Sharia punishments are the best to deter all sorts of crimes.

Mulhid

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
As i said before it is beyond your comprehension to understand the root words and the context of the verses.
You can follow whoever suits your agenda but the facts won't change.

It maybe beyond my comprehension but it is not beyond the comprehension of Jalalayn and original scholars of Quran close to time of Muhammad whose commentary clearly states you are allowed to rape captured prisoners of war. Hadiths also say the same thing.

Now you may choose to fool yourself but you are not fooling Taliban, ISIS or anyone who is honest about understanding the Quran.
 

Mulhid

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
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Let me get back to you I am caught up with responding to others. Maybe we can open another thread to discuss that topic because its such a long topic and we can do proper post mortem of the religion of Umayyads and Abbasids.
 

Wake up Pak

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
It maybe beyond my comprehension but it is not beyond the comprehension of Jalalayn and original scholars of Quran close to time of Muhammad whose commentary clearly states you are allowed to rape captured prisoners of war. Hadiths also say the same thing.

Now you may choose to fool yourself but you are not fooling Taliban, ISIS or anyone who is honest about understanding the Quran.
You want to believe his commentary and the hadith then be my guest as it has nothing to do with Islam.
You may fool yourself but not the true Muslims.
 

Citizen X

President (40k+ posts)
Let me get back to you I am caught up with responding to others. Maybe we can open another thread to discuss that topic because its such a long topic and we can do proper post mortem of the religion of Umayyads and Abbasids.
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Mulhid

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
You want to believe his commentary and the hadith then be my guest as it has nothing to do with Islam.

It doesnt matter what you and I believe, 99% of scholars and Muslims would refer to Tafsirs and even hadith to understand context of verses and look at verfied translations. You cant just simply make up your own translations and interpretations on a youtube video and expect anyone to just agree to it by default.
 

Mulhid

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
going in circles over the same thing over and over again

Momins have this problem that they say contradictory things and try to run away to another point without resolving one point.

It may sound repetative but when it comes to religion people do not understand the ridicioulsness behind what they are saying if you dont make they read it over and over again.

When you said that the part regarding enslaving people is only for those arabs of those times, its contradicting with Quran being a word of God for all people for all time. I had to keep bringing you back to it because you do not see the obvious contradiction in it and thats what faith does to people.

The other point was when you said Sunnat doesnt get changed because its passed on by not hundeds but thousands, millions and billions of people but I demonstrated that more is not good in this case, the more people and generations to the more the message and traditions change, small changes add up over generations and become big changes without people noticing it. 500 years ago everyone in England spoke Shakespearan English, now hardly anyone understand it, it didnt become like that suddenly, small changes all added up over many generations without anyone noticing.

Now I am arguing with a guy who is refuting tafsir of Jalalayn with the youtube video of a Gora sitting in US in 21st century. You have to keep repeating it to them because they do not see the ridiculousness behind what they are saying.
 

Wake up Pak

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
It doesnt matter what you and I believe, 99% of scholars and Muslims would refer to Tafsirs and even hadith to understand context of verses and look at verfied translations. You cant just simply make up your own translations and interpretations on a youtube video and expect anyone to just agree to it by default.
It does matter to me as unfortunately majority of Muslims blindly follow the ibne kathir tafseer and fake ahadeeth.
Fortunately, slowly but surely a lots of young generation questioning the traditionalist and moving away from ahadeeth books and corrupt translations of the Quran.
 

Citizen X

President (40k+ posts)
Momins have this problem that they say contradictory things and try to run away to another point without resolving one point.
And you lot have this eternal problem of not accepting anything from anyone unless they say what you want them to say, anything else is unacceptable.

refuting tafsir of Jalalayn
Who the hell is jalalayn? Nobody gives a shit about Jalalayn. Your problem is you are more dogmatic than even the most desi bhaand moulvi.

You're problem is you can't attack the Quran itself other than the few lame and debunked bulletin points you've read off some dude like Haris Sultan, so you attack the dogma instead. Falan scholar is saying this, dhimkhan scholar wrote than, this hadiths says this, that hadis says that.

Me and you aint having any more interactions until

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Taalib-e-Haq

Voter (50+ posts)
What kind of Hafiz are you that you dont know the things that are in your own books. Now you want Mulhids to teach you what is and is not in the Quran?

