Sharia punishments are the best to deter all sorts of crimes.

[Mulhid]

The game is called Chinese whispers, but thats why I said it wasn't just a few but 1000s and millions.

Thats the point of the game that the more there are the more changes happen so its going against your point. Thousands is even worse than 100s.

 

[Mulhid]

Very miniscule chances of change. Even if a few things go here and there the essence of worship is not lost. Allah s.w.t the rehman and rahim is not that petty contrary to what mullahs will have you believe.

Thats not the point bro, even with written traditions there will be miniscule changes and I dont expect anything to be 100% preserved even if you recorded videos of Muslims from 6th century.

The point is that rituals and oral traditions are less reliable than oral traditions because the more people that its transmitted to and the longer it goes on the more changes will happen in it.

 

[Citizen X]

Thats the point of the game that the more there are the more changes happen so its going against your point. Thousands is even worse than 100s.

The key word being whisper. Not something you do out in the open in congregation of 100s

If you go in a mosque today and start praying in a totally different or weird way, you might get away with it once or twice but 3rd or 4th time someone will come up to you ask or correct you.

And this is why hadith are totally unreliable edicts and jurisprudence because they were first penned down 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet passed. It's like a game of chinese whispers that lasted centuries.

 

[Citizen X]

Thats not the point bro, even with written traditions there will be miniscule changes and I dont expect anything to be 100% preserved even if you recorded videos of Muslims from 6th century.

The point is that rituals and oral traditions are less reliable than oral traditions because the more people that its transmitted to and the longer it goes on the more changes will happen in it.

And like I said it really doesn't matter. Allah is not a petty God, if you read the Quran, whats the biggest thing you take from it? Doing these rituals, or to believe in him, that he has no partners or equals and to believe in the day of judgement. That is the point that is driven home the most over and over again.

Not dogma and rituals. I'll be totally honest with you. I haven't prayed in a couple of years because I feel this is not what Allah wants or requires from us. In Pakistan 1000s if not millions of namazis, yet we are one of the most morally bankrupt nations, so clearly these prayers are not helping. Just praying 5 times a day, having a big beard, shalwar above your ankles full 30 fasts and taraweeh, zakat, khatam and khairat but full time corrupt fraudia 0 ethics and treat everyone like second grade sub human shit.

Islam is about justice, purity, empathy and helping and treating his creations with respect and care. We just concentrate on the dogma and rituals and totally forget what actual Islam is all about. Basically being a good kind human beings who is helpful to others.

 

[Mulhid]

The key word being whisper. Not something you do out in the open in congregation of 100s

Yes in congretition of hundreds but how people pray in a mosque in Indonesia are isolated from people praying in a mosque in Morocco is no different in principle than a whisper. Thats the whole point of the game. Its not the case that all 1.5 billion Muslims pray in same mosque same why you are not saying the story out to all the kids in open. And this is not even accounting for time and language factor.

If you go in a mosque today and start praying in a totally different or weird way, you might get away with it once or twice but 3rd or 4th time someone will come up to you ask or correct you.

Thats not how cultural evolution happens. You do not suddenly praying in a totally different way. Small undetectable changes happen and over generations they slowly evolve into big changes that people do not even notice.

The only way big changes can happen is if you see Abbasids taking over from Ummayads and then Fatimids taking over, they can completely change the religious traditions and after a few generations no one will ever know because it was never written down etc.

For all we know the Sunnah and Hadiths written by Abbasids may have nothing to do with Muhammad and Ummayads. Why are there no writings or Quran copies or written Hadiths from Ummayad dynasty and the only ones we get are from Abbasids who were sworn enemies of Ummayads? This is one of biggest question marks on Islam that no scholar can answer.

Which is why I say rituals and oral tradtions are as unreliable as hadiths and arguably even less. And you wouldnt need any of these written/oral/ritual traditions if Quran was complete and we would be having this discussion.

 

[Mulhid]

Not dogma and rituals. I'll be totally honest with you. I haven't prayed in a couple of years

5 times prayer is not mentioned in Quran.

