What is Kabalah ! Watch you be amazed

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

SO from Jews they got this idea of SUFISM !!
BABAY NAY ISHAQ MASHOQI NU BANAYA RELIGION ! I do enjoy there Poetry ! bulay sha ! but they are unguided one in Religion !

 

[Sohail Shuja]

SO from Jews they got this idea of SUFISM !!

Same can be said about many other things, like "circumcision", halaal meat and so on. Remember that Hebrew is the parental language of Arabic, therefore you will find many words the same or with slight variation.

BABAY NAY ISHAQ MASHOQI NU BANAYA RELIGION ! I do enjoy there Poetry ! bulay sha ! but they are unguided one in Religion !

I do not think that anyone takes Bulleh Shah as a religious scholar or an authority in religion. Likewise Allama Iqbal, though have written about religion, but yet he is not regarded as a religious scholar.

 

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

Same can be said about many other things, like "circumcision", halaal meat and so on. Remember that Hebrew is the parental language of Arabic, therefore you will find many words the same or with slight variation.


I do not think that anyone takes Bulleh Shah as a religious scholar or an authority in religion. Likewise Allama Iqbal, though have written about religion, but yet he is not regarded as a religious scholar.

The Idea which these Sufis comes up are not in Quran ! Or Authentic Hadith ! Halal And Circumcision are in Hadith and Quran .. Even Musa (peace be upon him) ..
Bulleh Shah Poetry and others are been used for Religious invention for example Sikhism Religious book is full of Poetry of these Muslims Sufis babas ... They claim same kind of knowledge which Jews ancient sufi baba claim in Kabalah as Video mention .

 

[Sohail Shuja]

The Idea which these Sufis comes up are not in Quran ! Or Authentic Hadith !

e.g ?

Halal And Circumcision are in Hadith and Quran .. Even Musa (peace be upon him) ..
Bulleh Shah Poetry and others are been used for Religious invention for example Sikhism Religious book is full of Poetry of these Muslims Sufis babas ... They claim same kind of knowledge which Jews ancient sufi baba claim in Kabalah as Video mention .

There are many researches conducted on Kabalah and they have divergent conclusions. Some call it the mother of satanic religions such as Free Masonry etc.

However, the core of mysticism is the basic fabric which everyone agrees to. It is like the mathematics of humanity, which has a common language and basic tenets which remains the same, throughout many religions. Most of the religions are based on the tenet of humanity.

The core of mysticism revolves around these basic tenets of love, affection, dedication, selflessness and so on and so forth.

But just like the people strictly following Quran and Hadith have formed different sects, drawn different conclusions out of the same verse, verdict or hadith, likewise, in mysticism as well, people have construed its meanings differently.

However, things are interlinked on many levels.

Since, almost every religion has a sense of a creator
every religion is based on doing good things selflessly
every religion prohibits things which harm a person or others around him
every religion seeks love and affection among people.

Therefore, when mysticism talks about such basic tenets, its vires can be traced in every religion, not only in Sikhism alone.

e.g. Rumi says:

Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find... all the barriers within yourself, that you have built against it.​

Now this is more philosophical than religiously ritual. People from almost every religion can connect to the saying of Rumi.

Then at one place Iqbal Says:

تو بچا بچا کے نہ رکھ اسے ترا آئنہ ہے وہ آئنہ

کہ شکستہ ہو تو عزیز تر ہے نگاہ آئنہ ساز میں
​

Now look at what Rumi has to say about it...

The wound is the place where the Light enters you ​

Both are referring to the same thing that if you have a bad experience or have been hurt, then it is not something to lament for in life, rather it is something precious, since when you go through pain, you come to learn about the pain of others.

Now is this message contradictory to Islam or any other religion? Rather it is the basic fabric of almost any religion in this world. It is philosophy of humanity.

No one can take sufism as a religion or a school of thought for the ritualistic religion. Since there are no rituals defined.

 

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

e.g ?


There are many researches conducted on Kabalah and they have divergent conclusions. Some call it the mother of satanic religions such as Free Masonry etc.

However, the core of mysticism is the basic fabric which everyone agrees to. It is like the mathematics of humanity, which has a common language and basic tenets which remains the same, throughout many religions. Most of the religions are based on the tenet of humanity.

The core of mysticism revolves around these basic tenets of love, affection, dedication, selflessness and so on and so forth.

But just like the people strictly following Quran and Hadith have formed different sects, drawn different conclusions out of the same verse, verdict or hadith, likewise, in mysticism as well, people have construed its meanings differently.

However, things are interlinked on many levels.

Since, almost every religion has a sense of a creator
every religion is based on doing good things selflessly
every religion prohibits things which harm a person or others around him
every religion seeks love and affection among people.