Quran:

33:50 "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."

4:24 And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands

23:5-6 And they who guard their private part, except with their wives or those ˹bondwomen˺ in their possession, for then they are free from blame,

70:30 And those who guard their private parts, Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they are not to be blamed -

Tafsir Jalalayn:
33:50:
O Prophet! Indeed We have made lawful for you your wives whom you have given their dowries and what your right hand owns of those whom God has given you as spoils of war from the disbelievers whom you have taken captive such as Safiyya and Juwayriyya and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you as opposed to those who did not emigrate and any believing woman if she gift herself in marriage to the Prophet and if the Prophet desire to take her in marriage and ask for her hand in marriage without paying her a dowry

Here Jalalayn commentary is saying Prophet Muhammad himself engage in slavery, rape and abuse of female prisoners of war such as Juwayriyya and Safiyya which is exactly what ISIS did to Yazidi women.

The second highlighted part shows a special discount only for Prophet of Allah to have sex with any woman who offers herself to him and he doesnt need to pay her dowry. Is he sent to Earth to spread message of Allah or to have sex with as many women as he can with special discounts not offered to anyone else??


4:24:
And forbidden to you are wedded women those with spouses that you should marry them before they have left their spouses be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own of captured slave girls whom you may have sexual intercourse with even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy after the completion of one menstrual cycle; this is what God has prescribed for you kitāba is in the accusative because it is the verbal noun.

Here it is saying that you can do rape with slave girls even if that girl is married to another man.

23:5-6:
and who guard their private parts against what is unlawful - except from their spouses that is to their spouses and what slaves their right hands possess that is concubines for then they are not blameworthy in having sexual intercourse with them.

Here it talks about not only sex with slave girls but also concubines which means laundiyan.


Is this a religion or a cult of sexually charged rapists and devil worshippers??

Imagine the horror and terror as those captured women are being forcefully raped inside tents and outside tents by Sahabas of RasoolAllah while the bodies of their fathers and brothers lay scattered near by. SubhaanAllah.

Any person who calls this as a mercy or blessing for mankind should go drown themselves in nearby sewers.

Thank you for teaching me my religion. :) I would love to teach you the Quran, if you have the patience and courtesy to learn. There is a term called contextomy in English linguistics, which means "fallacy of quoting out of context" or simply "quoting out of context". What this implies is removing a passage from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.(1) You too have fallen prey to the age old folly that "men of reason" so often do.

I wish you the best, and can recommend some great courses on reasoning and logic, both in the western academia and the Islamic academia.

Now for your foolhardy logically fallacious claim that Islam orders, allows and/or condones slavery as a general rule/law. Islam has no-where explicitly or implicitly ordered to enslave a free peaceful human being. it is allowed and mandatory in only one exigent condition, that is war, and that to limited to the combatants and enablers.

For the Muslim apologists, yes, it is allowed and is mandatory when a treaty/agreement/alliance is broken and war is declared by the party, breaking the treaty/agreement/alliance Case in point was the Ghazwa of Khyber. Some scholars are of the opinion that the law was only allowed for Rasul-Allah.
Methodology: Using the Quran to explain itself. Translator and Mufassir is irrelevant for the time-being.

Reference 1: Surah Ahzaab 33:50

Reference to Context: The Surah itself starts with the family laws regarding the Family of the Prophet (SAWS) specifically which apply to the general people of Madinah and the Muslim populace at large. Then it talks about the issues that plagued the newly formed and newly integrated Madinan Society. This is largely the section from Verse 1 to Verse 27, which closes with the great Verses 26-27

V:26 "And He brought down those from the People of the Book who supported the enemy alliance from their own strongholds, and cast horror into their hearts. You believers killed some, and took others captive.

V:27: He has also caused you to take over their lands, homes, and wealth, as well as lands you have not yet set foot on. And Allah is Most Capable of everything.

The reason for mentioning these Verses is that these are directly linked to the mentioned Verse 50 from Surah 33 that Mr Scientist/Mulhid so confusedly referenced.

It is in this backdrop, that Verse 50 is revealed and states specifically for the Prophet (SAWS), that he is along with his wives he is allowed to marry from the captive women, and from the women of the migrants.

