SUFI MUSIC ----- Whats the reality?

[Cheeko]

THERE WERE LOT OF SUFIS AND SUFI MUSIC IN THE FIRST YEAR OF ABOOBAKR (rzt), People in
Madina used to gather around during night, Sui-Music used to play the mystic and inspiring music.
People used to listen them till dawn and after Dawn prayer they used to go bed. ISnt, CHEEKO???

Excess of every thing is bad. It is in Hadees that in festivals music and dancing were done. Its not allowed for bad purpose. For detail read whole discussion from start. Dont know about first year of first khalifa because in that year I would still be feeling sad without Last Messenger peace be upon him.

 

[Cheeko]

Quran really is blindness for certain type of people. What should I say more.?

People didnt had any genius like you that time. Did you want to hear this.

 

[sngilani]

Iqbal's concept of Tasassuf and Sufism :

 

[babadeena]

It is in Hadees that in festivals music and dancing were done.

This is a "blank permission" in people like you hands to justify or discard anything which
suits/or does not suit you. Oh Bhai if your heart wishes to listen music and dance
why you have to resort to justify it in "religious way". If you people are hit and
hit hard and severely with Quran, then you immediately ask that person:

SHOW US NAMAZ FROM QURAN,

Now I ask you basic and simple thing on Namaz: your point of view is that
Namaz details are in Hadith. Tell me:
a) when First time it was ordered to establish worship; it was revealed
what, and how to read, what time to read, where to start and where to finish;

b) or you think that Namaz kept on changing with the passage of time, till the
Hadith was complied;
Now what is your position: if it is a) then show me only ONE AND ONE
HADITH AND IT SHOULD BE ONLY ONE HADITH, IN WHICH ALL THOSE DETAILS HAVE
BEEN MENTIONED? or your position is b). Then tell me first time what was read
and in the last time which was added;

As I said, "Hadith" in your people's hand is "blank, open and flexible permission".

 

[sngilani]

Jinnah once said that a king once wanted to trade his kingdom for a horse. He said I am no king, but if I was asked I would not trade a thousand kingdoms for one Iqbal. We Pakistanis are so fortunate to have Iqbal in our traditions. May Allha grant him Jannat Firdous. Amin

 

[Cheeko]

This is a "blank permission" in people like you hands to justify or discard anything which
suits/or does not suit you. Oh Bhai if your heart wishes to listen music and dance
why you have to resort to justify it in "religious way". If you people are hit and
hit hard and severely with Quran, then you immediately ask that person:

SHOW US NAMAZ FROM QURAN,

Now I ask you basic and simple thing on Namaz: your point of view is that
Namaz details are in Hadith. Tell me:
a) when First time it was ordered to establish worship; it was revealed
what, and how to read, what time to read, where to start and where to finish;

b) or you think that Namaz kept on changing with the passage of time, till the
Hadith was complied;
Now what is your position: if it is a) then show me only ONE AND ONE
HADITH AND IT SHOULD BE ONLY ONE HADITH, IN WHICH ALL THOSE DETAILS HAVE
BEEN MENTIONED? or your position is b). Then tell me first time what was read
and in the last time which was added;

As I said, "Hadith" in your people's hand is "blank, open and flexible permission".

Didnt ask you for detail in namaz because I was hit hard or any thing but because you were asking detail and I wanted to explain that for detail Jamaat Ahluus Sunnah refers to Hadees to give evidence to tell that it was practised then also. For namaz is the same thing that if you ask me detail for namaz ritual after 1400 years then I will refer to Hadees. This was the main point. Me still looking for your detail for namaz from Quran.


Hadees for you become blank open permission when I tell something but if you do same thing then it becomes right. You are choosy for your aim. Ahlus Sunnah people believes in all Sahih Hadees.

 

[Pakistani1947]

Who was Mansoor Hallaj and What was his role in Islamic History?