Therefore, when mysticism talks about such basic tenets, its vires can be traced in every religion, not only in Sikhism alone.

e.g. Rumi says:

Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find... all the barriers within yourself, that you have built against it.​

Now this is more philosophical than religiously ritual. People from almost every religion can connect to the saying of Rumi.

Then at one place Iqbal Says:

تو بچا بچا کے نہ رکھ اسے ترا آئنہ ہے وہ آئنہ

کہ شکستہ ہو تو عزیز تر ہے نگاہ آئنہ ساز میں
​

Now look at what Rumi has to say about it...

The wound is the place where the Light enters you ​

Both are referring to the same thing that if you have a bad experience or have been hurt, then it is not something to lament for in life, rather it is something precious, since when you go through pain, you come to learn about the pain of others.

Now is this message contradictory to Islam or any other religion? Rather it is the basic fabric of almost any religion in this world. It is philosophy of humanity.

No one can take sufism as a religion or a school of thought for the ritualistic religion. Since there are no rituals defined.

Thanks for telling me the basic of humanity philosophy from the perspective of Sufism . I learn basic of humanity from Quran which was delivered by Prophet of Allah not from individual philosopher of Sufi (Mysticism )

You want example ? from Sufis claims ? Here watch this lecture with from Real scholar

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Thanks for telling me the basic of humanity philosophy from the perspective of Sufism . I learn basic of humanity from Quran which was delivered by Prophet of Allah not from individual philosopher of Sufi (Mysticism )

You want example ? from Sufis claims ? Here watch this lecture with from Real scholar

I think you are not able to grasp even the farthest corner of Sufism until now and since it appears that you are indoctrinated already, therefore you are not even able to comprehend anything.

Look, religion is specific, like a law, e.g. if someone kills someone, then in one religion the penalty will be of death, in another religion, the law may permit to accept a diyaat and in another religion, there can be an exchange of a person as a replacement, but no penalty of death is issued.

However, the basic of this law, its philosophy (the Jurisprudence) is that killing is a bad thing and shall not be done.

Now sufism, as in above example only limits itself to the jurisprudence or the philosophy of moral tenets. Religion or what you call "tareeqat" is specific as the laws are. Try to first imagine what is it by going through it yourself. Off course you can read Allama Iqbal and there is a lots of Sufism in his poetry.

 

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

I think you are not able to grasp even the farthest corner of Sufism until now and since it appears that you are indoctrinated already, therefore you are not even able to comprehend anything.

Look, religion is specific, like a law, e.g. if someone kills someone, then in one religion the penalty will be of death, in another religion, the law may permit to accept a diyaat and in another religion, there can be an exchange of a person as a replacement, but no penalty of death is issued.

However, the basic of this law, its philosophy (the Jurisprudence) is that killing is a bad thing and shall not be done.

Now sufism, as in above example only limits itself to the jurisprudence or the philosophy of moral tenets. Religion or what you call "tareeqat" is specific as the laws are. Try to first imagine what is it by going through it yourself. Off course you can read Allama Iqbal and there is a lots of Sufism in his poetry.

OK its sounds like you thing I can not comprehend Sufism and your explanation..
Well you are right is some way that I already made up my mind ! Reason for that is I have done extensive research on Religion and keep Learning as Student..
Watch Javed Ghamdi 's Lecture on Sufism you will learn some thing new too.

I will Suggest you 1st Read Quran with Translation. Then listen to any Scholar or Philosopher. More over think yourself as neutral person (as non-muslim) and read it as Book like any Book what Author is saying to you.

I can break down all your point and explanation if you insist..
1st of all Quran is not just Jurisprudence its more then that its a Complete Book for humanity ! It covers all expect of human mind.. to you it may be just laws book...
To me Sufism is just like other deviating factor which keeps human away from real Truth.
Jesus is Love... Guru Granth saab (book) is all praise to GOD Love .. They teach the same thing which you trying to explain about Sufism for humanity...
No Sufi baba or Philosopher have True knowledge then One who created you and me which is GOD (Allah) where is Allah Knowledge --> Quran

 

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

 

[Sohail Shuja]

First of all, I am unable to find the reference of Ibn-Arabi's book he mentioned in the start of the video.

Please see it yourself if such a thing is there:

https://ia800304.us.archive.org/3/items/Futuhat-ul-makkiyyah-UrduTranslation/00335_FUTUHAT-UL-MAKKIYYAH_3.pdf

Futuhat-ul-Makkiyyah - Urdu translation : Shaykh-ul-Akbar Mohiuddin Ibn Arabi : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Futuhat-ul-Makkiyyah is probably the best known book of Shaykh-ul-Akbar Ibn Arabi. Now it has been translated for the first time in Urdu by Allama Saim Chishti...

archive.org

Ibn-Al Arabi, only said that Nabuwwat has ended on Hazrat Muhammad (SAW), but as there is mentioned the return of Hazrat Esa (AS) and the coming of Hazrat Imam Mehdi (AS), so it means that they will return and they will follow the Shariat of Muhammad (SAW) . --- Page 28 to 29.