V:50 “O Prophet! We have made lawful for you your wives to whom you have paid their dowries and (allowed for marriage) are those in your possession, whom Allah has granted you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts, who have emigrated like you. Also a believing woman who offers herself to the Prophet if he is interested in marrying her—this is exclusively for you, not for the rest of the believers. We know well what We have ordained for the believers in relation to their wives and those in their possession. As such, there would be no blame on you. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

V:51 “It is up to you O Prophet to delay or receive whoever you please of your wives. There is no blame on you if you call back any of those you have set aside. That is more likely that they will be content, not grieved, and satisfied with what you offer them all. Allah knows what is in your hearts. And Allah is All-Knowing, Most Forbearing.”

V:52 “It is not lawful for you to marry more women after this, nor can you replace any of your present wives with another, even if her beauty may attract you—except those in your possession. And Allah is ever Watchful over all things.

The Verses clearly state the need and requirement of marriage, even to a Malakat Ayman.

And from the women who were taken as captive (V26:27), Safiyyah bint Huyayy (RA) became the wife of the Prophet (SAWS) and her freedom was her dowry. As a free woman, she had the choice to stay with the Prophet (SAWS), if she found him truthful, and she did so, in both cases, thus becoming a Muslimah and the Mother of the Believers (RA).

Reference 2: Surah Nisa 4:24

Reference to Context: The Surah itself starts with the rights of orphans, male and female, and the need for men and allowance made by Allah, to provide mothers to the orphans. This entails either marrying women, one two three, or four depending on the number of orphans and the responsibility that is entrusted to the mothers to mother them and raise them.

From here, starts the legal framework for maintaining orphans, inheritance and marriage, in this order. In the marriage section,

The marriage section begins from Verse 15 and ends at Verse 28. The Verse 23 starts with the Hurmat(Illegality) of marrying specific women with regards to blood relationships and continues into the verse you referenced Verse 24.

V:23 "Also˺ forbidden to you for marriage are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your paternal and maternal aunts, your brother’s daughters, your sister’s daughters, your foster-mothers, your foster-sisters, your mothers-in-law, your stepdaughters under your guardianship if you have consummated marriage with their mothers—but if you have not, then you can marry them—nor the wives of your own sons, nor two sisters together at the same time—except what was done previously. Surely Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

V:24 "Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession. This is Allah’s commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries. It is permissible to be mutually gracious regarding the set dowry. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."

Here it clearly and explicitly states what is forbidden for marriage and what is not forbidden or allowed for marriage i.e Malakat Ayman

The proof for this exegesis is in the next verse:

V:25 "But if any of you cannot afford to marry a free believing woman, then ˹let him marry˺ a believing bondwoman possessed by one of you. Allah knows best ˹the state of˺ your faith ˹and theirs˺. You are from one another. So marry them with the permission of their owners, giving them their dowry in fairness, if they are chaste, neither promiscuous nor having secret affairs. If they commit indecency after marriage, they receive half the punishment of free women.3 This is for those of you who fear falling into sin. But if you are patient, it is better for you. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

So the analysis is clear and contrary to what you stated. The Muslims were ordered to marry from Malakat Ayman, and not rape them as you are suggesting. Plus, the second condition would entail sending a proposal and getting the response in the affirmative or negative.

References 3 and 4

Surah Muminun and Surah Ma’arij are both Makkiyah Surahs, and were revealed well before the Muslims were free of persecution in Makkah and well before the migration took place. These mention Malakat Ayman but the marriage rules legislating and controlling the mens’ relative to the Malakat Ayman were revealed in Madinah. Muslims had no state of their own, and from the 80 odd people that became Muslims in Makkah, most of them were slaves.

Contrary to many of your arguments, Islam was spread by freed slaves, who became commanders and generals and conquered Rum, Fars and many of the lands that you owe your thought process to.

Mr Mulhid, you are more than welcome to have a healthy discussion, but in the end, To you your religion, for me my religion.

Apka/ki science hafiz. Humara Allah Al-Qaadir
 

Taalib-e-Haq

Voter (50+ posts)
Honest to god for a minute I thought you were Harris Sultan, your ID and the way you debate, points raised, going in circles over the same thing over and over again, stubborn and arrogant. I even wanted to ask you a few times if you were.

Either you are him or highly influenced by him
it sure looks like him, the verbiage that he uses. was he posting his own videos?
 

