Sharia punishments are the best to deter all sorts of crimes.

[Citizen X]

What do you wanna debate about?

Why is biden not calling Khan! ? ???

 

[Mulhid]

So there is nothing I can say or do that will change your mind, so why bother and I'm not really in the mood for a lengthy debate.

What I believe is based on evidence and not faith so I am always willing to change my mind if you show me evidence.

But I am also aware that Ghamdi arguments have bhondi logic behind them and even he is ashamed to debate it with skeptics.

 

[Mulhid]

When in reality there is no Islam in hadith.

If you discard the Hadiths and all the information that comes from it and just leave Quran. You won’t even know which religion this book belongs to and who it was revealed to. Even the 6 Kalimas are not found in there. No details on how much zakaat to give or how to perform the other 4 pillars of Islam.

The word Islam itself is mentioned less than 9 times and you can’t tell if it’s referring to Islam as a religion or Islam as in meaning peace. So from the Quran you can’t even tell what the religion is called.

These are very difficult questions for Quranists to answer and this is why Ahle Hadith do not take their bhondi arguments seriously.

There is a new hypothesis that Quran is an ancient book of a heretic Christian sect in Arabia, since Jesus is mentioned more than Hundred times. Muhammad is mentioned 4-5 times and Muhammad is not a name it’s a title that was given to Jesus in Bible so the Quran could be referring to Jesus. It goes to show how vague the Quran is and without the Hadiths you could literally take it as a Christian book.

 

[Taalib-e-Haq]

Brutal punishments do not deter crime, they lead to more violent crimes. Hardened criminals are not detered by punishments.

And even if you want harsh punishments, you can do that without Sharia law because Sharia law comes with its baggage such as legalising slavery and buying and selling of sex slaves, womens testimony being equal to half of man and women being second class citizens.

Very respectfully, brother, your analysis is factually, historically and intellectually incorrect. You are misinformed on the legalities on Sharia Law and the Quranic Laws that govern it.

It seems you are parroting the age old rhetoric of imperial era.

You can compare crime stats of the US, and Japan for murders, gunpoint robberies and rapes with the rest of the world, specifically the UAE, Saudi and Oman.

Where is the evidence for legalized enslavement of man or woman in Islam? Islam's philosophy is to the contrary. Freeing of slaves is a virtue only found in Islam.

My question to you. Women are second class citizens in Islam compared to what?

 

[Citizen X]

If you discard the Hadiths and all the information that comes from it and just leave Quran. You won’t even know which religion this book belongs to and who it was revealed to. Even the 6 Kalimas are not found in there. No details on how much zakaat to give or how to perform the other 4 pillars of Islam.

The word Islam itself is mentioned less than 9 times and you can’t tell if it’s referring to Islam as a religion or Islam as in meaning peace. So from the Quran you can’t even tell what the religion is called.

These are very difficult questions for Quranists to answer and this is why Ahle Hadith do not take their bhondi arguments seriously.

There is a new hypothesis that Quran is an ancient book of a heretic Christian sect in Arabia, since Jesus is mentioned more than Hundred times. Muhammad is mentioned 4-5 times and Muhammad is not a name it’s a title that was given to Jesus in Bible so the Quran could be referring to Jesus. It goes to show how vague the Quran is and without the Hadiths you could literally take it as a Christian book.

Like I said I'm in no mood for an argument specially with someone who already has his mind made up. And what you have mentioned are just theories among many I've heard over the years, none of them hold water. Lame attempts by Islamophobes and orientalists to discredit Islam. Wasn't the first, won't be the last.

And everything is clearly mentioned in the Quran. There is no such thing as the 6 kalimas or fixed amount of zakat etc etc all this is just dogma created by the mullahs and moulvis. And what you are referring to is the sunnah, sunnah and hadith are two different things. I'll give you the same very simple challenge I give to all. Find me one person from over a billion muslims who has learnt to pray one times prayer from strictly reading the hadith only. Just one from over a billion Muslims

And I'm not a Quranist, I've read the entire Sahih Bhukari cover to cover and appreciate it and it is a vital source of knowledge and encourage every muslim to read it. But there is no jurisprudence in it.