Then in Quran, there is a mention of Hazrat Khizar (A.S) and there is a whole Surah dedicated to Hazrat Luqman. Were they Nabi or Rasool?

Actually my point of contention is a bit different. The Quran is a complete body of knowledge, legislative knowledge, rules and laws.

Mysticism, just like in tareeqat, we have Tafaseer and Fatwas, is a body of secondary knowledge, based on abridgment, dealing with some philosophical questions.

Now people usually contest that it was through Mysticism that the people deviated from original values of Islam and indulged in things like Qawwali, mazaars and peeri and mureedi culture.

However, an equivocal criticism still pertains to the schools of thought in Tareeqat, who introduced sectarianism and propelled many wars among muslims themselves.

I cannot advocate the supremacy of one over the other. I just take tareeqat as an absolute body of knowledge, where things are given in definite terms and measures. Whereas, Sufism is something which deals with the philosophy of religion, dealing with the arbitrary concepts and abstracts, which are not covered in tareeqat.

Since can tareeqat define what to do when a person is aggrieved by a harsh blow of life? yes they can only prescribe a manner to link to Allah (SWT), but it is only mysticism which makes you rationalize the pain you endure during such a period.... it tells you in a very formidable manner that if you are on the right path, then this pain is something worthwhile. It only makes you strong and makes you more sensitive towards feeling the pain of others.

 

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

First of all, I am unable to find the reference of Ibn-Arabi's book he mentioned in the start of the video.

Please see it yourself if such a thing is there:

https://ia800304.us.archive.org/3/items/Futuhat-ul-makkiyyah-UrduTranslation/00335_FUTUHAT-UL-MAKKIYYAH_3.pdf

Futuhat-ul-Makkiyyah - Urdu translation : Shaykh-ul-Akbar Mohiuddin Ibn Arabi : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Futuhat-ul-Makkiyyah is probably the best known book of Shaykh-ul-Akbar Ibn Arabi. Now it has been translated for the first time in Urdu by Allama Saim Chishti...

archive.org

Ibn-Al Arabi, only said that Nabuwwat has ended on Hazrat Muhammad (SAW), but as there is mentioned the return of Hazrat Esa (AS) and the coming of Hazrat Imam Mehdi (AS), so it means that they will return and they will follow the Shariat of Muhammad (SAW) . --- Page 28 to 29.

Then in Quran, there is a mention of Hazrat Khizar (A.S) and there is a whole Surah dedicated to Hazrat Luqman. Were they Nabi or Rasool?

Actually my point of contention is a bit different. The Quran is a complete body of knowledge, legislative knowledge, rules and laws.

Mysticism, just like in tareeqat, we have Tafaseer and Fatwas, is a body of secondary knowledge, based on abridgment, dealing with some philosophical questions.

Now people usually contest that it was through Mysticism that the people deviated from original values of Islam and indulged in things like Qawwali, mazaars and peeri and mureedi culture.

However, an equivocal criticism still pertains to the schools of thought in Tareeqat, who introduced sectarianism and propelled many wars among muslims themselves.

I cannot advocate the supremacy of one over the other. I just take tareeqat as an absolute body of knowledge, where things are given in definite terms and measures. Whereas, Sufism is something which deals with the philosophy of religion, dealing with the arbitrary concepts and abstracts, which are not covered in tareeqat.

Since can tareeqat define what to do when a person is aggrieved by a harsh blow of life? yes they can only prescribe a manner to link to Allah (SWT), but it is only mysticism which makes you rationalize the pain you endure during such a period.... it tells you in a very formidable manner that if you are on the right path, then this pain is something worthwhile. It only makes you strong and makes you more sensitive towards feeling the pain of others.

Ok burden of prove is on you.. prove to me one or any practices using Sufism philosophy which was not taught by Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him and Quran.. Did Quran and Prophet was not aware of these Sufism Philosophy ?
Was Hazart Khizar and Hazrat Luqman greater then last prophet ? And last massage of Allah Quran for humanity? Did Allah and his last messenger left out any thing ? Which these Sufi Baba Philosopher know ?
Big claims need big evidence !
On side notes .. Hazarat Isa peace be upon him not coming back and imam Mahdi is nothing but righteous leader of Muslims.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Ok burden of prove is on you.. prove to me one or any practices using Sufism philosophy which was not taught by Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him and Quran.. Did Quran and Prophet was not aware of these Sufism Philosophy ?
Was Hazart Khizar and Hazrat Luqman greater then last prophet ? And last massage of Allah Quran for humanity? Did Allah and his last messenger left out any thing ? Which these Sufi Baba Philosopher know ?

