from South Africa and other countries it helped, and they had a sophisticated spy network all over US and Europe. They had an advantage that probably only Soviet Union had in developing nukes so we cant compare to Iran. There were many countries that helped Israel in one way or another and those countries had something to offer but not everything so not all of them their own nuclear programs.

Thank you for explaining that it was not Iran who helped Israel in building its nukes.

Also, it is a fact that the American Presidents and high officials of Pentagon had been working as spies for Israel in this regard.
So the program of SA was taken away, but no one still bothers to go and check the Israeli WMDs.

Pakistan got help from Libya, doesnt mean Libya must have more advance program than Pakistan.

The idea was to make at least one nuclear power state in the Muslim world. Gaddafi only provided the funds. Our mission was already deployed on the subject in the times of Gen Ayub Khan.

They are responsible with everything else but the Palestinian issue is not as black and white as you are trying to protray it as. Its complicated.

Sorry, though it consumed 22:30 minutes of my time, but the guy either conveniently or deliberately has not discussed the developments after the establishment of the state of Palestine and Israel after 1947.

He is an agnostic, therefore he is only peddling his idea that "it is all because of religion and had there been no religion, there wouldn't have been such an issue". How naive.

The question is still very simple and demands a no-brainer, as to why the Jewish State keeps grabbing the land of the Palestinians even after the declaration of its positions, which were reaffirmed by the 1967 treaty?

To the question of the Israel being responsible with everything, I guess you, like the guy in the video are skipping the incursions of Israel on Iraq, where it bombed down a UN approved nuclear reactor site of energy production. Its skirmishes with Lebanon and Syria. To sum it up, the history of Israel between 1967 to 1984 is being conveniently not being taken into consideration.

ter·ror·ism
/ˈterəˌrizəm/
Learn to pronounce

noun

1. the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

That is what the State of Israel is exactly doing. That is what has been expressly said in the resolution against illegal Israeli settlements by 120 Nations and 14 of the UN Security Council members. But still, everyone is denying to see the elephant in the room. What a bigotry!

 

[Sohail Shuja]

A moment of truth for precise surgical and calculated operations of Israel.

Several children killed as Israel pounds Gaza refugee camp

The UN says 10,000 Palestinians have been forced out of their homes in the Gaza Strip, as the death toll reaches 137.

www.aljazeera.com

They are trying to swivel their use of brute force on civilians with some sort of justification.

 

[desan]

A moment of truth for precise surgical and calculated operations of Israel.

Several children killed as Israel pounds Gaza refugee camp

The UN says 10,000 Palestinians have been forced out of their homes in the Gaza Strip, as the death toll reaches 137.

www.aljazeera.com

They are trying to swivel their use of brute force on civilians with some sort of justification.

They are flattening the ground to prepare for Ethnic Cleansing...

Where are you going to live when there are no streets or homes left???

Gaza has no direct access to outside world to take on the rebuilding efforts.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

They are flattening the ground to prepare for Ethnic Cleansing...

Where are you going to live when there are no streets or homes left???

Gaza has no direct access to outside world to take on the rebuilding efforts.

Leave the buildings.... just think about the innocent lives lost.... can anything in the world make up for that loss?

Its sheer cruelty and absolute barbarism.

I am sure, no one here supporting the Israeli argument has ever seen a single person dying in such pain and helplessness.

 

[desan]

Leave the buildings.... just think about the innocent lives lost.... can anything in the world make up for that loss?

Its sheer cruelty and absolute barbarism.

I am sure, no one here supporting the Israeli argument has ever seen a single person dying in such pain and helplessness.

Pointing towards the intentions of the Rogue State...

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Pointing towards the intentions of the Rogue State...

Sorry, I guess I got carried away.

 

[Vitamin_C]

That is what Iran currently is. A supreme leader, under whom an elected Government runs.

 

[Vitamin_C]

A moment of truth for precise surgical and calculated operations of Israel.

Several children killed as Israel pounds Gaza refugee camp

The UN says 10,000 Palestinians have been forced out of their homes in the Gaza Strip, as the death toll reaches 137.

www.aljazeera.com

They are trying to swivel their use of brute force on civilians with some sort of justification.

Could be. Not saying Israel doesn’t have dirty hands it’s all a game of technicalities.

For example Israel can kill civilians and call it collateral damage of precision strikes targeting militants then it won’t be regarded as terrorism. But if we can prove it that it’s their policy to target civilians then it is terrorism which will mean US will be bound by its own constitution to put sanctions in Israel and to stop sending aid.

Same as nuclear, Israel denies having nukes and if they admit officially that they have nukes then US will have to put sanctions on Israel stop aid by their own laws. I’m pretty sure American intelligence knows Israel has nukes since 60s but they didn’t press on it because if it becomes official then th west would have to put pressure on Israel and stop aid which they don’t want to do - so they are hiding behind technicalities.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Attacking and disputed territory is something else, rather than attacking an established and recognized territory.

Even established territories are not in stone borders keep changing all the time.