Al-Hallaj (Husain al-Mansur) taught the replacement of the humanity with the divine and he identified himself with God. He also taught you can go on the Hajj pilgrimage simply in spirit. In 922 A.D. he was flogged, publicly mutilated, hung on a giblet, beheaded, and then his body burnt. The orthodox Muslims were apparently displeased with him

SnGilani and Cheeko, please repent ( توبہ کرو), if you are among the follower of Hasain al-Mansur. The scholars of his time were agreed that he was to be executed because of the words of kufr and heresy that were narrated from him. I wish I may be wrong but it seems that both of you are paid employees of Christian missionaries.

[FONT=&quot]Qur’aan 3:154 Say thou: "Indeed, this affair is wholly Allah.s." They hide in their minds what they dare not reveal to thee. They say (to themselves): "If we had had anything to do with this affair, We should not have been in the slaughter here." Say: "Even if you had remained in your homes, those for whom death was decreed would certainly have gone forth to the place of their death"; but (all this was) that Allah might test what is in your breasts and purge what is in your hearts. For Allah knoweth well the secrets of your hearts. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]کہہ دو کہ سب کام الله کے ہاتھ میں ہے وہ اپنے دل میں چھپاتے ہیں جو تیرے سامنے ظاہر نہیں کرتے کہتے ہیں اگر ہمارے ہاتھ میں کچھ کام ہوتا تو ہم اس جگہ مارے نہ جاتے کہہ دو اگر تم اپنے گھروں میں ہوتے البتہ اپنے گرنے کی جگہ پرباہر نکل آتے وہ لوگ جن پر قتل ہونا لکھا جا چکا تھا اور تاکہ الله آزمائے جو تمہارے سینوں میں ہے اور تاکہ اس چیز کو صاف کردے جو تمہارے دلوں میں ہے اور الله دلوں کے بھید جاننے والا ہے[/FONT]​

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Whoever believes what al-Hallaaj believed in and agrees with the ideas for which al-Hallaaj was executed, is a kaafir and an apostate, according to the consensus of the Muslims. Following is Husain al-Mansur's role in Islamic Histoty:

Al-Hallaaj was al-Husayn ibn Mansoor al-Hallaaj, who was known as Abu Mugheeth, or Abu ‘Abd-Allaah. He grew up in Waasit, or it was said in Tastar, and he was connected with a group of Sufis including Sahl al-Tastari, al-Junayd, Abu’l-Hasan al-Noori and others.

He traveled to many places, including Makkah and Khurasaan, and India where he learned sihr (magic, witchcraft). He finally settled in Baghdaad, where he was killed.

He learned magic in India, and he was a trickster and cheat. He deceived many ignorant people thereby, and they were attracted by him, until they thought that he was one of the greatest awliya’ (close friends or “saints”) of Allaah.

He is liked by most of the Orientalists, and they think that he was killed wrongfully because, as we shall see below, his beliefs were close to Christian beliefs and he preached a similar message.
He was executed in Baghdad in 309 AH, because it was proven by his own confession and otherwise that he was a kaafir and a heretic.
The scholars of his time were agreed that he was to be executed because of the words of kufr and heresy that were narrated from him.

The following are some of the things that he said:
1- He claimed to be a prophet, then he went further and said that he was God. He used to say, “I am Allaah,” and he commanded his daughter-in-law to prostrate to him. She said, “Should I prostrate to someone other than Allaah?” He said, “There is a god in the heavens and a god on earth.”

2- He believed in incarnation and union with the Divine, i.e., that Allaah was incarnated in him, and that he and Allaah had become one and the same – exalted be Allaah far above that.

This is what made him acceptable to the Christian Orientalists, because he shared their belief in incarnation, for they believe that God was incarnated in Jesus (‘Eesa, peace be upon him). Hence al-Hallaaj spoke of divine nature and human nature as the Christians do. Some of the lines of verse that he composed said: “Glory be to the one Whose human form manifested the secret of His divinity Then He emerged among His creation in the form of one who eats and drinks.”