First of all, you are all but enraged for nothing. Did I ever mention any sufi being above Allah (SWT) or his Messenger (SAW)? I only referred to people of wisdom, after them. Just like Hazrat Khizar (AS) and Hazrat Luqman (AS). Then there are other scholars in Islam, Imam Jafar Sadiq, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik, Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal,etc. Why these scholars of tareeqat were there? was not the teachings of Quran and Sunnah enough? why did they write those fiqah?

Abridgment of religion is also done in tareeqat. For what do you have mufti's and tafaseer?

According to your point of view, the tafaseer and fatwas should be out of Islam as well. How can they teach you something which is not in Quran?

Secondly, do you know what is Ijma and Ijtihad and why such exercises were proscribed by the Messenger (SAW)? Purposefully, this serves the need to elaborate problems which are not clearly mentioned in Quran and on such matters, the theme of Quran and Sunnah is taken as a guideline. e.g. there is a small problem of gender selection in prenatal babies. How does Quran and Sunnah define it?

Then tell me another problem from Quran and Sunnah that if a woman's husband goes missing, then can she remarry? if yes then after how much time? please give solution only out of Quran and Ahadith.

Clearly if such problems were defined in Quran at length, one would not have been able to go through the Quran and comprehend it 1400 years ago.

As Allah (SWT) said in Surah Luqman:

And if all trees that are on the earth were to be pens, and the ocean (converted into ink) is supported by seven seas following it, the words of Allah would not come to an end. Surely, Allah is Mighty, Wise.(31:27)

Big claims need big evidence !
On side notes .. Hazarat Isa peace be upon him not coming back and imam Mahdi is nothing but righteous leader of Muslims.

Well, it is a futile debate. You being a disciple of Ghamdi may side with his point of view on it, whereas many other Muslim scholars are of the view of second coming of Jesus (AS) on the basis of Hadith of Sahih Bukhari ( Volume 3, Book 43: Kitab-ul-`Ilm, Hâdith Number 656) and Sahih Muslim etc.

So this circumscribes the notion of conflict between the scholars of tareeqat as well. So if they follow the same book and same Prophet (SAW), then how can their views be so contradictory and divergent?

I will still say that you are misconceived about Sufism, just because of focusing on the dark side of it. But remember, if we focus on the dark side of tareeqat, we see suicide bombers and ISIS etc as well.

Therefore, to have an unbiased view, things should not be taken out of their original context and one should see both sides of the picture to extract a poised conclusion.

 

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

First of all, you are all but enraged for nothing. Did I ever mention any sufi being above Allah (SWT) or his Messenger (SAW)? I only referred to people of wisdom, after them. Just like Hazrat Khizar (AS) and Hazrat Luqman (AS).

Abridgment of religion is also done in tareeqat. For what do you have mufti's and tafaseer?

In your point of view, the tafaseer and fatwas should be out of Islam as well. How can they teach you something which is not in Quran?

Secondly, do you know what is Ijma and Ijtihad and why such exercises were proscribed by the Messenger (SAW)? Purposefully, this serves the need to elaborate problems which are not clearly mentioned in Quran and on such matters, the theme of Quran and Sunnah is taken as a guideline. e.g. there is a small problem of gender selection in prenatal babies. How does Quran and Sunnah define it? what about genetic engineering, cloning and use of quantum theories to define quantum suicide? What about probability principle, birth and deaths of baby universes?

Clearly if such problems were defined in Quran at length, one would not have been able to go through the Quran and comprehend it 1400 years ago.

As Allah (SWT) said in Surah Luqman:

And if all trees that are on the earth were to be pens, and the ocean (converted into ink) is supported by seven seas following it, the words of Allah would not come to an end. Surely, Allah is Mighty, Wise.(31:27)


Well, it is a futile debate. You being a disciple of Ghamdi may side with his point of view on it, whereas many other Muslim scholars are of the view on the basis of Hadith of Sahih Bukhari ( Volume 3, Book 43: Kitab-ul-`Ilm, Hâdith Number 656) and Sahih Muslim etc.

So this exonerates the notion of conflict between the scholars of tareeqat as well.

I will still say that you are misconceived about Sufism, just because of focusing on the dark side of it. But remember, if we focus on the dark side of tareeqat, we see suicide bombers and ISIS etc as well.

Therefore, to have an unbiased view, things should not be taken out of their original context and one should see both sides of the picture to extract a poised conclusion.

