Musharraf could not foresee ??

[RANA Sana'a]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

Little knowledge is dangerous. Majority of these dictators and specially Musharaf borrowed a lot of money from IMF and others. So, yes if you are to only look at that particular period and GDP is the only factor then dictators fare better than democrats (given the data is accurate). However, to provide proper analysis one must also consider the borrowings from the period.

I am not defending democrats but I am really against brutal dictators like Mushy and Zia. To make the analysis even more . try and check some statistics on suicide bombings BEFORE mushy's rule, during and after.

you sound funny .. how much did last gov borrowed ?

 

[Raaz]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

Talban with their spiritual father, Regan.

Look at the historic statement of Regan

 

[abdlsy]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

the stats above shows we majority Pakistanis are corrupt in nature so with military rulers things improve because they give them DUNDA and thats the only thing work with the populations, in other words we need a ruthless KING as a ruler ( example in saudu arabia). Democracy is not for muslims in general as only few of them will follow the human part of our awesome religion and real force and discipline works with us, otherwise availability of too many zardaris, Nooras, altaf mafias etc etc who will suck dry our treasury. We need kick *** no nonsense leaders like kings of saudi arabia, Gen Ayub khan, Gen Mussharuff or who knows allah might send us a true momin sultan salahudiin ayubee for Pakistan. We deserve this because even though Islam promotes honesty fairness, corrupt free humans as Momins, but we have so many fanatics on two extremes, one is too liberal who dont feel ashamed of their haram life and earnings and on other end due to lack of high school, frustrated good for nothing so called quote un quote fraud religious fanatics with misintrepretation of islam or handsomely paid foreign mercenaries the TTP. Things can dramatically change as now we have IK/PTI, educated fresh YOUTH phenomenon and thats our last hope, until allah totally loose hope on us nauzubillah for any human development on this earth as MUSALMANN ( a huge meaning for humanity and a huge responsibility to behave responsibly as a HUMAN). So need to come out fast out of JAANWUR stage before nauzubillah allah na kurae more severe azaabillahee as quran mentiones multiple times for many QOUMS in the past.(bigsmile), for starters lets speaking the truth, nothing but the truth about any topic, can we handle the TRUTH or too lazy to get out of our fake muslim life, we have to decide fast.(bigsmile)

 

[anees1980]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

Those leaders who show tolerance towards other religions doesn't make them part of other religion so stop putting blames on other just for the sake of enjoyment. Infact we as a society need to learn to be tolerant to others.

 

[mrk123]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

Here;

Little knowledge is dangerous. Majority of these dictators and specially Musharaf borrowed a lot of money from IMF and others. So, yes if you are to only look at that particular period and GDP is the only factor then dictators fare better than democrats (given the data is accurate). However, to provide proper analysis one must also consider the borrowings from the period.

I am not defending democrats but I am really against brutal dictators like Mushy and Zia. To make the analysis even more . try and check some statistics on suicide bombings BEFORE mushy's rule, during and after.

@Wadera, thanks for pointing this out. I have tried to do the same on a number of occasions but it seems that the apologists for these dictators always pull out these graphs to show the great economic booms during the times of these dictators.

As you rightly pointed out none of these supposedly better economic periods during the military dictator's rule were not due to the indigenous factors rather reflect the amount of aid that flowed in from the West as a reward to toe their line. During the Ayub era all the economic aid was a return favor for our participation in CENTO and SEATO. During the Zia era the dictator's rule was propped up by a lot of money flowing in from the West and the Gulf countries. Same happened during Musharraf regime. If you pick up the newspapers right after 9/11 and follow the long train of foreign dignitaries (mostly western) that visited Islamabad and dig up the offers of economic aid they offered for our participation on the war on terror then that explains the economic stability. Also, note that during Musharraf era - the mid 2000s the world was witnessing an economic boom fueled by real estate market. We were also able to benefit from that bubble. Since it was all artificially inflated and there were no strong fundamentals to back up those numbers then when the real estate bubble burst the downturn exposed the so called economy on steroids since it was devoid of any concrete foundation.