When Ibn Haneef heard these lines, he said, “May the curse of Allaah be upon the one who said this.” It was said to him, “This is the poetry of al-Hallaaj.” He said, “If this is what he believes, then he is a kaafir.”

3- He heard someone reciting a verse from the Qur’aan, and he said, “I am able to compose something like that.”

4- Another of his lines of poetry says: “People formed different beliefs about God, and I believe in everything that they believed.”
These words imply that he approved of and believed in all forms of kufr that the misguided sects of humanity believe in, but it is a contradictory notion that no sound mind can accept. How can anyone believe in Tawheed and shirk at the same time?

5- He said things which denied the pillars and basic principles of Islam, namely prayer, zakaah, fasting and Hajj.

6- He used to say that the souls of the Prophets had been reincarnated in the bodies of his companions and students. So he would say to one of them, “You are Nooh”; and to another, “You are Moosa”; and to another, “You are Muhammad.”

7- When he was taken out to be executed, he said to his companions, “Do not worry about this, for I will return to you after thirty days,” He was executed and he never came back.

Because of these sayings and others, the scholars were agreed that he was a kaafir and a heretic, and for this reason he was executed in Baghdad in 309 AH. Similarly, most of the Sufis denounced him and denied that he was one of them. Among those who denounced him was al-Junayd, and he was not mentioned by Abu’l-Qaasim al-Qushayri in his book in which he mentioned many of the Sufi shaykhs.

The one who strove to have him executed and who held a council in which he ruled that he deserved to be executed was Al-Qaadi Abu ‘Umar Muhammad ibn Yoosuf al-Maaliki (may Allaah have mercy on him). Ibn Katheer praised him for that and said, “One of his greatest and most correct judgements was his ruling that al-Husayn ibn Mansoor al-Hallaaj was to be executed.” (al-Bidaayah wa’l-Nihaayah, 11/172)

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Whoever believes what al-Hallaaj believed in and agrees with the ideas for which al-Hallaaj was executed, is a kaafir and an apostate, according to the consensus of the Muslims. For the Muslims executed him because of his belief in incarnation, union with the Divine and other heretical beliefs, such as his saying, ‘I am Allaah,’ and, ‘There is a god in the heavens and a god on earth.’ … Al-Hallaaj performed extraordinary feats and various kinds of magic, and there are books of magic which are attributed to him. In conclusion, there is no dispute among the ummah that whoever believes that Allaah can be incarnated in a human being and be as one with him, or that a human being can be a god, is a kaafir whose blood it is permissible to shed. On this basis al-Hallaaj was executed.” (Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 2/480)

He also said: “We do not know of anyone among the imams of the Muslims who spoke well of al-Hallaaj, neither among the scholars nor among the shaykhs. But some of the people did not comment on him because they did not know about him.” (Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 2/483)

For more information, see Taareekh Baghdaad by al-Khateeb al-Baghdaadi, 8/112-141; al-Muntazam by Ibn al-Jawzi, 13/201-206; Siyar A’laam al-Nubalaa’ by al-Shihaabi, 14/313-354; al-Bidaayah wa’l-Nihaayah by Ibn Katheer, 11/132-144

And Allaah is the Guide to the Straight Path.

 

[Cheeko]

Re: Who was Mansoor Hallaj and What was his role in Islamic History?

SnGilani and Cheeko, please repent ( توبہ کرو), if you are among the follower of Hasain al-Mansur.

You missed one of my last post in which me told that Junaid Baghdadi who was a Aulia Allah gave decision against Mansur Hallaj. But your stories against him also not right because he was punished as he told ana alhaq and he didnt do magic or any thing. Read with open eyes than just blame game.


Basim is projecting people who r against four mazhabs and call yazeed as raziallah and you are not telling him any thing. Do you agree with him that you r quiet.