To be honest with you Javed saab was very late scholar in my quest for knowledge for Religion, Before that I did not even consider Any Pakistani Mufti or scholar worthy of my time. Before that Mostly English speaking Scholar was my Favorites.

That was beside the Point what we are discussing about, Just clarifying.

"Tafseers and Fatwah Ijma and Ijtihad " These are all Opinions drive from best of their knowledge and ability, These are not compulsory to abide by and they don't effect the core pillars of Islam and Iman. One can take that opinion or find better evidence against it to leave it. Like Imams said can throw my fatwa on wall if you find evidence against it.

Issue is when you claim that Sufis or they claim (Sufis baba) that they have better way( knwoldege, Tareka, Practice, ) of attaining inner Peace.

Now I know you will say you never claim or they claim they have better knowledge or practice .. But matter of fact is it is True and that is why you are arguing in favor of Sufism.

These Sufi babas following their own desire and practice.
The pain and Suffering and its remedy ! Do Sufi baba have it ? No my friend !
Its in Quran SABAR (Patient) Forgiveness! Refuge in Allah,
Trials of Life , Wealth health Childers Spouse Parents Relatives
and ISHQ (love) which is favorite target of these Sufi babs .. I know personally how devastating this can effect, Time is biggest healer.. IF my knowledge wasn't enough in Allah and Religion I could be Sufi baba target. Most of All ask Refuge from Allah.

There is no shortage of Naïve and ignorant people in this world and SUFI babas will prey on these. Just go look around you will see Peer Mureed every where ! Forget about Muslims nation .. Just look into other Religion Plenty of PEER and Mureeds

My friend no one will go in your grave with you to answer your deeds and Believes.. Only you be answerable..
Allah have given Human Brain Aqal and engraved in your DNA to distinguish between Right and Wrong, No matter where ever you born in Hindu Muslim Christian Atheist Family.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

To be honest with you Javed saab was very late scholar in my quest for knowledge for Religion, Before that I did not even consider Any Pakistani Mufti or scholar worthy of my time. Before that Mostly English speaking Scholar was my Favorites.

That was beside the Point what we are discussing about, Just clarifying.

"Tafseers and Fatwah Ijma and Ijtihad " These are all Opinions drive from best of their knowledge and ability, These are not compulsory to abide by and they don't effect the core pillars of Islam and Iman. One can take that opinion or find better evidence against it to leave it. Like Imams said can throw my fatwa on wall if you find evidence against it.

Issue is when you claim that Sufis or they claim (Sufis baba) that they have better way( knwoldege, Tareka, Practice, ) of attaining inner Peace.

Now I know you will say you never claim or they claim they have better knowledge or practice .. But matter of fact is it is True and that is why you are arguing in favor of Sufism.

These Sufi babas following their own desire and practice.
The pain and Suffering and its remedy ! Do Sufi baba have it ? No my friend !
Its in Quran SABAR (Patient) Forgiveness! Refuge in Allah,
Trials of Life , Wealth health Childers Spouse Parents Relatives
and ISHQ (love) which is favorite target of these Sufi babs .. I know personally how devastating this can effect, Time is biggest healer.. IF my knowledge wasn't enough in Allah and Religion I could be Sufi baba target. Most of All ask Refuge from Allah.

There is no shortage of Naïve and ignorant people in this world and SUFI babas will prey on these. Just go look around you will see Peer Mureed every where ! Forget about Muslims nation .. Just look into other Religion Plenty of PEER and Mureeds

My friend no one will go in your grave with you to answer your deeds and Believes.. Only you be answerable..
Allah have given Human Brain Aqal and engraved in your DNA to distinguish between Right and Wrong, No matter where ever you born in Hindu Muslim Christian Atheist Family.

Again, you are just focusing on the dark side of Sufism, whereas clearly not mentioning anything about the dark side of tareeqat which has yielded terrorism all over the world.

Look, there is no debate of one being superior to other. These two have a very different context. Tareeqat is unavoidable in the matters of daily life. How shall one distribute the property of the deceased? how shall one give and take money? how can we record evidence of a crime/problem? what are the women allowed to do and what are men allowed to do etc. These hardcore problems are not the focus of Sufism, whatsoever.

However, when leaning towards the broader context of Islam, where philosophical questions are concerned, Sufism provides a much better answer than tareeqat. Shah Wali gave the proposition of Ghazwa e Hind, that is a philosophical narrative based on socio-political facts. Imam Ghazali gave many explanations about sciences, that also is a part of Sufism. Then Moulana Rumi, Hafiz Sherazi, Sheikh Saadi etc. all were sufis and they have contributed in a very resilient manner to uplift the moral standards of people, by elaborating different philosophical questions, which form the cornerstone of one's thinking.