 

[Citizen X]

For all we know the Sunnah and Hadiths written by Abbasids may have nothing to do with Muhammad and Ummayads. Which is why I say rituals and oral tradtions are as unreliable as hadiths and arguably even less.

Hence people like me don't rely on them or seek our deen from them.

Quran was complete and we would be having this discussion.

The Quran is complete.

Your arguing from the wrong end. That why all this hadith and sunnah is not in the Quran hence it is incomplete. I'm telling you hadith has nothing to with Islam. Sunnah is just a guide, I'll even accept your argument that its a rough guide.

And the Quran came as a guidance and not as a instruction manual Islam 101 Chapter one How to do woodo, step 1. Get it? Imagine how huge it would be if it was like that. People don't read it as it is now. Which also strengthens the point that everything Allah wanted us to know and do is in the Quran so people looking in hadith and tafseers are just fooling themselves

 

[Citizen X]

5 times prayer is not mentioned in Quran.

Tell me something I don't know.

 

[Mulhid]

It tolerates it and highly discourages it.

But it allows it. Zina is haram but rape of slaves is halal. You do not see any moral contradiction here?

Being a young religion with a few followers it automatically did not want to exclude large chunks of population from it.

So creater of 100 billion galaxies did not outlaw buying and selling of human beings because he was afraid of the opinion of several thousand desert peasants and the impact this would have on millions of people who will suffer from this for the next 1400 years until West forces Arabs to ban slavery in 1960s?

Remember the US went to war with itself over slavery

US is irrelavent here, we cannot compare the creator of 100 billion galaxies to US.

Man I could never be Muslim because it bans ham or it bans alcohol.

And yet this did not deter Arabs/Non Arab converts of that time who ate Pork and drank wine?

And if slavery would deter a few thousand Arabs at that time is it worth the suffering that millions went through until 1960s because of this decision to not ban it to supposedly convert a few thousand people?

 

[Mulhid]

so wait a minute, you are opposing sharia now or you are favouring above stated regulations?

I personally believe that almost all Hadiths are lies and fabrication of Abbasids. They made them up to serve a political purpose in their time and to mould a completely new religion.

I do believe Muhammad was a real historical person but what we know about him comes from Abbasids non of which can be verified. The evidence we have found so far contradict what Abbasids recorded.

The Islam that we follow today is probably a very alien religion to Muhammad and Ali. The word Muslim, Khalifa and Islam were not used by Muhammad and are barely mentioned in Quran.

They were called Momineen and Ameerul Momineen and its not clear what the religion was called maybe the movement of believers/momineen.

The movement's main ideology was belief in one God and piety. So even if someone was Christian or Jew, as long as they believe in Oneness and believe in Piety and good deeds, they were regarded as among the momineen and believers of the movement. The concept of Jizya as we are taught is also not true.

Story of Karbala is probably an exaggeration and propoganda tool used by Abbasids against Umayyads. The massacre of Banu Qurayza probably didnt happen. And the real Muhammad was not a monstar as Abbaids portray him in Seerat Rasul.

The Qurans we found from Ummayad time are different from Abbasids Quran. There are no Harakaat in Umayyad Qurans. The verses found are same but certain verses in Abbasid Qurans are not found in Umayyad Qurans. Which means there is possibility that Abbasids later added verses in there. Caliph Mamun is alleged to have added Suran Ma'un in Quran.

The Arabic of Quran Script is not Hejazi (its not from Mecca or Medina) but rather its Kufic Script. Kufa is city where Ali ruled from. Kufa's name in that time interestingly was Hira.

There is alot of material to be unpacked here but the point is that the history that Abbasids left us with does not match with ground reality of what is being found by linguists, archaeologists and historians. And there are some very shocks coming to Muslim world soon. Only the top level scholars are aware of this and if it reaches the public I dont think they will be able to manage the revelations.

 

[Citizen X]

But it allows it.

For those times in those conditions

So creater of 100 billion galaxies did not outlaw buying and selling of human beings because he was afraid of the opinion of several thousand desert peasants and the impact this would have on millions of people who will suffer from this for the next 1400 years until West forces Arabs to ban slavery in 1960s?