 

[abdlsy]

the stats above shows we majority Pakistanis are corrupt in nature so with military rulers things improve because they give them DUNDA and thats the only thing work with the populations, in other words we need a ruthless KING as a ruler ( example in saudu arabia). Democracy is not for muslims in general as only few of them will follow the human part of our awesome religion and real force and discipline works with us, otherwise availability of too many zardaris, Nooras, altaf mafias etc etc who will suck dry our treasury. We need kick *** no nonsense leaders like kings of saudi arabia, Gen Ayub khan, Gen Mussharuff or who knows allah might send us a true momin sultan salahudiin ayubee for Pakistan. We deserve this because even though Islam promotes honesty fairness, corrupt free humans as Momins, but we have so many fanatics on two extremes, one is too liberal who dont feel ashamed of their haram life and earnings and on other end due to lack of high school, frustrated good for nothing so called quote un quote fraud religious fanatics with misintrepretation of islam or handsomely paid foreign mercenaries the TTP. Things can dramatically change as now we have IK/PTI, educated fresh YOUTH phenomenon and thats our last hope, until allah totally loose hope on us nauzubillah for any human development on this earth as MUSALMANN ( a huge meaning for humanity and a huge responsibility to behave responsibly as a HUMAN). So need to come out fast out of JAANWUR stage before nauzubillah allah na kurae more severe azaabillahee as quran mentiones multiple times for many QOUMS in the past.(bigsmile), for starters lets speaking the truth, nothing but the truth about any topic, can we handle the TRUTH or too lazy to get out of our fake muslim life, we have to decide fast.(bigsmile)

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

the stats above shows we majority Pakistanis are corrupt in nature so with military rulers things improve because they give them DUNDA and thats the only thing work with the populations, in other words we need a ruthless KING as a ruler ( example in saudu arabia). Democracy is not for muslims in general as only few of them will follow the human part of our awesome religion and real force and discipline works with us, otherwise availability of too many zardaris, Nooras, altaf mafias etc etc who will suck dry our treasury. We need kick *** no nonsense leaders like kings of saudi arabia, Gen Ayub khan, Gen Mussharuff or who knows allah might send us a true momin sultan salahudiin ayubee for Pakistan. We deserve this because even though Islam promotes honesty fairness, corrupt free humans as Momins, but we have so many fanatics on two extremes, one is too liberal who dont feel ashamed of their haram life and earnings and on other end due to lack of high school, frustrated good for nothing so called quote un quote fraud religious fanatics with misintrepretation of islam or handsomely paid foreign mercenaries the TTP. Things can dramatically change as now we have IK/PTI, educated fresh YOUTH phenomenon and thats our last hope, until allah totally loose hope on us nauzubillah for any human development on this earth as MUSALMANN ( a huge meaning for humanity and a huge responsibility to behave responsibly as a HUMAN). So need to come out fast out of JAANWUR stage before nauzubillah allah na kurae more severe azaabillahee as quran mentiones multiple times for many QOUMS in the past.(bigsmile), for starters lets speaking the truth, nothing but the truth about any topic, can we handle the TRUTH or too lazy to get out of our fake muslim life, we have to decide fast.(bigsmile)

you forgot Yehya Khan with wine and songs !!!!!! I guess it was too much to admit.

The way you placed them, The Mongolian will be flipping in their graves.

​

 

[abdlsy]

you forgot Yehya Khan with wine and songs !!!!!! I guess it was too much to admit.

The way you placed them, The Mongolian will be flipping in their graves.

​

accept the truth thats how we are as described, majority of us and the solution is right there in history books, no not Yehya khan no siree, but rest is the honest fact, you like it or not doesent matter:lol:

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

accept the truth thats how we are as described, majority of us and the solution is right there in history books, no not Yehya khan no siree, but rest is the honest fact, you like it or not doesent matter:lol:

From the systematic dictatorship which you describe, wonder what would happens if you get another Yehya Khan in the history of this country ? I am sure it is too embarrassing from the defenders of the tinpot dictators to mention Yehya khan and his rule.