Then there are sufis who spread Islam in Sub-Continent. Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai, Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani, Farid Ud-Din Ganjshakar, and many others.... these sufi saints never ever took love of a woman as part of their preaching. Try to sometimes go through their literature.

Actually what you are talking about is the malpractice or the dark side of sufism. Well, as there are good people, there are bad people as well, in every sphere of life. But this cannot be used to discredit any thing in totality. I agree that the miscreants in sufism have deviated from the true path, but so have many people of tareeqat as well. But shall I contend that the whole idea of tareeqat is flawed just by giving example of a few bad men in there? No... I should take the whole concept of tareeqat in its entirety, without the malpractices in vogue by some malignant factors.

 

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

Again, you are just focusing on the dark side of Sufism, whereas clearly not mentioning anything about the dark side of tareeqat which has yielded terrorism all over the world.

Look, there is no debate of one being superior to other. These two have a very different context. Tareeqat is unavoidable in the matters of daily life. How shall one distribute the property of the deceased? how shall one give and take money? how can we record evidence of a crime/problem? what are the women allowed to do and what are men allowed to do etc. These hardcore problems are not the focus of Sufism, whatsoever.

However, when leaning towards the broader context of Islam, where philosophical questions are concerned, Sufism provides a much better answer than tareeqat. Shah Wali gave the proposition of Ghazwa e Hind, that is a philosophical narrative based on socio-political facts. Imam Ghazali gave many explanations about sciences, that also is a part of Sufism. Then Moulana Rumi, Hafiz Sherazi, Sheikh Saadi etc. all were sufis and they have contributed in a very resilient manner to uplift the moral standards of people, by elaborating different philosophical questions, which form the cornerstone of one's thinking.

Then there are sufis who spread Islam in Sub-Continent. Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai, Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani, Farid Ud-Din Ganjshakar, and many others.... these sufi saints never ever took love of a woman as part of their preaching. Try to sometimes go through their literature.

Actually what you are talking about is the malpractice or the dark side of sufism. Well, as there are good people, there are bad people as well, in every sphere of life. But this cannot be used to discredit any thing in totality. I agree that the miscreants in sufism have deviated from the true path, but so have many people of tareeqat as well. But shall I contend that the whole idea of tareeqat is flawed just by giving example of a few bad men in there? No... I should take the whole concept of tareeqat in its entirety, without the malpractices in vogue by some malignant factors.

Ok so the crux of your argument is Tareeqat=Quran and Sunnah Sufism = wisdom of individual Baba (wisdom according to you) Both have followers who deviate from original message I.e extremists

Which one will I chose ? between Tareeqat and Sufish
My choice Obviously
Tareeqat= Quran and Sunnah
Your choice
Sufism= Wisdom of Gilani etc many babas

DO we have any comparison you tell me ?

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Ok so the crux of your argument is Tareeqat=Quran and Sunnah Sufism = wisdom of individual Baba (wisdom according to you) Both have followers who deviate from original message I.e extremists

Which one will I chose ? between Tareeqat and Sufish
My choice Obviously
Tareeqat= Quran and Sunnah
Your choice
Sufism= Wisdom of Gilani etc many babas

DO we have any comparison you tell me ?

Sufism compliments tareeqat and does not contradict it. Therefore it is more like a question of choosing mathematics over physics.

Tareeqat has its own sphere of hardcore rules, laws and procedures. Just like the equations of mathematics.

Sufism is a softer side of theology, dealing with vague ideas and making them formidable, just like the theories of physics. However, if these theories do not have a mathematical rationale, they are a farce. Similarly, if the mathematical equation does not have a seat in theory, it is impractical and void ab initio.

NB: Your demeaning language for Sufis as "Baba's" can also be met by me after pasting here a pic of Mufti Qavi and calling him a Mullah. But is that the teaching of Islam in any sense, whatsoever?

 

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

Sufism compliments tareeqat and does not contradict it. Therefore it is more like a question of choosing mathematics over physics.

Tareeqat has its own sphere of hardcore rules, laws and procedures. Just like the equations of mathematics.

Sufism is a softer side of theology, dealing with vague ideas and making them formidable, just like the theories of physics. However, if these theories do not have a mathematical rationale, they are a farce. Similarly, if the mathematical equation does not have a seat in theory, it is impractical and void ab initio.

NB: Your demeaning language for Sufis as "Baba's" can also be met by me after pasting here a pic of Mufti Qavi and calling him a Mullah. But is that the teaching of Islam in any sense, whatsoever?