And you are what today passes of as Islam is mostly based on hadith, but hadith is not gods message. Hadith is more like biography and historical record

 

[Mulhid]

And what you are referring to is the sunnah, sunnah and hadith are two different things

What’s the difference between Sunnah and Hadith and where do they come from?

 

[Citizen X]

What’s the difference between Sunnah and Hadith and where do they come from?

Sunnah is the living tradition of the prophet passed down from generation to generation. While hadith is the times and life of the prophet as seen by 100s if not 1000s of men across his life and then recorded some 2 to 3 centuries after he passed. Majority of them khabar e wahid

Thats why you cannot find a single person on this planet who has learned to pray from the hadith, he or she was taught by their parents, relative or some teacher. i.e passed down from generation to generation. i.e sunnah

 

[Mulhid]

he or she was taught by their parents, relative or some teacher. i.e passed down from generation to generation. i.e sunnah

Thats the part that I cant grasp.

We can both agree that Cultures, languages and rituals evolve over time. Which is why oral and ritual traditions are not a reliable method to transmit information, hence the importance to compile Quran and have it in written form.

My questions is this: How do we verify that its the same rituals and same sunnah that people were following at time of Muhammad without having it in written form?

 

[Citizen X]

Thats the part that I cant grasp.

We can both agree that Cultures, languages and rituals evolve over time. Which is why oral and ritual traditions are not a reliable method to transmit information, hence the importance to compile Quran and have it in written form.

My questions is this: How do we verify that its the same rituals and same sunnah that people were following at time of Muhammad without having it in written form?

Mass transmission. It's not like only a few 100 men were doing it. This was being done in the 1000s, then millions and now billon

 

[Tit4Tat]

Thats the part that I cant grasp.

We can both agree that Cultures, languages and rituals evolve over time. Which is why oral and ritual traditions are not a reliable method to transmit information, hence the importance to compile Quran and have it in written form.

My questions is this: How do we verify that its the same rituals and same sunnah that people were following at time of Muhammad without having it in written form?

interesting comments.....

Can you please describe what exactly will Sharia look like once implemented,
how will religious interpretations of different sects impact shariah law formation as Pakistan is a very diversified country when it comes to different sects, fiqs, schools etc
what will be the punishments for common crimes like theft etc? hand amputation ?

 

[Mulhid]

Can you please describe what exactly will Sharia look like once implemented,
how will religious interpretations of different sects impact shariah law formation as Pakistan is a very diversified country when it comes to different sects, fiqs, schools etc
what will be the punishments for common crimes like theft etc? hand amputation ?

Bro there are certain things in which there is a consensus of ulema in Pakistan regardless of sect.

I cannot compile all the laws here but there are certain things we can be sure of:

1. Quran allows slavery so buying and selling human beings will have to be legalized again.
2. Punishment for adultury, lashing for unmarried couples and stoning to death for married person zina with someone he or she is not married to.
3. Legalization of sexual slavery/concubinage. According to Quran men are allowed to have sex with their female slaves even if they are not married to (even if the slave girl is married to another man). Basically legalizing rape. There is a very interesting show on this with Mubashir Luqman where he couldnt believe it when Molvi was telling him this.
4. Testimony of woman will be equal to half of man. In Hadith it says because Muhammad said women are deficient to men in intelligence and in Deen (because they get periods). If one woman forgets what happened, the other woman will remind her.
5. Theft, I am not 100% sure whether there is consensus on amputations.
6. Wali/Guardianship, its mentioned in Quran that men are guardians of women and in Saudi they need to have a male with them when they go out and in Iran this is applied to state, so I am not sure about consensus here either
7. Adult breastfeeding, there is Sahih Hadith and recent fatwas in Egypt that women who work around non-mehram men have to breastfeed those men to make them mehram .

Overall if Shariah is brought to Pakistan, it will be very close to what was practised by ISIS in Syria/Iraq and Taliban in 1996.

 

[Tit4Tat]

Mass transmission. It's not like only a few 100 men were doing it. This was being done in the 1000s, then millions and now billon

this often crosses my mind, if what we are told(religious rules) not entirely correct, then who and what should we refer to for correct instructions to live day to day life,
can we drink a bit of wine? can we eat mcdonalds from non halal country, how much head should a woman cover, are sunnats in namaz must or optional, is mass breeding of chicken and other animals and then just going by the routine and slaughtering them good, can a house be mortgaged for personal use, can a student work at a super market selling non-halal?

