Democracy vs. Islam ....you decide

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

You may be correct, but in terms of a way of running a government. It is too early to say. It has only worked in a few countries.
As I said earlier, any system is just as good as the people running it.
But there are some excellent points in the system of Democracy in terms of running the affairs of a country. For instance the system of checks and balance, which was non existent in the earlier systems. As well as the creation of the institutions of Judiciary, this was actually introduced by the islamic Khilafa (Read Prof Noah Feldman: Fall and rise of Islamic State), but it was the west that actually institutionalized it.

Having said that, the west wants and understands from a functioning democracy that the democratic country should make their own laws with 51% majority vote, these laws can be directly against the commands of God/Allah, This is where I have a problem with as a Muslim

What are the Allah's Laws
Take others women as war booty and have sex with them
Capture others lands and make them slaves in their own land
No non Muslim can marry a Muslim girl but a Muslim can marry a Non Muslim girls
Collect jizziya from non Muslims and make them second class citizens of the state
If a girl was raped then she has to produce 4 onlooker of her rape
Women will only get half of the property than man
No non Muslim can become the head of the state
If Non Muslim becomes Muslim he must be given money for his Diljoi and if a Muslim leave Islam Kill Him
Muslims are free to propagate their religion but non Muslims cannot

What kind of just laws these are?

 

[Qarar]

What are the Allah's Laws
Take others women as war booty and have sex with them
Capture others lands and make them slaves in their own land
No non Muslim can marry a Muslim girl but a Muslim can marry a Non Muslim girls
Collect jizziya from non Muslims and make them second class citizens of the state
If a girl was raped then she has to produce 4 onlooker of her rape
Women will only get half of the property than man
No non Muslim can become the head of the state
If Non Muslim becomes Muslim he must be given money for his Diljoi and if a Muslim leave Islam Kill Him
Muslims are free to propagate their religion but non Muslims cannot

What kind of just laws these are?

That was put rather bluntly, but unfortunately true and right on the money. :-)

 

[First Responder]

What are the Allah's Laws
Take others women as war booty and have sex with them
Capture others lands and make them slaves in their own land
No non Muslim can marry a Muslim girl but a Muslim can marry a Non Muslim girls
Collect jizziya from non Muslims and make them second class citizens of the state
If a girl was raped then she has to produce 4 onlooker of her rape
Women will only get half of the property than man
No non Muslim can become the head of the state
If Non Muslim becomes Muslim he must be given money for his Diljoi and if a Muslim leave Islam Kill Him
Muslims are free to propagate their religion but non Muslims cannot

What kind of just laws these are?

I don't know if you are a muslim or not.

If you are a non muslim, then there is no point in debating about Islamic Laws. The First question is to examine and see if you believe in the Prophetpbuh, Allah and the Quranpbuh, if you don't believe in them, then all I have to say to you is "TO YOU YOUR RELIGION and to ME MINE.

IF you are a Muslim, all I can say is go read the Quran, if you still don't understand it keep reading it till you do. MAY ALLAH Guide us all. AMEEN

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

I don't know if you are a muslim or not.

If you are a non muslim, then there is no point in debating about Islamic Laws. The First question is to examine and see if you believe in the Prophetpbuh, Allah and the Quranpbuh, if you don't believe in them, then all I have to say to you is "TO YOU YOUR RELIGION and to ME MINE.

IF you are a Muslim, all I can say is go read the Quran, if you still don't understand it keep reading it till you do. MAY ALLAH Guide us all. AMEEN

Do u think Muslim Scholar Gamdi know nothing about Religion?
I have not read any such thing in his interpretation of Islam

 

[JusticeLover]

The purpose of this thread is to have a healthy debate and try to understand the differences in the two systems.
Me being a muslim do have a bias in favor of Islamic system.

دین حضور کی وفات کے ساتھ ھی مکمل ھو گیا تھا ، حضور نے حکمرانوں کے انتخاب کے بارے میں کوئی حکم نہ دیا اور مسلمانوں کو مکمل آزادی دی کہ و اپنا حکمران خود چن لیں۔
اسلام مسلمانوں کو حکمران اور سیاسی نظام چننے کی مکمل اجازت دیتا ہے ۔

اسلام بمقابلہ جمہوریت موازنہ ھی غلط ھے۔ جمہوریت کوئی فکس چیز نھیں ھر قوم اسے اپنی مرضی اور ضرورت کے مطابق ڈھال سکتی ہے۔
جمہوریت معاویہ اور یزید کی خلافتوں سے ھزار درجہ بہتر ہے۔

 

[First Responder]

Do u think Muslim Scholar Gamdi know nothing about Religion?
I have not read any such thing in his interpretation of Islam

I don't want to discuss personalities, he may have views that I don't agree with. I think the Quran is quite clear on this subject matter.