At least you agree on terms ,,
Now the Sufism soft theology and Vague ideas , What are they ?
Should we examine them by which standard ? Obviously by Quran and Suna

Please go watch Full Lecture serious on Sufism Tasawuf.
I have, Javed Ghamdi saab will give you evidence from Sufism own books what their claims are !

It will increase your knowledge.. Any Claims made by any individual should be checked and verified before you except it.

Like I said Mufti Qavi who is he? I dont care , No Mulah Mufti Molvie of Pakistan I consider worthy of my time !
Javed Ahmed Ghamdi have no Title with his name He just call him self Student.
I have watched almost all his lecture online.

If its too hard for you to watch, Give me one claim of Sufis which we can examine ,here . like What is the remedy for suffering and pain by Suifsm.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

At least you agree on terms ,,
Now the Sufism soft theology and Vague ideas , What are they ?
Should we examine them by which standard ? Obviously by Quran and Suna

Please go watch Full Lecture serious on Sufism Tasawuf.
I have, Javed Ghamdi saab will give you evidence from Sufism own books what their claims are !

It will increase your knowledge.. Any Claims made by any individual should be checked and verified before you except it.

Like I said Mufti Qavi who is he? I dont care , No Mulah Mufti Molvie of Pakistan I consider worthy of my time !
Javed Ahmed Ghamdi have no Title with his name He just call him self Student.
I have watched almost all his lecture online.

If its too hard for you to watch, Give me one claim of Sufis which we can examine ,here . like What is the remedy for suffering and pain by Suifsm.

Already given my reference in post #9 of this thread. However, I do have great respect for Ghamdi Sb too. But can he enlighten us about Wahdat ul Wajood (unity of being)?

 

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

Already given my reference in post #9 of this thread. However, I do have great respect for Ghamdi Sb too. But can he enlighten us about Wahdat ul Wajood (unity of being)?

 

[AzaadAlfaaz1316]

Already given my reference in post #9 of this thread. However, I do have great respect for Ghamdi Sb too. But can he enlighten us about Wahdat ul Wajood (unity of being)?

Here another beautiful explanation by Javed Ghamdi Saab..
“Already given my reference in post #9 of this thread.”
I also given my response on this matter from Quran and Sunah for pain and suffering .. above video explain sum up in lay men terms.
Quran and suna is better then Sufism theology.

My emphasis is on to bring your attention on Standards between you and me which is Quran and Suna.
Sufism theology have no Standard to stand upon.
it’s just mere individual philosophy not sanction by any Prophet or Book of Allah Quran.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Quran and suna is better then Sufism theology.


My emphasis is on to bring your attention on Standards between you and me which is Quran and Suna.
Sufism theology have no Standard to stand upon.
it’s just mere individual philosophy not sanction by any Prophet or Book of Allah Quran.

معلوم ہوتا ہے کہ ابھی تک آپ طریقت اور تصوّف کی تفریق کو ہی نہیں سمجھ پائے۔ میں اپنی پچھلی پوسٹوں میں بھی یہی بات واضع کرنے کی کوشش کرتا رہا ہوں کہ ان دونوں کا تقابل ممکن نہیں ہے۔ طریقت اور شریعت ایک علٰیحدہ مسئلہ ہے جو دین کی بنیادی باتوں کا ذکر کرتے ہیں اور انھی سے متعلق ہیں۔ مثلاً اللہ ایک ہے۔ یہ کائنات اس کی تخلیق کردہ ہے۔

تصوّف کا میدان یہاں سے آگے سے شروع ہوتا ہے۔ تصوّف اس بات کی نفی نہیں کرتا کہ اللہ ایک نہیں ہے یا یہ کائنات اس نے تخلیق نہیں کی۔ یہاں یہ بات زیرِ بحث آتی ہے کہ کیا اللہ کا وجود ہی وحدت الوجود ہے؟ یعنی کیا یہ مادّہ اور کائنات اور عالم ارواح وغیرہ سب اسی کے وجود کا ایک حصہّ ہیں، یا یہاں پر ثانویت ہے؟

اس پر وحدت الوجود، وحدت الشہود اور توحید الوجودی، تین مختلف آراء موجود ہیں۔ لیکن کمال بات یہ ہے کہ آپ ان میں سے کسی کو بھی مانیں، یا نہ مانیں، اس سے آپ کے ایمان پر کوئی فرق نہیں پڑتا، کیونکہ ایمان کی بنیاد صرف اس بات پر ہے کہ اللہ کو ایک جانو۔ اب وہ جیسے بھی مانو، وحدت الوجود میں، وحدت الشہود میں یا توحید الوجود میں۔۔۔۔ کسی کے نمبر کسی سے زیادہ یا کم نہیں۔ تو طریقت یا شریعت کے حساب سے صرف توحید کا ماننا ایمان کا حصہّ ہے۔ لیکن توحید کو تصوّف رَدّ نہیں کرتا، بلکہ اسکی اشکال اور تشبیحات تلاش کرتا ہے۔ یہ فلسفے کا مسئلہ ہے، اس سے دین کی بنیاد کا کچھ لینا دینا نہیں۔