 

[Mulhid]

Mass transmission. It's not like only a few 100 men were doing it. This was being done in the 1000s, then millions and now billon

Just like every other religion, tradition, culture, language on Earth and they still evolved/changed. Every single one of them.

The more times something is transmitted the more likely there are to be errors. There is an interesting game we used to play in school in which you have to whisper a story into someones ear and they whisper to the person next to them and so on and try their best not to change the story and keep it as close to original as possible, when it reaches the last person the story is totally different from what the first person said. In psychology its called snowball effect.

 

[Mulhid]

this often crosses my mind, if what we are told(religious rules) not entirely correct, then who and what should we refer to for correct instructions to live day to day life,
can we drink a bit of wine? can we eat mcdonalds from non halal country, how much head should a woman cover, are sunnats in namaz must or optional, is mass breeding of chicken and other animals and then just going by the routine and slaughtering them good, can a house be mortgaged for personal use, can a student work at a super market selling non-halal?

I dont blame you. Unlike Christianity and Judaism where you just read 4-5 small books in a month you know everything about the religion.

But in Islam you Volumes upon volumes of Sahih Bukhari, then you have Ibn Ishaq's Prophet's Biography which in several volumes as well, Tabqat Ibn Saad, and Tabari History of Arabs.

Even if you remove Tabqat Ibn Saad and just read one biography by Ibn Ishaq/Ibn Kathir (atleast 10 volumes), History of Prophets and Kings by Tabari(40 thick volumes 16 for Islam and 24 on Arabia before and after Islam) and Sahih Bukhari (9 volumes with over 7000 hadiths), it will take you atleast 3-4 years if you read for 4-8 hours a day. And this is just reading, not studying or making notes and this is minimum required reading to learn Islam and its rules.

How many people do you think have read the even just the Quran with understanding translation in Pakistan? Now imagine that none of what we know about Islam or Muhammad comes from Quran. People are basically at mercy of Mullahs to understand Islam. This why they have so much power and you are not even allowed to criticize them or the Islam they are preaching you even though what they are preaching could be totally wrong. This is why Pakistan is in such a hole, we are not allowed to address the problems in our society or we will be charged with blasphemy, we cannot bandage the wounds and the open wounds attract more flies and get even worse. Its sad but thats the reality of why we are so behind the rest of the world.

 

[Citizen X]

Just like every other religion, tradition, culture, language on Earth and they still evolved/changed. Every single one of them.

The more times something is transmitted the more likely there are to be errors. There is an interesting game we used to play in school in which you have to whisper a story into someones ear and they whisper to the person next to them and so on and try their best not to change the story and keep it as close to original as possible, when it reaches the last person the story is totally different from what the first person said. In psychology its called snowball effect.

The game is called Chinese whispers, but thats why I said it wasn't just a few but 1000s and millions. Very miniscule chances of change. Even if a few things go here and there the essence of worship is not lost. Allah s.w.t the rehman and rahim is not that petty contrary to what mullahs will have you believe.

 

[Citizen X]

I dont blame you. Unlike Christianity and Judaism where you just read 4-5 small books in a month you know everything about the religion.

But in Islam you Volumes upon volumes of Sahih Bukhari, then you have Ibn Ishaq's Prophet's Biography which in several volumes as well, Tabqat Ibn Saad, and Tabari History of Arabs.

Even if you remove Tabqat Ibn Saad and just read one biography by Ibn Ishaq, History of Tabari and Bukhari Hadiths, it will take you 3-4 years if you read for 4-8 hours a day. And this is just reading, not studying or making notes and this is minimum required reading to learn Islam and its rules.

How many people do you think have read the even just the Quran with understanding translation in Pakistan? Now imagine that none of what we know about Islam or Muhammad comes from Quran. People are basically at mercy of Mullahs to understand Islam. This why they have so much power and you are not even allowed to criticize them or the Islam they are preaching you even though what they are preaching could be totally wrong. This is why Pakistan is in such a hole, we are not allowed to address the problems in our society or we will be charged with blasphemy, we cannot bandage the wounds and the open wounds attract more flies and get even worse. Its sad but thats the reality of why we are so behind the rest of the world.