Its called free will. If he wanted he could have made us all 100% devout Muslims who did nothing but worship him 24/7

And yet this did not deter Arabs/Non Arab converts of that time who ate Pork and drank wine?

Doesn't deter many today also.

And if slavery would deter a few thousand Arabs

Populations were tiny compared to today, specially in the desert lands. Even the deterrent of a few 1000s could literally have halted the spread of Islam.

 

[Citizen X]

And there are some very shocks coming to Muslim world soon. Only the top level scholars are aware of this and if it reaches the public I dont think they will be able to manage the revelations.

And what are these if you don't mind sharing it with us.

 

[Mulhid]

For those times in those conditions

Thats just a rationalization. What happened to Quran being a guidance for all times for all mankind. Or is there fine print in Quran that we are not aware of LOL

 

[Citizen X]

The evidence we have found so far contradict what Abbasids recorded.

And what is that? What is this evidence "we" have found?

 

[Mulhid]

And what are these if you don't mind sharing it with us.

The traditional narrative of Islam as recorded by Abbasids of Hadiths, Biographies etc does not match what historians, archaeologists, linguists and geologists are finding on ground. Islamic history has to be re-written.

 

[Mulhid]

And what is that? What is this evidence "we" have found?

Oldest manuscripts of Quran, Rock Inscriptions, coinage, direction of mosques, quranic verses on the walls of mosques. History written by other sources in that time not matching with Abbasids accounts.

Not to mention that there is zero evidence supporting Abbasid records, constitution of Medina and all the documents such as Muhammad's letters to Byzantine and Persion turned out to be forgeries.

 

[Citizen X]

Thats just a rationalization. What happened to Quran being a guidance for all times for all mankind. Or is there fine print in Quran that we are not aware of LOL

You really need to read the Quran outside of select verses from Islamophobe and anti muslim sites Quran talks about the past present and future. It talks to men of those time. It talks to Muhammad.

Since majority of you atheist are obsessed with this slavery issue since you think this is your smoking gun evidence and eventually all arguments come to these two points and no matter what is said you lot keep revolving around them, like I said at the get go, whats the point when your mind is already made up and no matter what I say or do will change it.

Let me ask you where it says its a must that you must have slaves and concubines? Where does it make it fard. The Quran was talking to the people of those times in their situations, there were no jails or penitentiaries at that time, prisoners were either executed or turned into slaves. So instead of out right banning it and turning away 1000s it highly discouraged it and make freeing them one of the most noblest act one could do.

But you want to compare the world of 1400 years ago to 21th century rules and laws. When you're own moral ethics and laws of less than a 100 years ago are at odds with your 21th century

 

[Citizen X]

does not match what historians, archaeologists, linguists and geologists are finding on ground.

Thats what I want to know, what are they "finding on the ground"

 

[Mulhid]

But you want to compare the world of 1400 years ago to 21th century rules and laws. When you're own moral ethics and laws of less than a 100 years ago are at odds with your 21th century

Calling Quran a guidance for all mankind and all times and then complaining about comparing 7th century to 21st century is a contradiction dont you think?

If slavery was allowed then it should be allowed now as well. Unless you are saying Quran contradicts itself.

 

[Citizen X]

Oldest manuscripts of Quran, Rock Inscriptions, coinage, direction of mosques, quranic verses on the walls of mosques. History written by other sources in that time not matching with Abbasids accounts.

Not to mention that there is zero evidence supporting Abbasid records, constitution of Medina and all the documents such as Muhammad's letters to Byzantine and Persion turned out to be forgeries.

So at best, there are historical record discrepancies. Ancient history is full of it, hell even modern history is full of it. Hardly shocking and earth shattering.

Islam has nothing to with history. They are independent of each other. Prophet Muhammad in his life time at the biggest gathering in the region declared that the religion is complete and when he died shortly after that any possibilities of anything new coming went with him. What happened after that has no effect on Islam or change anything.