 

[Fursan]

You proved yourself an efficient fool by quoting fabricated numbers which couldn't stand on its own under the nuetral judgment. If that is the criteria of legal and illegal taking over the power, then , the whole world would have adopted the dictatorship and come up with these manifactured figures every time. The sustainibility of any economical environment requires a steady and planned transition of governance under the systematic rule where sudden outrburst of a coup under the darkness of night is not allowed. These mushroom and fabricated economical outburst dissolves like a water bubble as soon as the master is gone. As the saying goes the foolish like to live in their own paradise of virtuality. You are one good hourse who is running alone and waiting for someone's bit. Iam sure many waiting in line for the bitting season. keep up the dismal light of dictatoship alive.

Criticism and misleading approach only comes from low minded persons like you .. nikal ja ..

 

[Fursan]

From the systematic dictatorship which you describe, wonder what would happens if you get another Yehya Khan in the history of this country ? I am sure it is too embarrassing from the defenders of the tinpot dictators to mention Yehya khan and his rule.

Its funny to see that you are stuck in the 1 year black term of Yahya Khan and you dont see the durations of the 3 so-called dictators..

Actually you deserve to rot in the economically destroyed Pakistan where there is inflation, loadshedding, poverty and price hikes gifted by your democracy... (even today petrol prices went up) .. Good Luck..

I am happy for you!!(clap)

 

[Fursan]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

@Wadera, thanks for pointing this out. I have tried to do the same on a number of occasions but it seems that the apologists for these dictators always pull out these graphs to show the great economic booms during the times of these dictators.

As you rightly pointed out none of these supposedly better economic periods during the military dictator's rule were not due to the indigenous factors rather reflect the amount of aid that flowed in from the West as a reward to toe their line. During the Ayub era all the economic aid was a return favor for our participation in CENTO and SEATO. During the Zia era the dictator's rule was propped up by a lot of money flowing in from the West and the Gulf countries. Same happened during Musharraf regime. If you pick up the newspapers right after 9/11 and follow the long train of foreign dignitaries (mostly western) that visited Islamabad and dig up the offers of economic aid they offered for our participation on the war on terror then that explains the economic stability. Also, note that during Musharraf era - the mid 2000s the world was witnessing an economic boom fueled by real estate market. We were also able to benefit from that bubble. Since it was all artificially inflated and there were no strong fundamentals to back up those numbers then when the real estate bubble burst the downturn exposed the so called economy on steroids since it was devoid of any concrete foundation.

Really ??? are these just graphs or you cant see the recent difference during the era of Musharraf and the next PPP era and the present PML-N era ???

Differences speak for themselves but the fact is that you deserve to rot in economically destroyed Pakistan where there is inflation, loadshedding, energy crisis, poverty and price hikes gifted by your so-called democracy...

(even today petrol prices have increased) .. Good Luck.. (clap)

Happy rotting !!

 

[aneeskhan]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

Little knowledge is dangerous. Majority of these dictators and specially Musharaf borrowed a lot of money from IMF and others. So, yes if you are to only look at that particular period and GDP is the only factor then dictators fare better than democrats (given the data is accurate). However, to provide proper analysis one must also consider the borrowings from the period.

I am not defending democrats but I am really against brutal dictators like Mushy and Zia. To make the analysis even more . try and check some statistics on suicide bombings BEFORE mushy's rule, during and after.

Yaani Aap ki Mantak ke Mutabik
Pakistanion Ki MC -BC karney Waley
Zardari ,Nawaz aur Yayha kiu Hakoomat Behta thi?
For your kind information Musharraf Govt Burrowed the least from IMF after 2004 not a single penny
And Pakistan was considered Happy and Prosperous
But your Musharraf dushmani is making Zardari Nawaz Most competent and Imandar.