Well done, thats exactly my point. Allah s.w.t revealed one book but we instead of listening, reading and understanding that book end up chasing because of these moulvies and mullahs literally 100s of books written by men. I think the last time I counted there were 52 books of hadith. Counting versions like Bhukhari and Muslim as one book.

When Allah revealed only one book which is complete. We don't need anything else when it comes to Islam.

 

[Mulhid]

When Allah revealed only one book which is complete. We don't need anything else when it comes to Islam.

If Quran was complete like Chritian Bible or Hewbrew Bible there wouldnt be any need for Hadith or Ibn Ishaq.

And you wouldnt need to rely oral/ritual traditions like Sunnah which are even less reliable than written traditions such as Hadiths.

Quran seems not only like incomplete but it also seems who ever compiled it did in a hurry under extreme time pressure. One verse will talk about spirits then next line will talk about ants and the line right after will talk about Moses. Its so bizarre. Banda jaye to kahan jaye haha.

 

[Citizen X]

1. Quran allows slavery

It tolerates it and highly discourages it. Being a young religion with a few followers it automatically did not want to exclude large chunks of population from it. Remember the US went to war with itself over slavery, I hear so many times even today. Man I could never be Muslim because it bans ham or it bans alcohol.

2. Punishment for adultury, lashing for unmarried couples and stoning to death for married person zina with someone he or she is not married to.

Taken from hadith not from the Quran.

3.

see 1

4. Testimony of woman will be equal to half of man. In Hadith it says because Muhammad said women are deficient to men in intelligence and in Deen (because they get periods). If one woman forgets what happened, the other woman will remind her.

Again hadith not from the Quran.

5. Theft, I am not 100% sure whether there is consensus on amputations.

This is for professional criminals and robbers who make a living out of crime. Not like a small child stole a choclate bar. Or a poor hungry person stole some bread.

6. Wali/Guardianship, its mentioned in Quran that men are guardians of women and in Saudi they need to have a male with them when they go out and in Iran this is applied to state, so I am not sure about consensus here either

Thats not the kind of wali that is mentioned in the Quran. That is sauds own wahabi interpretation.

7. Adult breastfeeding, there is Sahih Hadith and recent fatwas in Egypt that women who work around non-mehram men have to breastfeed those men to make them mehram .

Once again nonsense hadith.


Like I said the religion practiced my most today is not Islam but moulvi hadithism

 

[Citizen X]

there wouldnt be any need for Hadith or Ibn Ishaq.

There isn't any need for any hadith.

And you wouldnt need to rely oral/ritual traditions like Sunnah which are even less reliable than written

That's your opinion but in my opinion something practiced five times daily by millions is more solid than any hadith.

 

[Tit4Tat]

Bro there are certain things in which there is a consensus of ulema in Pakistan regardless of sect.

I cannot compile all the laws here but there are certain things we can be sure of:

1. Quran allows slavery so buying and selling human beings will have to be legalized again.
2. Punishment for adultury, lashing for unmarried couples and stoning to death for married person zina with someone he or she is not married to.
3. Legalization of sexual slavery/concubinage. According to Quran men are allowed to have sex with their female slaves even if they are not married to (even if the slave girl is married to another man). Basically legalizing rape. There is a very interesting show on this with Mubashir Luqman where he couldnt believe it when Molvi was telling him this.
4. Testimony of woman will be equal to half of man. In Hadith it says because Muhammad said women are deficient to men in intelligence and in Deen (because they get periods). If one woman forgets what happened, the other woman will remind her.
5. Theft, I am not 100% sure whether there is consensus on amputations.
6. Wali/Guardianship, its mentioned in Quran that men are guardians of women and in Saudi they need to have a male with them when they go out and in Iran this is applied to state, so I am not sure about consensus here either
7. Adult breastfeeding, there is Sahih Hadith and recent fatwas in Egypt that women who work around non-mehram men have to breastfeed those men to make them mehram .

Overall if Shariah is brought to Pakistan, it will be very close to what was practised by ISIS in Syria/Iraq and Taliban in 1996.

so wait a minute, you are opposing sharia now or you are favouring above stated regulations?