 

[sngilani]

Re: Who was Mansoor Hallaj and What was his role in Islamic History?

SnGilani and Cheeko, please repent ( ???? ???), if you are among the follower of Hasain al-Mansur. The scholars of his time were agreed that he was to be executed because of the words of kufr and heresy that were narrated from him. I wish I may be wrong but it seems that both of you are paid employees of Christian missionaries.

[FONT=&quot]Qur’aan 3:154 Say thou: "Indeed, this affair is wholly Allah.s." They hide in their minds what they dare not reveal to thee. They say (to themselves): "If we had had anything to do with this affair, We should not have been in the slaughter here." Say: "Even if you had remained in your homes, those for whom death was decreed would certainly have gone forth to the place of their death"; but (all this was) that Allah might test what is in your breasts and purge what is in your hearts. For Allah knoweth well the secrets of your hearts. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??[/FONT]​

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Whoever believes what al-Hallaaj believed in and agrees with the ideas for which al-Hallaaj was executed, is a kaafir and an apostate, according to the consensus of the Muslims. Following is Husain al-Mansur's role in Islamic Histoty:

Al-Hallaaj was al-Husayn ibn Mansoor al-Hallaaj, who was known as Abu Mugheeth, or Abu ‘Abd-Allaah. He grew up in Waasit, or it was said in Tastar, and he was connected with a group of Sufis including Sahl al-Tastari, al-Junayd, Abu’l-Hasan al-Noori and others.

He traveled to many places, including Makkah and Khurasaan, and India where he learned sihr (magic, witchcraft). He finally settled in Baghdaad, where he was killed.

He learned magic in India, and he was a trickster and cheat. He deceived many ignorant people thereby, and they were attracted by him, until they thought that he was one of the greatest awliya’ (close friends or “saints”) of Allaah.

He is liked by most of the Orientalists, and they think that he was killed wrongfully because, as we shall see below, his beliefs were close to Christian beliefs and he preached a similar message.
He was executed in Baghdad in 309 AH, because it was proven by his own confession and otherwise that he was a kaafir and a heretic.
The scholars of his time were agreed that he was to be executed because of the words of kufr and heresy that were narrated from him.

The following are some of the things that he said:
1- He claimed to be a prophet, then he went further and said that he was God. He used to say, “I am Allaah,” and he commanded his daughter-in-law to prostrate to him. She said, “Should I prostrate to someone other than Allaah?” He said, “There is a god in the heavens and a god on earth.”

2- He believed in incarnation and union with the Divine, i.e., that Allaah was incarnated in him, and that he and Allaah had become one and the same – exalted be Allaah far above that.

This is what made him acceptable to the Christian Orientalists, because he shared their belief in incarnation, for they believe that God was incarnated in Jesus (‘Eesa, peace be upon him). Hence al-Hallaaj spoke of divine nature and human nature as the Christians do. Some of the lines of verse that he composed said: “Glory be to the one Whose human form manifested the secret of His divinity Then He emerged among His creation in the form of one who eats and drinks.”

When Ibn Haneef heard these lines, he said, “May the curse of Allaah be upon the one who said this.” It was said to him, “This is the poetry of al-Hallaaj.” He said, “If this is what he believes, then he is a kaafir.”

3- He heard someone reciting a verse from the Qur’aan, and he said, “I am able to compose something like that.”

4- Another of his lines of poetry says: “People formed different beliefs about God, and I believe in everything that they believed.”
These words imply that he approved of and believed in all forms of kufr that the misguided sects of humanity believe in, but it is a contradictory notion that no sound mind can accept. How can anyone believe in Tawheed and shirk at the same time?

5- He said things which denied the pillars and basic principles of Islam, namely prayer, zakaah, fasting and Hajj.

6- He used to say that the souls of the Prophets had been reincarnated in the bodies of his companions and students. So he would say to one of them, “You are Nooh”; and to another, “You are Moosa”; and to another, “You are Muhammad.”