 

[aneeskhan]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

Anjuman e Jahilan e Pakistan ka Kehna "Musharraf Andhi dusmani mein Facts and figures ko Jhutlla Do"

 

[abdlsy]

From the systematic dictatorship which you describe, wonder what would happens if you get another Yehya Khan in the history of this country ? I am sure it is too embarrassing from the defenders of the tinpot dictators to mention Yehya khan and his rule.

you are dead end to discuss anything

 

[mrk123]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

Really ??? are these just graphs or you cant see the recent difference during the era of Musharraf and the next PPP era and the present PML-N era ???

Differences speak for themselves but the fact is that you deserve to rot in economically destroyed Pakistan where there is inflation, loadshedding, energy crisis, poverty and price hikes gifted by your so-called democracy...

(even today petrol prices have increased) .. Good Luck.. (clap)

Happy rotting !!

Yes, really.

I don't want to say too much about this graph. It seems flawed to me since it claims that each bar represents a year and then for every year during a particular government's era the growth rate is the same. Mind boggling really if you ask me. If you really want to look at some real data then check out the actual GDP growth rate numbers:

It seems to me that you didn't read my post. The jumps in the graph you presented are obvious and it seems that its purposefully doctored to have the dramatic effect to the maximum to prove a point that military dictatorships are better than the civilian governments in Pakistan. Devil is always in the detail! This graph doesn't provide you the whole story. You are free to take the graph you presented and run with it but if you spare some time and dig around to get answer and not hide from the bitter truth then it will be all too easy to see.

I mentioned in my post that during the times of three out of four military dictators, Pakistan was the front line state in the wars of the West. During the late 50s to mid 60s it was the Cold War, then it was the first Afghan war during Zia's regime and the second Afghan war during Musharraf's era. This will help explain the heightened interest by the western powers and their institutions like the IMF and the World Bank to keep Pakistan's economy afloat. Just keep in mind that the major chunk of the GDP of Pakistan is made up of defence and military related expenses. Keep this fact in mind and now extrapolate the graph you posted with this one:

It's self evident but do you see the correlation here? And, that is exactly what I was trying to say in my post that you sprinkled with references to rotting.

Again, I can put up more charts here to show you that most of the countries in the region or the world over, with similar economic indicators as Pakistan, had similar growth rates from 2000 to 2008/2009. Early to mid of 2000s was a bumper period for the world economy in terms of real estate boom fueled by mere speculation. Remember the Dubai real estate boom - Pakistan also benefited from it. KPT (MQM) claimed that they would build the tallest building in the world during this same period. Then around 2008 came the real estate bust the world over and Pakistan felt the impacts of it big time since we DIDN'T HAVE STRONG FUNDAMENTALS, which are needed to sustain an economy in times of crisis.

Except for maybe during the Ayub era the foreign powers basically gave us enough rope(aid) to hang ourselves with. We never turned the corner and are completely dependent on this aid. Case in point the aid(loan) that PMLn has already received from IMF.

By the way, for your reference the above graph shows the total aid received from only US (aid from other countries is separate from this - some in the shape of cheap oil or on deferred payments from the gulf countries during the time we are doing their bidding). Not sure if you followed the news right after 9/11 but if you did then you would recall that a long train of western government functionaries visited Pakistan and all of them announced aid packages as a reward for our capitulation and agreement to be the front line state in their war on terror.

In conclusion all I would say is that naivete is not a virtue. If you want to live in la la land where military dictators are your saviors, where GDP growth rates are high - basically a land of rainbows and unicorns then who am I to rain on your parade. Dream on. Cheers!

 

[mrk123]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

Anjuman e Jahilan e Pakistan ka Kehna "Musharraf Andhi dusmani mein Facts and figures ko Jhutlla Do"

Khaansaab, hum jahiloon ko bhi sun liya karain:

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...-not-foresee&p=1779202&viewfull=1#post1779202

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

Yes, really.