جہاں بات فلسفے کی آتی ہے تو یاد رکھیں کہ دنیاوی علوم کی ماں فلسفہ قرار دی جاتی ہے۔ یہاں سے مختلف علوم کی شارع نکلتی ہیں جو میٹا فزکس، منطق، جمالیات، اخلاقیات، اور سیاسیات کی شکل اختیار کرتی ہے۔ تو جب آپ تصوّف میں جاتے ہیں تو دراصل آپ طریقت یا شریعت کی باتوں کو فلسفے کے پانچوں میزانوں میں کہیں رکھ کر اسکا موازنہ کر رہے ہوتے ہیں یا اسکی تشبیحات تلاش کر رہے ہوتے ہیں۔ اس سے مزید علوم اور فنون کی ترویج ہوتی ہے۔

مثلاً اگر آپ فزکس سے ہا سائنس سے تھوڑی دلچسپی رکھتے ہیں تو ڈاکٹر اسرار احمد کی یہ ایک ویڈیو دیکھ لیجیئے اور دیکھیں کہ کیسے کن فیکون سے وحدت الوجود کا فلسفہ پھوٹتا ہے؟
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اب بتائیں، نظریہ وحدت الوجود، وحدت الشہود یا توحید الوجود میں سے کسی ایک پر بھی چلنے سے کیا آپ اس شخص کو اسلام سے خارج کر دیں گے؟حالانکہ شریعت تو صرف اس حد تک بتاتی ہے کہ اللہ کو ایک جانو۔ ان تینوں طریقوں میں کہیں بھی اللہ کو دو نہیں مانا گیا۔ سب توحید کے نظریئے کی ہی مختلف تشریحات ہیں۔

آپ کے ذہن میں تصوّف کا تصور صرف پیر مرید اور مزاروں پر ہونے والے ڈھول تماشے، چرس و افیون و بھنگ کی محافل کا نام ہے جو کہ ہمارے یہاں عما طور ر دیکھنے کو ملتی ہیں۔ لیکن ان خرافات کا تصوّف سے کچھ لینا دینا نہیں ہے۔ تصوف نہ تو کسی قبر کو سجدہ کرنا سکھاتا ہے اور نہ ہی اللہ کی ذات کے ساتھ کسی کو شریک جانتا ہے لہٰذا اس کے علاوہ کسی سے دعا بھی نہیں کرتا۔

لیکن موجودہ دور میں دین کی اشکال ہر طرف سے بگڑی ہوئی ہیں۔ دوسری جانب کی اگر صرف برائیوں یا کوتاہیوں کو دیکھنا مقصود ہو تو آپکو طریقت میں بچے مسجدوں اور مدرسوں مین ریپ ہوتے ہوئے ملیں گے، مذہبی تنظیموں والے خود کش دھماکے اور دہشتگردی کرتے ہوئے ملیں گے۔۔۔۔۔ لیکن کیا ان چند غافل لوگوں کو دیکھ کر میں طریقت کو ہی گالیاں نکالنی شروع کر دوں کہ طریقت بچوں کا ریپ سکھاتی ہے یا طریقت دہشتگردی سکھاتی ہے؟

نہیں۔ میں چند غلط عناصر کی بناء پر ایک صحیح بات کو غلط نہیں کہہ سکتا۔ مذہب نہ تو ریپ سکھاتا ہے اور نہ انتہا پسندی۔

لہٰذا آپ بھی یہ پیری مریدی، تعویذ گنڈے وغیرہ کو تصوّف نہ ہی گردانیں تو نوازش ہوگی۔ تصوّف کے صحیح میدان میں اسکو پرکھیں گے تب آپکو سمجھ آئے گی کہ طریقت بنیاد اور اصول ہیں، یا سمجھیں دین کی جڑ ہے، اسکا تنا ہے، اور تصوّف اسکی شاخیں ہیں، پتے اور ٹہنیاں ہیں۔ جڑ اور تنے کا وجود محکم ہے۔ لیکن ٹہنیوں اور پتوں کے وجود میں لچک ہے، مگر وہ خود اسی جڑ اور تنے سے پیوست ہیں۔ ان سے علیحدہ کچھ نہیں۔ اور ان دونوں کا کام آپس میں جڑا ہوا ہے، نہ کہ الگ الگ ہے یا ایک دوسرے کے خلاف ہے۔
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