I strongly believe that Kurds deserve their own country. They are the largest ethnic group without their own country and it’s a great injustice - they deserve a homeland more than Palestinians.

 

[Vitamin_C]

They are flattening the ground to prepare for Ethnic Cleansing...

Where are you going to live when there are no streets or homes left???

Gaza has no direct access to outside world to take on the rebuilding efforts.

It’s a temporary evacuation from the border areas due to Israeli shelling and fears of a ground assault.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Sir, what is your point? these sort of conspiracy theories are always there. The objective answer to your question in post #21 has been provided.

Otherwise, I can post a hundred such like personal opinions about how our parliamentary system gets rigged by the elites and/or how the Rothschilds and Rockefeller always remain in the Congress.

Besides, the bias in the views becomes much clearer in the light of the emblem they hold up in the video. Ain't that from DaVinci?

 

[desan]

Could be. Not saying Israel doesn’t have dirty hands it’s all a game of technicalities.

For example Israel can kill civilians and call it collateral damage of precision strikes targeting militants then it won’t be regarded as terrorism. But if we can prove it that it’s their policy to target civilians then it is terrorism which will mean US will be bound by its own constitution to put sanctions in Israel and to stop sending aid.

Same as nuclear, Israel denies having nukes and if they admit officially that they have nukes then US will have to put sanctions on Israel stop aid by their own laws. I’m pretty sure American intelligence knows Israel has nukes since 60s but they didn’t press on it because if it becomes official then th west would have to put pressure on Israel and stop aid which they don’t want to do - so they are hiding behind technicalities.

That is exactly what's happening, unless someone is living in a cave...

Here is the "theory of wanting peace" goes out the window!!!

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Even established territories are not in stone borders keep changing all the time.

I strongly believe that Kurds deserve their own country. They are the largest ethnic group without their own country and it’s a great injustice - they deserve a homeland more than Palestinians.

Then in Pakistan, we should also divide ourselves based on ethnicity. Punjab will be two to three countries, Sindh will be two, Baluchistan into two and KPK into as many as they like, plus GB and AJK are something else.

BTW, what is the rationale behind the proposition that every ethnicity should have a different country of its own?

What about the values of social inclusion of the "secular states"?

 

[Sohail Shuja]

It’s a temporary evacuation from the border areas due to Israeli shelling and fears of a ground assault.

عارضی نقل و حمل کا مسئلہ نہیں، مسئلہ ہے پناہ گزینوں کے کیمپ پر گولہ باری کا۔
بہرحال، اس عارضی ہجرت کے بعد ان مکینوں کو اپنے مکان یا تو دیکھنے کو نہیں ملیں گے یا پھر ان کےمالکان بدل چکے ہونگے۔ ​

 

[Vitamin_C]

What about the values of social inclusion of the "secular states"?

Secular States are a modern invention, even in 21st century people are discriminated based on ethnicity, that’s why certain ethnicities and religious groups found it necessary to have their own country. Kurds are suffering at hands of Iraqis, Syrians and Turks. They have gained some autonomy in Syria and Iraq but France and UK were supposed to give them their own state in Sykes Picot agreement.

UK made a mess in Middle East partly due to their distrust of France and partly due to their ambitions to keep countries of Middle East and access to its Indian colonies.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Secular States are a modern invention, even in 21st century people are discriminated based on ethnicity, that’s why certain ethnicities and religious groups found it necessary to have their own country. Kurds are suffering at hands of Iraqis, Syrians and Turks. They have gained some autonomy in Syria and Iraq but France and UK were supposed to give them their own state in Sykes Picot agreement.

UK made a mess in Middle East partly due to their distrust of France and partly due to their ambitions to keep countries of Middle East and access to its Indian colonies.

Let it be a topic of some other day. Right now, we will be diverting from the main topic under discussion, if we go into details of it over here.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

UK made a mess in Middle East partly due to their distrust of France and partly due to their ambitions to keep countries of Middle East and access to its Indian colonies.

It appears a weak argument to me that Britain wanted a route to their Indian colonies and that is why they backstabbed France.

Eventually, after you cross the straits of gibraltar, you actually sail into the French colonies.

Therefore, treating that as another of the self proclaimed controversy, I will shelve it aside. Though, I know there is a ethnic distrust between the Brits and the French and the Germans. Nobody trusts no one.

But our main point of discussion was not that.

You said the established territories are not set in stone. I tend to digress from that view. Internationally defined borders are precise and no other country is allowed to invade the other. However, it frequently keeps happening in Palestine. That is why, even the video you posted of Harris, the changes in the map of Israel from 1947 till date are even acknowledged by him as being true. Why no actions against that?

 

[Vitamin_C]

It appears a weak argument to me that Britain wanted a route to their Indian colonies and that is why they backstabbed France.

Those two are not connected arguments but separate arguments.

Britian made conflicting promise to many parties including French, Palestinians, Israelis and Kurds.

What I mentioned was a laundry list of possible motive(s)