I don't want to say too much about this graph. It seems flawed to me since it claims that each bar represents a year and then for every year during a particular government's era the growth rate is the same. Mind boggling really if you ask me. If you really want to look at some real data then check out the actual GDP growth rate numbers:

It seems to me that you didn't read my post. The jumps in the graph you presented are obvious and it seems that its purposefully doctored to have the dramatic effect to the maximum to prove a point that military dictatorships are better than the civilian governments in Pakistan. Devil is always in the detail! This graph doesn't provide you the whole story. You are free to take the graph you presented and run with it but if you spare some time and dig around to get answer and not hide from the bitter truth then it will be all too easy to see.

I mentioned in my post that during the times of three out of four military dictators, Pakistan was the front line state in the wars of the West. During the late 50s to mid 60s it was the Cold War, then it was the first Afghan war during Zia's regime and the second Afghan war during Musharraf's era. This will help explain the heightened interest by the western powers and their institutions like the IMF and the World Bank to keep Pakistan's economy afloat. Just keep in mind that the major chunk of the GDP of Pakistan is made up of defence and military related expenses. Keep this fact in mind and now extrapolate the graph you posted with this one:

It's pretty self evident but do you see the correlation here? And, that is exactly what I was trying to say in my post that you sprinkled with references to rotting.

Again, I can put up more charts here to show you that most of the countries in the region or the world over with similar economic indicators as Pakistan had similar growth rates from 2000 to 2008/2009. Early to mid of 2000s was a bumper period for the world economy in terms of real estate boom fueled by mere speculation. Remember the Dubai real estate boom - Pakistan also benefited from it. KPT (MQM) claimed that they would build the tallest building in the world during this period. Then around 2008 came the real estate bust the world over and Pakistan felt the impact of it big time since we DIDN'T HAVE STRONG FUNDAMENTALS, which are needed to sustain an economy in times of crisis.

Except for the maybe during Ayub era the foreign powers basically gave us enough rope(aid) to hang ourselves with. We never turned the corner and are completely dependent on this aid. Case in point the aid(loan) that PMLn has already received from IMF.

By the way, for your reference this is the total aid received from only US (aid from other countries is separate from this - some in the shape of cheap oil or on deferred payments from the gulf countries during the time we are doing their bidding).

In conclusion all I would say is that naivete is not a virtue. If you want to live in la la land where military dictators are your saviors, where GDP growth rates are high - basically a land of rainbows and unicorns then who am I to rain on your parade. Dream on. Cheers!

These Musharraf Apologists wouldn't look at the transparent documents from a neutral source. Why would someone waste the time trying to convince these morons that military dictatorship is a poison for any economy on the long run. Yes, indeed , the corrupt generals would get lots of money from the mercenary services from their masters, but once the slave is gone, master would stop the flow of the dollars . And it is difficult for the infantile minds to comprehence that.

 

[mrk123]

The combination of internal enemies in the shape of our politicians and the US agents forced Musharraf to accept the NRO. Afghanistan, he handled in the best interest of Pakistan which is evident from the fact that after him things got worse and not better. Musharraf bent to the limit of Pakistan's interest only beyond that he refused. Now, he might have made sincere errors, but the whole system failed to point out the right things to him. I can still say with certainty that today there is no better qualified, sincere and reliable person to lead Pakistan than Musharraf.

I am sure that UK will grant him citizenship just as it did with Altaf Hussain. I am sure if he is such a gem then countries would love for him to become their chief executive, as he liked to call himself, and run their country to great heights (read to the ground).

 

[mrk123]

Re: Pervaiz musharraf with his spritual fathers

These Musharraf Apologists wouldn't look at the transparent documents from a neutral source. Why would someone waste the time trying to convince these morons that military dictatorship is a poison for any economy on the long run. Yes, indeed , the corrupt generals would get lots of money from the mercenary services from their masters, but once the slave is gone, master would stop the flow of the dollars . And it is difficult for the infantile minds to comprehence that.

You are absolutely right and I am tired of indulging in this debate but the truth needs to be told and insanity needs to be called out.