7- When he was taken out to be executed, he said to his companions, “Do not worry about this, for I will return to you after thirty days,” He was executed and he never came back.

Because of these sayings and others, the scholars were agreed that he was a kaafir and a heretic, and for this reason he was executed in Baghdad in 309 AH. Similarly, most of the Sufis denounced him and denied that he was one of them. Among those who denounced him was al-Junayd, and he was not mentioned by Abu’l-Qaasim al-Qushayri in his book in which he mentioned many of the Sufi shaykhs.

The one who strove to have him executed and who held a council in which he ruled that he deserved to be executed was Al-Qaadi Abu ‘Umar Muhammad ibn Yoosuf al-Maaliki (may Allaah have mercy on him). Ibn Katheer praised him for that and said, “One of his greatest and most correct judgements was his ruling that al-Husayn ibn Mansoor al-Hallaaj was to be executed.” (al-Bidaayah wa’l-Nihaayah, 11/172)

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Whoever believes what al-Hallaaj believed in and agrees with the ideas for which al-Hallaaj was executed, is a kaafir and an apostate, according to the consensus of the Muslims. For the Muslims executed him because of his belief in incarnation, union with the Divine and other heretical beliefs, such as his saying, ‘I am Allaah,’ and, ‘There is a god in the heavens and a god on earth.’ … Al-Hallaaj performed extraordinary feats and various kinds of magic, and there are books of magic which are attributed to him. In conclusion, there is no dispute among the ummah that whoever believes that Allaah can be incarnated in a human being and be as one with him, or that a human being can be a god, is a kaafir whose blood it is permissible to shed. On this basis al-Hallaaj was executed.” (Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 2/480)

He also said: “We do not know of anyone among the imams of the Muslims who spoke well of al-Hallaaj, neither among the scholars nor among the shaykhs. But some of the people did not comment on him because they did not know about him.” (Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 2/483)

For more information, see Taareekh Baghdaad by al-Khateeb al-Baghdaadi, 8/112-141; al-Muntazam by Ibn al-Jawzi, 13/201-206; Siyar A’laam al-Nubalaa’ by al-Shihaabi, 14/313-354; al-Bidaayah wa’l-Nihaayah by Ibn Katheer, 11/132-144

And Allaah is the Guide to the Straight Path.

I am not followers of Al-Hallaj (Husain al-Mansur). I am followers of Muhammad (SAW) and appreciate Iqbal to explain this:

 

[babadeena]

Didnt ask you for detail in namaz because I was hit hard or any thing but because you were asking detail and I wanted to explain that for detail Jamaat Ahluus Sunnah refers to Hadees to give evidence to tell that it was practised then also. For namaz is the same thing that if you ask me detail for namaz ritual after 1400 years then I will refer to Hadees. This was the main point. Me still looking for your detail for namaz from Quran.


Hadees for you become blank open permission when I tell something but if you do same thing then it becomes right. You are choosy for your aim. Ahlus Sunnah people believes in all Sahih Hadees.

you very smartly avoided the question. If you wish to know about Namaz in Quran, then read this,
how much more you wish to have from Quran:
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/l00034/worship/p.html
If you wish to create, how, if, but, when, where, why, how much, then there is no limit.

 

[6sman]

Reality of Sufi Loquacity (Qawwali)

Salam,

Instead of sharing my own thoughts guess it's better to present the views straight from a master mouth. Many a great Sufi masters of the past have renounced practicing Qawwaali, among them were eminent shaykhs like Junayd al-Baghdadi, `Abdul-Qadir of Jeelan, Mujaddid Alif Thani, Sayyid Ahmed Brelwi (may Allaah have mercy on them). What follows could be taken as the opinion of `Ali b. `Uthman al-Hujwiri[r] on the issue;

As for little bit of music un-related with religion then there's no harm in it, but using music as a religious act i.e. taking music as means to attain Allaah's closeness is futility and sin.