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

I don't want to discuss personalities, he may have views that I don't agree with. I think the Quran is quite clear on this subject matter.

If Quran is Clear then why there are so many interpretations?

 

[First Responder]

If Quran is Clear then why there are so many interpretations?

Perhaps you have not understood the basic concept of what is happening in this world and the conflicts that exists inside and outside a person.
This world was never intended by Allah to be perfect, part of the test in this world is to figure out with the knowledge and intellect and make the choices.
The Quran is clear, it is the human crockedness that twists it to suite its own desires. The choice is ours to seek the truth or keep following our desires and continue to blame others for our own inaction or wrong deeds.
Allah has mentioned it in several places in the Quran that if Allah willed he could have made all humanity one nation, but he gave us this choice to decide on our own and we will be judged for this.

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

Perhaps you have not understood the basic concept of what is happening in this world and the conflicts that exists inside and outside a person.
This world was never intended by Allah to be perfect, part of the test in this world is to figure out with the knowledge and intellect and make the choices.
The Quran is clear, it is the human crockedness that twists it to suite its own desires. The choice is ours to seek the truth or keep following our desires and continue to blame others for our own inaction or wrong deeds.
Allah has mentioned it in several places in the Quran that if Allah willed he could have made all humanity one nation, but he gave us this choice to decide on our own and we will be judged for this.

Exactly that is my point! let us be judged by Allah no one has the right to impose his version of Islam upon Us

 

[First Responder]

Exactly that is my point! let us be judged by Allah no one has the right to impose his version of Islam upon Us

It is not a matter of anyones version of Islam, I am in USA right now there is constant debate what the founding fathers intended in the original constitution, there is extreme disagreement between the Republicans, Democrats and now the Liberaterians, they can never agree, when one comes in power they impose their own understanding of it. This does not mean they will stop implementing the constitution just because there is a disagreement.

I think we can disagree and still work out a way of implementing the Islamic deen suits the majority?

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

It is not a matter of anyones version of Islam, I am in USA right now there is constant debate what the founding fathers intended in the original constitution, there is extreme disagreement between the Republicans, Democrats and now the Liberaterians, they can never agree, when one comes in power they impose their own understanding of it. This does not mean they will stop implementing the constitution just because there is a disagreement.

I think we can disagree and still work out a way of implementing the Islamic deen suits the majority?

You are again missing the point, We are talking about God , If God wants to implement his law on earth then He can do it without the helping hands of the humans because He is all Powerful to do that!
And connection to God and spirituality cannot be achieved by following laws it achieved only through personal devotion
We see millions of people go to Hajj every year but no change in them!

 

[First Responder]

You are again missing the point, We are talking about God , If God wants to implement his law on earth then He can do it without the helping hands of the humans because He is all Powerful to do that!
And connection to God and spirituality cannot be achieved by following laws it achieved only through personal devotion
We see millions of people go to Hajj every year but no change in them!

You are exactly right, if Allah wants to he can do it without any human being, he does need any of us to do it. After all he is the creator of the entire Universe.
This is our test in this world, are we willing to make the sacrifices that are required in this struggle or not. As you mentioned, people are performing Umras and Hajj? Believe me if we are satisfied with any system that is exploiting the weak, it is my belief that all our Namaz, Hajj and umras are a waste

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

You are exactly right, if Allah wants to he can do it without any human being, he does need any of us to do it. After all he is the creator of the entire Universe.
This is our test in this world, are we willing to make the sacrifices that are required in this struggle or not. As you mentioned, people are performing Umras and Hajj? Believe me if we are satisfied with any system that is exploiting the weak, it is my belief that all our Namaz, Hajj and umras are a waste

Taking someone's life cannot be defined as Sacrifice
Anyway, What is Islamic economic system can u define it!

 

[First Responder]

Islam has given some guidelines.

There are some basic things in an Islamic economic system.
1) NO Interest
2) Property can be owned by people in this world, but it actually belongs to Allah, so he can use within the guidelines.

Then there are some specific rules and laws too lengthy and beyond my experitse

 

[First Responder]

Taking someone's life cannot be defined as Sacrifice
Anyway, What is Islamic economic system can u define it!

Islam has given some guidelines.