Taalib-e-Haq

Voter (50+ posts)
Just because you do not like the translation doesnt mean its corrupt.

The authencity of the translation is not based on your likes or dislikes.

Not to sound sarcastic, but you believe that the Jalalayn is authentic and true, yet also believe that the Quran is inauthentic or false.

Oh the irony!
 

Citizen X

President (40k+ posts)
Maybe you dont give a shit about him but for most Muslim he is the most revered Tafsir writer along with Tabari

So it is not Islam's issue if people don't follow it but rather this jalebi walebi! Again can't attack the Quran so go for the dogma.

So correct your stance, you don't have any issue with Islam or the Quran but rather its misguided interpretations and misguided followers. But yeah we know thats not true, you use them you propagate your anti Islam rhetoric and propaganda.

P.S : 1st I'm still waiting for that ground breaking "things everybody is working on". 2nd When having a discussion with me stick to Islam and the Quran, not falan tafseer from jalebi, and falan hadith etc etc. Because none of them mean shit. So stop using these crutches or correct your stance as stated above.
 

Taalib-e-Haq

Voter (50+ posts)
The problem with Ghamdi's ideas is that there is no clear laws in Quran. And even Quran is man made based on what people had memorized same was as hadiths were memorized. I would argue that Hadiths hold more weight than certain verses of Quran because atleast in case of Hadiths there was some verification and methodology but in Quran there was none. Certain verses were only narrated by one or two individuals and no one else and there are no sanads for any verses of Quran, so how do we know what those people were writing down after death of Muhammad were actual verses as revealed to Muhammad and not something they made up like they made up hadiths? Even the people who were incharge of compiling like Umar and Usman had not memorized the Quran.
There was already Mushaf Hafsa before Umar and Usman. Please do some research.

Sanads, all huffaz have there chains going upto the Prophet (SAWS).

You need to learn some Arabic and read original Arab authors instead of relaying on Orientalists and modern day western critics. Nobody in the Islamic world gives two hoots about them. Except maybe you.

Dan Gibson - Still waiting for a response from him post 4 years. I poked so many holes in his hypothesis that he is still counting stars.
 

Taalib-e-Haq

Voter (50+ posts)
If you discard the Hadiths and all the information that comes from it and just leave Quran. You won’t even know which religion this book belongs to and who it was revealed to. Even the 6 Kalimas are not found in there. No details on how much zakaat to give or how to perform the other 4 pillars of Islam.

The word Islam itself is mentioned less than 9 times and you can’t tell if it’s referring to Islam as a religion or Islam as in meaning peace. So from the Quran you can’t even tell what the religion is called.

These are very difficult questions for Quranists to answer and this is why Ahle Hadith do not take their bhondi arguments seriously.

There is a new hypothesis that Quran is an ancient book of a heretic Christian sect in Arabia, since Jesus is mentioned more than Hundred times. Muhammad is mentioned 4-5 times and Muhammad is not a name it’s a title that was given to Jesus in Bible so the Quran could be referring to Jesus. It goes to show how vague the Quran is and without the Hadiths you could literally take it as a Christian book.
Jesus is only mentioned 25 times. According to your logic, the Quran should be a Jewish book.

Mere bhai apne Quran na arbi mein, na urdu mein aur hi na angrezi mein puri tarah parha hai. Apki is post se saaf wazeh hai ke aap bhi humare Pakistan ke rattoo tota nizam se hoke guzre hain aur goron ke rate ratae bekaar ke dalaail pesh karte hain jinka na sar hota hai na pair.
 

Citizen X

President (40k+ posts)
it sure looks like him, the verbiage that he uses. was he posting his own videos?
I don't remember this character outside of this thread, yet he says he's been here for years and apparently a fan since he's read most of my posts, at least that's what he says
 

Mulhid

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
V:50 “O Prophet! We have made lawful for you your wives to whom you have paid their dowries and (allowed for marriage) are those in your possession, whom Allah has granted you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts, who have emigrated like you. Also a believing woman who offers herself to the Prophet if he is interested in marrying her—this is exclusively for you, not for the rest of the believers. We know well what We have ordained for the believers in relation to their wives and those in their possession. As such, there would be no blame on you. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

You will not find any classic tafsir supporting your interpretation of Quran and ill give you the reason why.