Salam!

 

[babadeena]

Re: Who was Mansoor Hallaj and What was his role in Islamic History?

[QUOTE]Now I ask you basic and simple thing on Namaz: your point of view is that
Namaz details are in Hadith. Tell me:
a) when First time it was ordered to establish worship; it was revealed
what, and how to read, what time to read, where to start and where to finish;

b) or you think that Namaz kept on changing with the passage of time, till the
Hadith was complied;
Now what is your position: if it is a) then show me only ONE AND ONE
HADITH AND IT SHOULD BE ONLY ONE HADITH, IN WHICH ALL THOSE DETAILS HAVE
BEEN MENTIONED? or your position is b). Then tell me first time what was read
and in the last time which was added;
. [/QUOTE]

Any Champion of Hadith may wish to answer?

 

[sngilani]

Nobel Prize did not deserve the honour of being awarded to Allama Iqbal. Iqbal is light years ahead of NOBEL PRIZE. Iqbal is national poet of Pakistan but he is more popular in Iran. His deepest poetry is in Persian

 

[Cheeko]

Re: Who was Mansoor Hallaj and What was his role in Islamic History?

[QUOTE]Now I ask you basic and simple thing on Namaz: your point of view is that
Namaz details are in Hadith. Tell me:
a) when First time it was ordered to establish worship; it was revealed
what, and how to read, what time to read, where to start and where to finish;

b) or you think that Namaz kept on changing with the passage of time, till the
Hadith was complied;
Now what is your position: if it is a) then show me only ONE AND ONE
HADITH AND IT SHOULD BE ONLY ONE HADITH, IN WHICH ALL THOSE DETAILS HAVE
BEEN MENTIONED? or your position is b). Then tell me first time what was read
and in the last time which was added;
.

Any Champion of Hadith may wish to answer?[/QUOTE]

Means you r not telling me detail of namaz from Quran. Do you agree that qibla was changed or you have different interprtation for that also.

 

[Cheeko]

you very smartly avoided the question. If you wish to know about Namaz in Quran, then read this,
how much more you wish to have from Quran:
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/l00034/worship/p.html
If you wish to create, how, if, but, when, where, why, how much, then there is no limit.

I not avoiding any thing. I dont find detail of namaz in your link.

 

[babadeena]

If you can read my post 270, i suppose?

 

[babadeena]

I not avoiding any thing. I dont find detail of namaz in your link.

What you mean details? Have you gone through all link and its sub folders??????

 

[Cheeko]

What you mean details? Have you gone through all link and its sub folders??????

I dont find details. If you can find then start a new thread and every one can see.

 

[sngilani]

Allah can and must be worshiped directly. Stones, big or small, are His creations and have no power. Then why all Muslims are worshiping and kissing Kaaba stone ? lolzzz ;)

 

[Pakistani1947]

Kissing the Black Stone -حجر اسود کا چومنا

[FONT=&quot]Allah can and must be worshiped directly. Stones, big or small, are His creations and have no power. Then why all Muslims are worshiping and kissing Kaaba stone ? lolzzz [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
SnGilani, please read the following hadith from Sahih Bukhari and then tell me what do you conclude from following Hadith.

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia: 'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a Stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you." (Sahih Bukhari Book #26, Hadith #667)

Do you think Umer (RA) would ever kiss anything without ever seen Prophet Muhammad pbuh doing the same act?

Lesson Learned: Umer (RA) were so careful about any action, which may come under the definition of SHIRK that he (RA) decided to explain the only reason to kiss the black stone, while doing it. Kissing the black stone has religious value proved by Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Before kissing anything with the intention of blessing, every Muslim should ask himself / herself whether this act was done by our Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Kissing anything with the intention of getting religious blessing, without any prove of Muhammad pbuh doing the same act, may come under the definition of SHIRK. Obviously worldly affairs, for example kissing your child does not come under the definition of SHIRK.



[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]