There are some basic things in an Islamic economic system.
1) NO Interest
2) Property can be owned by people in this world, but it actually belongs to Allah, so he can use within the guidelines.

Then there are some specific rules and laws too lengthy and beyond my experitse

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

Islam has given some guidelines.

There are some basic things in an Islamic economic system.
1) NO Interest
2) Property can be owned by people in this world, but it actually belongs to Allah, so he can use within the guidelines.

Then there are some specific rules and laws too lengthy and beyond my experitse

That is what I am asking .... It's not possible to have a No Interest banking in this globalized world, No Interest formula can only work in a small village based economy where everyone know each other but not in this advance globalized world

First u need to run a company with no interest formula to show the world that it works or at least ask some Muslim organization to do that

Anyway, Property is also owned by people in present economic system.... Can u provide me the guidelines how to use personal property according to Islam!

There are two Islamic countries Iran and Saudi Arabia ....... Can u define there Economic system...... Are these economies interest free?

 

[Not_Guilty]

it is true in Islam the ultimate authority belongs to ALLAH and hence in Islamic democracy all the decisions should be made in the light of quran and sunnah the democracy that we are seeing to today is only by the corrupt to the corrupt and for the corrupt if it was the true democracy then why is it only flourishing for the rich and not the poor so its obvious western democracy is not the answer

 

[Not_Guilty]

That is what I am asking .... It's not possible to have a No Interest banking in this globalized world, No Interest formula can only work in a small village based economy where everyone know each other but not in this advance globalized world

First u need to run a company with no interest formula to show the world that it works or at least ask some Muslim organization to do that

Anyway, Property is also owned by people in present economic system.... Can u provide me the guidelines how to use personal property according to Islam!

There are two Islamic countries Iran and Saudi Arabia ....... Can u define there Economic system...... Are these economies interest free?

in the no intrest world every one is equal hence no divisions and there will be more equality and the western agenda is individuality where no one should trust each other but you can trust banks and then bank and in return for that trust gain interest in the name of business profit

 

[First Responder]

That is what I am asking .... It's not possible to have a No Interest banking in this globalized world, No Interest formula can only work in a small village based economy where everyone know each other but not in this advance globalized world

First u need to run a company with no interest formula to show the world that it works or at least ask some Muslim organization to do that

Anyway, Property is also owned by people in present economic system.... Can u provide me the guidelines how to use personal property according to Islam!

There are two Islamic countries Iran and Saudi Arabia ....... Can u define there Economic system...... Are these economies interest free?

Right it is the responsibility of a muslim to struggle and try to establish a system that is interest free. I don't think any one with 2 cents worth of intelligence knows quite well that interest based economy is the basic tool to exploit the weak and poor. This system only benefits the rich, the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poor, this is why they have keep devising different ways of avoiding the depression that occurs every 40to 80 years leaving the poor poorer. There are plenty of western authors that have written on this subject.

As far as using it Ilamically is no mystery. Just don't do what is haram (Sharab, Zinna, etc), and there is a right on your property of the poor in your family and your parents, poor etc. Do not spend money to show off, all these things are discouraged in Islam. Some of them are punishable in this world and some on the day of judgement.

As far as Iran and Saudi Arabia, I don't think there is any country right now that can be called an Islamic state, they can claim what ever they want to

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

Right it is the responsibility of a muslim to struggle and try to establish a system that is interest free. I don't think any one with 2 cents worth of intelligence knows quite well that interest based economy is the basic tool to exploit the weak and poor. This system only benefits the rich, the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poor, this is why they have keep devising different ways of avoiding the depression that occurs every 40to 80 years leaving the poor poorer. There are plenty of western authors that have written on this subject.

As far as using it Ilamically is no mystery. Just don't do what is haram (Sharab, Zinna, etc), and there is a right on your property of the poor in your family and your parents, poor etc. Do not spend money to show off, all these things are discouraged in Islam. Some of them are punishable in this world and some on the day of judgement.

As far as Iran and Saudi Arabia, I don't think there is any country right now that can be called an Islamic state, they can claim what ever they want to

Thats what I am saying, Even in Islam a person is free to use his property as he wishes! u cannot force him. It is asked to do Sadqa or take care of your poor relatives but its not Obligatory! Its all depends on the compassion of property holder! Even in present economic system compassionate people give away money to relatives and poor!

As far as accumulation of money is concerned it is a big issue and not related to Interest! We can minimize it by increasing more and more taxes on Rich classes and use those taxes for the benefits of poor! Limiting people to a fixed threshold will kill the human spirit of innovation and progress!