In this verse by lawful it is not talking about it being lawful for him to marry or not marry. It is talking about whether or not it is lawful for him to have sex with certain woman.

Lets replace the words in the verse and read it with your intrepretation to see if it makes any sense:

This is in your context and interpretation:
V:50 “O Prophet! We have made lawful for you to marry your wives to whom you have paid their dowries

This is the actual interpretation according to Tafsir and Sahih Hadith:
V:50 “O Prophet! We have made lawful for you to have sex with your wives to whom you have paid their dowries

Now you tell me which one makes more sense?
Is it your interpretation or the tafsir?


How do you marry your wife to whom you are already married?

It is obviously not talking about family law but rather who you are allowed to have sex with. And in contect with what other verses say where you can show your private parts to your concubines and slave girl, it is referring to sex without being too explicit.


Muslims have become embarrased with these verses thats why they are discarding tafsirs and hadith which their own religion was reliant upon for 1200 years and are now coming up with their own translations and interpretations. This is intellectual dishonesty.
 

Mulhid

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
Jesus is only mentioned 25 times. According to your logic, the Quran should be a Jewish book.

Jesus is mentioned by name 25 times, 35 time first person, 48 times in 3rd person.

Muhammad's real name is not even mentioned once in Quran, it is mentioned in Bukhari.

Muhammad/Ahmed is only mentioned 4-5 times but those are titles which could be refering to Jesus.

Other than this there is no mention of Muhammad in Hejaz rock inscriptions. They only mention Musa and Isa.

The first mention of Muhammad comes in 690s around 60 years after supposed death of Muhammad when Caliph Abdel Malik built the Dome of Rock in Jerusalem and introduced Muhammad as Prophet of Allah. One can argue that Abdel Malik is founder of Islam as there is no trace of Muhammad or Islam anywhere before 690s. The hadiths and biographies all supposedly 200 years after Muhammad's death but that is based on Abbasid historians, we dont know when they actually came out, could have been centuries later.

Quran in Arabic basically means scripture and Christian Arabs called their God Allah and called their Bible as Quran.

So there is a theory that the Quran was originally a book from a heretic sect of Nestorian Christians in Northern Arabia near Kufa, Iraq who believed in one God and believed Christ to be a Rasool or Nabi of Allah/God. Even the version of Quran we have today which is the 1924 Cairo verion is a Kufic script and not from Hejaz.
 

Mulhid

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
V:23 "Also˺ forbidden to you for marriage are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your paternal and maternal aunts, your brother’s daughters, your sister’s daughters, your foster-mothers, your foster-sisters, your mothers-in-law, your stepdaughters under your guardianship if you have consummated marriage with their mothers—but if you have not, then you can marry them—nor the wives of your own sons, nor two sisters together at the same time—except what was done previously. Surely Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

V:24 "Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession. This is Allah’s commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries. It is permissible to be mutually gracious regarding the set dowry. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."

Here it clearly and explicitly states what is forbidden for marriage and what is not forbidden or allowed for marriage i.e Malakat Ayman

I read the context of the verses before 4:24 and I still have to side with Ibn Kathir and Jalalayn on this one.

Read that sentence again I have only pasted one part but read it in context of what comes after and before and you will see the same thing:

V:24 "Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession.

It is not just talking about female captives. It is talking about married female captives.

So it is not implying that you have to marry your slave girls before you have sex with them. It is saying that you are allowed to marry slave girls that are already married to someone else - But you are not allowed to marry free women who are already married to someone else.


The proof for this exegesis is in the next verse:

V:25 "But if any of you cannot afford to marry a free believing woman, then ˹let him marry˺ a believing bondwoman possessed by one of you. Allah knows best ˹the state of˺ your faith ˹and theirs˺. You are from one another. So marry them with the permission of their owners, giving them their dowry in fairness, if they are chaste, neither promiscuous nor having secret affairs. If they commit indecency after marriage, they receive half the punishment of free women.3 This is for those of you who fear falling into sin. But if you are patient, it is better for you. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

"But if any of you cannot afford to marry a free believing woman, then ˹let him marry˺ a believing bondwoman possessed by one of you.

This verse is only talking about Muslim slave girls. But majority of women that came in hands of Muslims during the war were non-Muslim. This verse does not apply to them.